Why dont SDA's and Sabbath keepers also keep the Feast Days of Leviticus 23 too???

[MoreCoffee]

mmksparbud,

This thread is about seventh day keepers and why they don't observe the feast days of Leviticus 23 too.

Your post is an attempt to derail the discussion.

 

[Godisgood12]

There has been alot of threads lately about Christians not keeping the Sabbath, so my questions to the SDA's and other Sabbath keepers that thinks Sunday is so wrong and that they are following the commands of God, do you keep the Sabbaths listed in Lev 23 along with the weekly Sabbath too?

If not, why, as they are commands of God too.
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Leviticus 23

Feasts of the Lord

23 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the Lord, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
The Sabbath

3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

The Passover and Unleavened Bread

4 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”

The Feast of Firstfruits

9 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And you shall offer on that day, when you wave the sheaf, a male lamb of the first year, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the Lord. 13 Its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to the Lord, for a sweet aroma; and its drink offering shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14 You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

The Feast of Weeks

15 ‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord. 17 You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the Lord. 18 And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as a burnt offering to the Lord, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord. 19 Then you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20 The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22 ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the Lord your God.’”

The Feast of Trumpets

23 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. 25 You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.’”

The Day of Atonement

26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.”

The Feast of Tabernacles

33 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 34 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. 35 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. 36 For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.
37 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the Lord, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— 38 besides the Sabbaths of the Lord, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the Lord.
39 ‘Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the Lord for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest. 40 And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41 You shall keep it as a feast to the Lord for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All who are native Israelites shall dwell in booths, 43 that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.’”
44 So Moses declared to the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.

Hey wait.

I never read about throwing mercy and love out the window for condemning others.

 

[Godisgood12]

Why? Is it not sabbathy enough for you?

What is "sabbathy"?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why? Is it not sabbathy enough for you?

What is "sabbathy"?

It's a Hebrew word for resty

 

[Godisgood12]

Please Read through all the thread before you make biased statements like this. You clearly jumped in at the end and have not read it.


This is a valid question with many scriptures to back it.

I have read about loving thy neighbor. I however havn't ever read about calling sda's brainwashed.

 

[from scratch]

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108











I. The Sabbath Day
2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92
2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93
2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94
2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.
2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man too ought to "rest" and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97
2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."102






It's not as though Catholic church does not recognize the Sabbath, they very much do--they have transfered the solomnity of it to Sunday--that's all.

So, if they have still insisted on keeping the new sabbath--why do they not keep the rest Levitical laws also--they transfered the 7th day holiness to the 1st day (or what they call the 8th day)--they can certainly then keep the rest of Leviticus as others have said we should. How does a man make something holy that God never did???

Are calling to get others to abandon their faith (belief system) and join yours?

 

[from scratch]

Do you yourself believe Christian non Fri-Sat sabbath keepers will go to hell?

http://www.christianforums.com/t5037325-3/
Non Sabbath-Keepers go to hell?



.

&*%## NO!!!!--I firmly believe that many 7thday keepers will be lost and many 1st day or what day keepers will be saved---God searches the heart--He knows who loves Him, and who obeys Him out of love--there will be those who have never heard the Name Jesus who will be there--How??--Because they heard His voice and followed what He told them. Just because you keep sabbath does not entitle anyone to sit next to Christ!--Those who teach that are wrong no mater what faith they are. What we do we do for love of God. At the same time, if you have been shown truth, and you purposely reject it--it's not convenient, it doesn't fit into your lifestyle, it would alianate your friends--whatever--then you stand in opposition to His spoken word to you.

That's great. You've testified. Now what? The pro law people here aren't defending the Sabbath, they're demanding others keep the Sabbath. They're condemning people who worship on Sunday as idolaters.

"It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" {6T 356.4}

The Sabbath is the golden clasp that unites God and His people.


It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord.

From My Life Today - Page 292
Ellen G. White Estate: Daily Devotional - My Life Today

You can't say your church doesn't teach this. No one hears happy Sunday while many hear happy Sabbath.

 

[from scratch]

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday

Does nobody get this??

Yes you're using it to condemn people who worship on Sunday.

 

[SAAN]

Claiming sda is brainwashed is attacking sda's.

And please stop threatening me.

That was to one person who threw insults at me. IT WAS TO HIM ONLY. Stop being so sensitive and no one is threatening you. Nothing in that comment was directed to you.

If I came across as threatening you or offended you, I sincerely apologize, but the SDA's have been on here having a field day condemning Sunday Christians and not one SDA has jumped and said please stop will all the condemnation, but the second we ask a similar question in return thats a absolute no no.

 

[from scratch]

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125


This observance of the new sabbath should be sought by legal legislation. We in no way teach that we should ever make the 7th day a legal day of observance.

That's what it'll take to get your way. Its been done in Loma Linda by the SDA with the post office.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106
Sunday

Does nobody get this??

Yes you're using it to condemn people who worship on Sunday.

Aside from getting some paranoia from reading "The Great Controversy" and some other books that denounce the Catholic Church without understanding what Catholics teach and believe and that are steeped in inaccurate dishonest and deceiving "history" I am not sure what one is supposed to get.

 

[SAAN]

LETS REFRESH WHY THIS QUESTION IS BEING ASKED

Many have pointed out in many threads that Paul, Jesus, and all the apostles still kept the Sabbath after the death of Jesus and they were correct if you are to view the scriptures in context and dont try to twist anything. But at the same time Paul and all the apostles and Gentile New Testament Christians also kept Gods Feast days as well too. So since the Sabbathg is still to be observed, so are the Holy days as they hold equal importance as the Sabbaths in Lev 23


1 Corinthians 11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

-Paul say we are to imitate him like he did Christ, so lets see what Paul did. Here are examples of 5 of the 7 feasts being kept after the death of Jesus
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Day of Pentecost
[FONT=&quot]Acts 2:1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-How did the receive the holy spirit after Jesus died? They were observing the Day of Petencost that Sunday.[/FONT]
Acts 20:16
16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.

-Paul was hurry to observe this feast and Jesus has been dead for years now but he still observing it.
1 Corinthians 16:8
8 But I will tarry in Ephesus until Pentecost.

-Paul is keeping this feast in Ephesus.

Passover and Unleavened Bread
1 Corinthians 5:7-8
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[a] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

-Paul here is telling the New Testament Christians to keep the Passover and Unleavened bread

1 Corinthians 11:23-25
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;[a] this is My body which is broken[b] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

-Paul is describing the New Testament Passover service, that Jesus established with His disciples on the night before His crucifixion. From the above passages we see that Paul commanded the Gentiles in the city of Corinth to keep Gods Holy Days. And they were all done without sacrifices, so that cant be used as an excuse either.

Acts 12:1-4
12 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.

-Verse 3 shows that they were keeping the Passover and Unleavened bread


Feast of Taberncales
Acts 18:20-21
20 When they asked him to stay a longer time with them, he did not consent, 21 but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem;[a] but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.


The Day of Atonement
Acts 27:9-10

9 Now when much time had been spent, and sailing was now dangerous because the Fast was already over, Paul advised them, 10 saying, “Men, I perceive that this voyage will end with disaster and much loss, not only of the cargo and ship, but also our lives.”

-Paul is referring to the Fast on the Day of Atonement. Luke wrote the book of Acts many years after Christ’s death and he referred to the Day of Atonement calling it the “Fast”



So since it has been pointed out that sin is transgression of the law and the law is the 1st 5 books of the bible, Lev 23 lays out the Sabbaths that God said are to be observed as they are HIS holy days, not the Jews.


So how can Christians be in sin for not keeping the Sabbath, yet SDA's are not in sin for not keeping Gods holy days which I just proved were clearly observed by the New Testament Church years after Jesus death and were never done away with?


Like saying my sin is not as bad as yours!!!

 

[from scratch]

LETS REFRESH WHY THIS QUESTION IS BEING ASKED

Many have pointed out in many threads that Paul, Jesus, and all the apostles still kept the Sabbath after the death of Jesus and they were correct if you are to view the scriptures in context and dont try to twist anything. But at the same time Paul and all the apostles and Gentile New Testament Christians also kept Gods Feast days as well too. So since the Sabbathg is still to be observed, so are the Holy days as they hold equal importance as the Sabbaths in Lev 23


1 Corinthians 11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

-Paul say we are to imitate him like he did Christ, so lets see what Paul did. Here are examples of 5 of the 7 feasts being kept after the death of Jesus
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Day of Pentecost
[FONT=&quot]Acts 2:1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-How did the receive the holy spirit after Jesus died? They were observing the Day of Petencost that Sunday.[/FONT]
Acts 20:16
16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.

-Paul was hurry to observe this feast and Jesus has been dead for years now but he still observing it.
1 Corinthians 16:8
8 But I will tarry in Ephesus until Pentecost.

-Paul is keeping this feast in Ephesus.

Passover and Unleavened Bread
1 Corinthians 5:7-8
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[a] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

-Paul here is telling the New Testament Christians to keep the Passover and Unleavened bread

1 Corinthians 11:23-25
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;[a] this is My body which is broken[b] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

-Paul is describing the New Testament Passover service, that Jesus established with His disciples on the night before His crucifixion. From the above passages we see that Paul commanded the Gentiles in the city of Corinth to keep Gods Holy Days. And they were all done without sacrifices, so that cant be used as an excuse either.

Acts 12:1-4
12 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.

-Verse 3 shows that they were keeping the Passover and Unleavened bread


Feast of Taberncales
Acts 18:20-21
20 When they asked him to stay a longer time with them, he did not consent, 21 but took leave of them, saying, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem;[a] but I will return again to you, God willing.” And he sailed from Ephesus.


The Day of Atonement
Acts 27:9-10

9 Now when much time had been spent, and sailing was now dangerous because the Fast was already over, Paul advised them, 10 saying, “Men, I perceive that this voyage will end with disaster and much loss, not only of the cargo and ship, but also our lives.”

-Paul is referring to the Fast on the Day of Atonement. Luke wrote the book of Acts many years after Christ’s death and he referred to the Day of Atonement calling it the “Fast”



So since it has been pointed out that sin is transgression of the law and the law is the 1st 5 books of the bible, Lev 23 lays out the Sabbaths that God said are to be observed as they are HIS holy days, not the Jews.


So how can Christians be in sin for not keeping the Sabbath, yet SDA's are not in sin for not keeping Gods holy days which I just proved were clearly observed by the New Testament Church years after Jesus death and were never done away with?


Like saying my sin is not as bad as yours!!!

The one doing this were Jews. They also demanded the Gentile Christians observe Judaism on pain of not having salvation. We know that salvation doesn't come by observing or not observing the law. The largely Gentile Church worshipped on Sunday which the Jews objected to and is partly the reason for the Jerusalem council in which the Apostles didn't require the Gentiles to keep the law or the Sabbath.

 

[SAAN]

The one doing this were Jews. They also demanded the Gentile Christians observe Judaism on pain of not having salvation. We know that salvation doesn't come by observing or not observing the law. The largely Gentile Church worshipped on Sunday which the Jews objected to and is partly the reason for the Jerusalem council in which the Apostles didn't require the Gentiles to keep the law or the Sabbath.

I know, but remember, they have been saying they keep Gods laws and Sunday Christians dont, so I pointed out some of Gods laws that were being kept after Jesus death and ask why are they not keeping them since they keep Gods laws. The gentile church worshiped both days and more evidence points to them keeping Saturday more than Sunday until about 300 AD's when Rome came into play and Sunday was the new day. But one thing we dont see is the gentile church condemning people to the point where they will loose their salvation the way the Sabbatarian crowd does over what day of worship people chooses.

 

[SG9]

Hello to all, I thought to share some interesting studies with you in the link I post below.
This might not be directly addressing the topic of discussion but it's offered for general reading that seems to share a larger POV on both Adventism and non-Adventist groups.

This is more of an address to the "nature" of humankind, IMO, and should bring more knowledge about our present world. Nothing personal, just the facts from professional people.

http://lasierra.edu/fileadmin/docum...Summit/presentations/PS.III.DavidWilliams.pdf

Thanks

 

[Sophrosyne]

The one doing this were Jews. They also demanded the Gentile Christians observe Judaism on pain of not having salvation. We know that salvation doesn't come by observing or not observing the law. The largely Gentile Church worshipped on Sunday which the Jews objected to and is partly the reason for the Jerusalem council in which the Apostles didn't require the Gentiles to keep the law or the Sabbath.

Correction... the Jewish believers (Christians) were the one advocating this. I doubt the unbelieving Jews wanted Gentiles to become Jews at all because to them Jews were "pigs" etc... they were not worthy of God. The problem we are having is that there is 3 groups in play here:
1)Unbelieving Jews (Judaizers)
2)Believing Jews (mostly keeping the Law)
3)Gentiles

Now Paul was talking often to believing Jews who were still practicing religiously the keeping of the Law and knew no other way of approaching God. This is why he uses some seemingly bizarre examples in his writings about law of life, law in the spirit, etc these were for the most part directed NOT at Gentile convert but Jewish converts and these are the scriptures the Lawkeepers keep posting way out of context advocating the Law when in fact Paul is trying to draw them out of that mindset into Grace and freedom from bondage of the Law of sin and death.

 

[Godisgood12]

Things not going well? Pity party at my place after sundown. Don't be late.

So what if sda's worship God on saturday...who wants to be persecuted for that?

The pity party thing is far too imaginative. Perhaps you have some law saying I shouldnt stand up for what is right?

Admit it already from scratch, it is good to worship God any day one chooses.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by SAAN

How about you stop going on the end of a thread and read all that has been going on.
​

Claiming sda is brainwashed is attacking sda's.

And please stop threatening me.

Things not going well?
Pity party at my place after sundown.
Don't be late.

Is food and music provided?

Crisis Core: Everybody Dance Now - YouTube

 

[Godisgood12]

Ah man, if there is a feast, count me in!

*Concerning the Lev 23 portion.

pity party comment is all on "from scratch".

 

[whitebeaches]

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