What sin leads unto death? Can we pray for others to be forgiven?

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In 1 John 5 we are told of some situations where we should pray for someone in sin, but that we are not to pray for sin leading unto death.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

V. 16 seems to say that we can pray for the sins of others. Do you think others can be forgiven based on OUR prayers? If not, what does this mean?

And what is the sin leading to death?
 

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Hi Kylissa,

We find in the Scriptures that both Moses and Daniel did pray for God's forgiveness on others. With Moses, God did forestall their punishment and we don't know if God granted forgiveness from Daniel's prayer.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Gregory Thompson

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In 1 John 5 we are told of some situations where we should pray for someone in sin, but that we are not to pray for sin leading unto death.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

V. 16 seems to say that we can pray for the sins of others. Do you think others can be forgiven based on OUR prayers? If not, what does this mean?

And what is the sin leading to death?

The sin that grows into death is the child that was conceived as a result of our own passions . when the sin becomes fully grown it becomes death . the power of the devil .

so when people act really desparate to keep the sin out . and kinda look like they're trying to lock a demon away inside their heart while quoting scriptures . it's not a demon . it's just their sin at the next stage of the cycle . the reality of "the wages of sin is death" has become a very reality to them .

and we can pray for them . but as the apostle writes . we are under no duress to do so .

for whoever has died has been set free from sin (Romans 6:7)
 
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In 1 John 5 we are told of some situations where we should pray for someone in sin, but that we are not to pray for sin leading unto death.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

V. 16 seems to say that we can pray for the sins of others. Do you think others can be forgiven based on OUR prayers? If not, what does this mean?

And what is the sin leading to death?

1)Sin to death is to first know and accept the truth and then to deny it.

2)We can pray for someone, however if that person dies after committing "sin to death" then there is nothing we can do. On top of praying we should do other things to help the individual.
 
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Thanks for the input, everyone!

I'm actually most interested in the idea that we can pray for forgiveness for others. That falls outside my "theology" up until this point, but it sure seems to be there.

Thanks for the reminder that Moses and Daniel did just that. I remember Moses well, but I'm going to have to look for Daniel's case as it just isn't coming to mind. I will look though, thank you. :)

Any more comments are still appreciated. :)
 
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Thekla

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Sorry Kylissa if this is vague - but in my limited understanding/ability to explain, this is a distortion of one (born of will) that is so embedded as to be irreversible -- that basically understands/experiences what is good as evil. (Ie will experience forgiveness and love as horrible/horrifying).

As for praying for the forgiveness of others - when Christ healed, He sometimes gave the statement "your sins are forgiven". Clearly, some who were healed (ex.the paralytic who was lowered by his friends through the roof) and those who were resurrected did not ask for healing.
 
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cerette

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Praying for someone's salvation/forgiveness is not the basis for anyone's salvation/forgiveness.

I pray all the time for friends & family's salvation, but I also know that if they come to faith, it was not because of my prayers.

I think the sin unto death is the sin against the Holy Spirit.
 
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Well, I don't say that we can pray salvation for someone else and them be saved on the basis of our prayers, without involving themselves at all. I think salvation is ultimately a matter between an individual and God.

I do pray salvation for people, and I have seen results. I don't say it is my prayers that have saved them, but ... I suppose maybe God answers/hears those prayers and moves to put someone in that person's life that makes a difference, opens their ears to hear, I don't know. Whatever God does. I have heard of others who prayed for salvation of someone, sometimes one who seemed very set against God, and I have not yet heard of the prayer NOT being answered, though sometimes it seems to take a lifetime.

I certainly don't see any indication that we could pray for salvation for someone who died while hating God, or continues to hate God and lives, and that person is "saved" apart from themselves just because of our prayers.

Specifically though it says a BROTHER committing a sin. So it doesn't seem to be speaking of salvation, just .... possibly restoration? Forgiveness? I'm not quite sure yet.
 
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Thekla, Cerette,

It seems you are both talking about things such as the likely interpretation of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgiveable, that one who tramples the blood of Christ underfoot has no sacrifice remaining, those that are impossible to renew to repentance?

I hope that is the case ... it seems to be the only time God "gives up" on someone, and if I understand those passage to all be essentially the same thing, it makes sense.
 
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Thanks for the input, everyone!

I'm actually most interested in the idea that we can pray for forgiveness for others. That falls outside my "theology" up until this point, but it sure seems to be there.

Thanks for the reminder that Moses and Daniel did just that. I remember Moses well, but I'm going to have to look for Daniel's case as it just isn't coming to mind. I will look though, thank you. :)

Any more comments are still appreciated. :)

Mark chapter 2

4 - And when they could not offer him unto him for the multitude, they uncovered the roof where he was; and opening it, they let down the bed wherein the man sick of the palsy lay.

5 - And when Jesus had seen their FAITH, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.
 
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Thekla

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Thekla, Cerette,

It seems you are both talking about things such as the likely interpretation of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgiveable, that one who tramples the blood of Christ underfoot has no sacrifice remaining, those that are impossible to renew to repentance?

I hope that is the case ... it seems to be the only time God "gives up" on someone, and if I understand those passage to all be essentially the same thing, it makes sense.


I really hesitate to comment on what is truly unforgivable in God's view.

But to the second point, for those who are so deeply distorted by their own will that they experience God's love as hell, God respects their will and for God to act in love would be their hell. And just simply, God does not abrogate our ability to choose. Often those who seem to reject Him have some small corner of hope/space in them, where God can work. (I think it was Simone Weill who said something like for those who run away from Christ, if they seek truth they actually are running into His arms.)

For those who love God truly, the experience of Him can be hard for us mere mortals on this side to 'withstand'. (Consider what happened to Peter, James, and John at the Transfiguration - when Christ was seen as He truly is, or Paul's being caught up into the third Heaven.) How must He be for those who are so deeply distorted ...
 
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cerette

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Thekla, Cerette,

It seems you are both talking about things such as the likely interpretation of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgiveable, that one who tramples the blood of Christ underfoot has no sacrifice remaining, those that are impossible to renew to repentance?

I hope that is the case ... it seems to be the only time God "gives up" on someone, and if I understand those passage to all be essentially the same thing, it makes sense.

The Sin Against the Holy Spirit

I wouldn't say that God gives up on anyone, rather the sin is such that it makes repentance impossible.
 
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cerette

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Specifically though it says a BROTHER committing a sin. So it doesn't seem to be speaking of salvation, just .... possibly restoration? Forgiveness? I'm not quite sure yet.

I hear ya.. maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'salvation' as it might have confused things in this case.
But yeah, I do think we should and can pray that sinning brethren repent, and I do believe that God does and can answer such prayers, but again, I find it important to point out that their repentance isn't dependent upon our prayers though. Make sense what i am trying to say? :sorry:
 
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To me, (an opinion as it is a very hard question)

Some may argue, but this is my take.....

I base this answer on Hebrews 6:4

If one becomes a believer and his / her spirit are born again (John 3:5)
and they ask and receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16;Acts1:5;Acts 2; Acts 8;18;Acts 10:44) and then openly denies Jesus and the Holy Spirit after that, they
are in a very very bad place.
 
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Thanks for the input, everyone!

I'm actually most interested in the idea that we can pray for forgiveness for others. That falls outside my "theology" up until this point, but it sure seems to be there.

Thanks for the reminder that Moses and Daniel did just that. I remember Moses well, but I'm going to have to look for Daniel's case as it just isn't coming to mind. I will look though, thank you. :)

Any more comments are still appreciated. :)

The prophets prayed for the forgiveness of their nation and included themselves in the group needing repentance
 
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Well, I don't say that we can pray salvation for someone else and them be saved on the basis of our prayers, without involving themselves at all. I think salvation is ultimately a matter between an individual and God.

I do pray salvation for people, and I have seen results. I don't say it is my prayers that have saved them, but ... I suppose maybe God answers/hears those prayers and moves to put someone in that person's life that makes a difference, opens their ears to hear, I don't know. Whatever God does. I have heard of others who prayed for salvation of someone, sometimes one who seemed very set against God, and I have not yet heard of the prayer NOT being answered, though sometimes it seems to take a lifetime.

I certainly don't see any indication that we could pray for salvation for someone who died while hating God, or continues to hate God and lives, and that person is "saved" apart from themselves just because of our prayers.

Specifically though it says a BROTHER committing a sin. So it doesn't seem to be speaking of salvation, just .... possibly restoration? Forgiveness? I'm not quite sure yet.

Thank you for reminding me of this . confessing the sins of others makes sense only if you are one with God who is everywhere and inside everyone and everything . this is more related to sharing in the sufferings of Christ .
 
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It is the Word.

Galatians 6:1
"Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."

James 5:19;20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 
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Thekla, Cerette,

It seems you are both talking about things such as the likely interpretation of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgiveable, that one who tramples the blood of Christ underfoot has no sacrifice remaining, those that are impossible to renew to repentance?

I hope that is the case ... it seems to be the only time God "gives up" on someone, and if I understand those passage to all be essentially the same thing, it makes sense.
If I may say..

From what I've seen, I think sometimes we may read past some very direct things when it comes to what unforgiveable sin is - and perhaps it's just me....but as I John was focused on God as Love and our relationship to God as expressed to others (such as I John 4 when he calls us to love others if we love GOD or else we're liars when claiming to believe in Him - and we love because he first loved us), I tend to be open to the thought that the unforgiveable sin is simply failure to truly love.

And one key aspect of love is forgiveness..

Love is a gift from the Lord He has given freely in light of how we're able to experience His Mercy Daily and have even before knowing of Christ - is something we have to offer to others.....the gift of forgivness being something necessary if one is to truly be a part of the Kingdom of God since a lack of forgiveness is something the Lord repeatedly warned on


Luke 6:37
[ Do Not Judge ] “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.



Mark 11:25

[ Forgiveness and Prayer ] “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.

Matthew 6:13-14
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Matthew 18:29-31
29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’[e] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses
.”[f]


When Jesus taught his disciples to pray, he made forgiveness the cornerstone of their relationship with God. For God has forgiven our sins and so we must forgive those who have wronged us - but to remain unforgiving shows we have not understood that we ourselves deeply need to be forgiven. When we don't forgive others, we are denying our common ground as sinners in need of God's forgiveness. Of course, God's forgiveness of sin is not the direct result of our forgiving others, but it is based on our realizing what forgiveness (Ephesians 4:32).....and there's a reason St. James noted that we should speak and act as those who're going to be judged by the law that gives freedom because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful - Mercy TRIUMPS over judgment (James 2:12-13).

And in many respects, when it comes to lacking mercy, this is something the Pharisees whom Christ spoke against sadly fell into. They saw others healed from being demon-possessed and even others who were blind or mute being healed - and yet while others were rejoicing over the matter, they could only accuse...their hearts were ones not concerned with showing mercy/compassion to others as they needed it ...and interestingly enough, in that culture, there was often a mindset that people born with the things Jesus healed were ones who deserved to deal with them - a matter of God's judgment (the view akin to Retribution Theology that was widespread in Biblical times and an issue that often had to be addressed by Christ) -with the dynamics of leaving others to their fate almost like how a caste system would be when you feel others were meant to be where they are.... and thus, certain Pharisees wouldn't be concerned with helping them or doing anything. That's what happens when we think ourselves deserving more of God's Mercy/touch more than others - we end up slandering it in others whom receive it. And in doing so, we slander the Lord..

The Pharisees had blasphemed against the Spirit (as noted in Matthew 12:22-38) by attributing the power by which Christ did miracles to Satan instead of the Holy Spirit. They had done this before in Matthew 9:32-34 when Jesus earlier healed those who were demon-possessed, even though Jesus didn't say anything at the time. In fact, in Matthew 9, the Pharisees accused Jesus of four different sins: blasphemy (when proclaiming forgiveness for the man who was paralyzed man in Matthew 9:1-4 ...perhaps needing to know indeed God had brought forgiveness to Him ...a vital part of proclaiming the Kingdom of God), befriending sinners (Matthew 9:10-12 - when he was at the house of Matthew the tax collector), impiety and serving Satan....Jesus was maligned by those who should have received him the most gladly.....and the Pharisees did all this because (1) Jesus bypassed their religious authority, (2) He weakened their control over the people and (3) he challenged their cherished beliefs while exposing their insincere/hypocritical motives.

But again, the Pharisees in their first accusation of "By demons he casts out demons" in Matthew 9 was left alone by Christ...and later on, Christ chose to address the matter for what it was. What occurred was a culmination of what was in their hearts - a lack of love for both God (whom they didn't want to submit to by rejoicing in His work for others - the essence of love) and Man (by having no desire to see others be forgiven or healed/transformed by God even as they would want God to work in their lives). When you attiribute to the devil what is a work of the Holy Spirit, it reveals a heart-attitude of unbelief and unrepentance...deliberate, ongoing rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy because it is rejecting God himself. And thus, Jesus said they couldn't be forgiven - not because their sin was worse than any other, but because they would never ask forgiveness nor extend it. This is something that is intimately tied to what Jesus noted when speaking on prayer in Luke 18 - first speaking on the importance of consistent prayer like the widow did with the unjust judge (in contrast to God who gives justice to those crying out for it) ..and yet noting afterward what can keep prayer from being answered when pointing out the Parable of the Two Men who prayed (as it concerns those confident in their own righteousness/looked down upon others) and showing how the Pharisee exalting himself compared to others considered the "worst of the worst" would not be justified before God ...while the one Tax Collector crying out for God's Mercy/not even looking to Heaven was accepted since he humbled himself.

With the unforgivable sin being unforgiveness or mercy, you can see how the religious leaders did this often - similar to people today speaking on how much God's mercy is available for all and yet they deny it to others they don't like ...or how, to be personal, I may choose to hold a grudge toward people who were living wild ...repented...and yet they were quickly able to advance a lot/seem MORE blessed when compared to myself or others who served God for a long time/felt that they didn't do anything to deserve THAT much of God's mercy or blessing.

To assume "It's not fair - they don't deserve God's forgiveness or blessing in their life..but I do" - that's a lack of understanding God's heart....and what I refuse to extend for others, God will refuse to extend for me. By saying "It's not right that you delivered them rather than letting them suffer as they deserve - I REFUSE to even pray anything good for them", we'd be saying "Holy Spirit - the work you're doing in their hearts is not truly a GODLY Work...it's of the Devil" - and in doing so, I cut myself off from working with the Lord since He cannot truly work in my own life when I cut off being merciful or giving forgiveness.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit results in Spiritual death (Mark 3:29) and the book of Hebrews describes the spiritual death of the person who turns against Christ - and With I John 5:17, when it comes to saying there is a sin that leads to death, the love (with forgiveness/mercy) dynamic seems hard to escape seeing that St. John already noted what it meant to be in death...as seen here:

1 John 3:8-24

The Imperative of Love

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother[a] abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

The Outworking of Love

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us[c] commandment.



Not having love is death - and although there are other sins that don't automatically lead to ultimate death in eternity (like sins hindering us from being fully effective/productive in this life even as we seek the Lord - besetting sins we battle with ..addictions to bad habits/mindsets or deceptions..hidden faults like Psalm 19:13 that can enslave us...things St. James said we're to do with confession of sins like James 5:15-16 or St. John in I John 1:1-10), the reality is that the one sin which will hinder us is choosing not to LOVE God/others.

And love covers..

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife,
But love covers all sins..​

St. Paul noted the same dynamic in I Corinthians 13 when it came to the issue of what it meant when seeing how one had NOTHING if they had not love - the thing we're to strive for the most.

And the concept was so important that even St. Peter - after warning on being in the End Times and needing to be alert - seemed to repeat it as if saying even in being aware and yet imperfect, the one thing we needed to do above all else was have fervent love..as if that would truly cover everything else.

1 Peter 4:7-9 (NKJV)
Serving for God’s Glory

7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”[a] 9 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling.​

Archimandrite Irenei explored a series of patristic texts that deal with the imperative of forgiveness, and the need to forgive as the gateway into the life offered by Christ in the Church....as seen in "Shall We Forgive? The Fathers on Forgiveness as the Gateway to Salvation"
 
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More interesting points. I need a way to set this thread aside because there are things here I want to come back to and think and study on.

As far as the unforgiveable sin - I'm not sure if this is really what is meant, but we ARE told to pray that our sins be forgiven as we forgive others. I have questioned myself if that doesn't mean that if we fail to forgive, we will not be forgiven. The Bible actually seems pretty plain on that.

Which would make unforgiveness - if not the unforgiveable sin, a sin that makes our OTHER sins unforgiveable.

Interesting. Humbling. And something to be carefully considered.

Oh and Thekla, I really am intrigued by your explanation of how some might experience the love of God. That's really an amazing thought to me. I will have to think about it some more.

I believe God is love, and supremely merciful (I do not say He is not also just), but that is another thing to think of in context of His love.

I learn so much and am given such good things to think about here. :)

Thank you all, and God bless you all!
 
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... we ARE told to pray that our sins be forgiven as we forgive others. I have questioned myself if that doesn't mean that if we fail to forgive, we will not be forgiven. The Bible actually seems pretty plain on that.

Which would make unforgiveness - if the an unforgiveable sin, a sin that makes our OTHER sins unforgiveable.

Interesting. Humbling. And something to be carefully considered.


Proverbs 18:19
A brother offended is harder to win than a strong city, And contentions are like the bars of a castle.​

Last year, I was actually having to listen to something for an assignment that Pastor John Bevere dealt with... the issue of offense and knowing how to avoid falling into pitfalls based on that ..


The Bait Of Satan - YouTube

The Bait Of satan Lesson 1.1 - YouTube

john bevere on forgiveness part 2 - YouTube

The Bait Of Satan message by John Bevere - YouTube
 
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