What have you understood about the charcater of The Ten Commandments?? (2)

[VictorC]

He can not reason like you can. He does not know what he is doing. Just like Paul thought he was doing God's work when he was persecuting the Church. You can not expect him to reason this through. He needs to be knocked off his high horse by God, just like Paul. That is... If he is one that God knows will believe.

I have to assume that someone participating on a discussion forum knows what they're doing. That's an implied prerequisite for membership.

Elder111 has had plenty of opportunity to reconcile his opinion with Scripture. This morning it is plainly evident that isn't his intention. What God does on the personal level goes beyond the scope of a forum, and we just don't know what the future holds for Elder111. As a seventh-day Adventist, his modus operandi is wholly consistent with what Ellen White instructed him to do:

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.

Take away Ellen's imaginary god conjured as an excuse to retain Millerism's 1844 non-event in this quote, and we're left with Adventism's conclusion regarding the authority of Scripture: "And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them is a great mistake."

For over a century Adventism has borne a stigma of being called a non-Christian cult system. (page 360)
There can be no doubt of the fact that there are conflicting statements in Adventist publications and diverse opinions about certain areas of Adventist theology and interpretation, some of which is quite the opposite of classical orthodox Christianity. (page 369)

 

[GenemZ]

You really did not answer the question.
Let me put it this way. If I as a Christian, led by the Holy Spirit, should not steal, lie or commit adultery, Is that not of the Ten Commandments? Does not the first Commandment say to worship God only? How can doing so lead me to hell?

The question really is.

Is it not the desired outcome of the Ten Commandments? For a man? To be how a person should be behaving without giving it a thought if he possessed true righteousness? In other words.. The result of one's obedience to the Ten Commandments does not reveal righteousness. It reveals a need for restraint, because of a lack of true righteousness.

The Law was given because man left on his own should be in Hell! The filling of the Spirit causes God's righteousness to take over and without a thought, will be not be having to be told the Ten Commandments to behave morally. He has a new nature taking over his old. Simply following the Ten Commandments one could be an unbeliever with enough will power and will to do (act) in a manner that only gives an overt behavior to be seen outwardly. Yet, God who sees the heart knows that the one without the Holy Spirit filling who is willing to follow the Ten Commandments is INWARDLY breaking them all the time in his heart!

Matthew 5:27-28

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already
committed adultery with her in his heart.

​

Many who overtly followed the Ten Commandments (who did not possess the filling of the Holy Spirit) did not overtly commit adultery. BUT! In their hearts? They were committing adultery before God!

Following the Law only produces an outward appearance of being righteous. Yet, inwardly. In their heart, they remained sinning before God!

Only with possessing the transformational inner power that comes from God's grace, can one not sin both inside and out! God sees the law follower, who religiously follows the Law, as a hypocrite. Because, he thinks he is pleasing God by obeying the Law. While in his heart he still hates, steals, murders, and commits adultery. He even breaks the Sabbath mentally while keeping it outwardly! For the sin nature is never eliminated by following the Law! Its only frustrated and confined!

The Holy Spirit controls the faithful Christian by having his feelings and inward mental life transformed into the likeness of Christ. He does not have to consciously think about keeping the Law. His actions will be what keeping the Law produces. But in his case, his soul becomes his outward expression of his inward man! Its no longer simple morality! It becomes, by God's Grace - VIRTUE! Those who think God is pleased with them for being willing to obey the Law are moralistic spiritual dummies.

They very fact these dummies have to use their will power to follow and obey the Law only proves that what God sees in the inward man displeases God! God wants to see the clean inward man - a virtuous SOUL! Not simply a moral creature who is denying his inward drive to sin! Inwardly he sins while not allowing its outward expression by following the Law. On the other hand.. GRACE makes us strong where we are weak! Not the Law! Grace removes the inward conflict. No more need for the Law! For our new nature will automatically be in harmony with the Law. The Law serves at that point only to check us, when we get out of fellowship. Its like the warning light in our car that shines when something is wrong.

2 Corinthians 3:18

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the
Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image
with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord,
who is the Spirit.


​

Galatians 5:18

If you are led by the Spirit, you are
not under the law.


​

Why do you think it says that?

We are to have an inner peace and Sabbath-rest in our souls all the time, that we are not to have just on Saturdays! We rest from our own work (obeying the Law). This inner rest should become more and more an ongoing and daily experience as we mature in the Grace and Truth of God. The Grace and Truth that conquers our old life and transforms us into having the Life of His Son in the Spirit!

The SDA seduces uninformed and immature believers into entering back under the Law. It diverts them away from discovering God's true power to transform us into having genuine VIRTUE, not simply morality. Morality was commanded of all of Israel. Not just the believer! Believer and unbeliever were to be moral under the Law. Anything commanded of the unbeliever? Can not be the spiritual life!

Colossians 2:16-17

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food
or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a
Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what
is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

​

You want to keep the Sabbath day according to the Law? You want to keep the dietary Laws? Then, DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE WHO DOES NOT! What you are doing were only shadows of the reality that is to be found only IN CHRIST!

Or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

​

Stop being robbed of the Truth! You're being lied to by some very nice and moral people. Its seduction away from knowing Christ!

 

[from scratch]

The question really is.

Is not the desired behavioral outcome of the Ten Commandments for a man, how a person should be behaving automatically, without thought, if he possessed true righteousness?

The Law was given because man left on his own should be in Hell! The filling of the Spirit causes God's righteousness to take over and without a thought, will be not be having to be told the Ten Commandments to behave morally. He has a new nature taking over his old. Simply following the Ten Commandments one could be an unbeliever with enough will power and will to do (act) in a manner that only gives an overt behavior to be seen outwardly. Yet, God who sees the heart knows that the one without the Holy Spirit filling who is willing to follow the Ten Commandments is INWARDLY breaking them all the time in his heart!

Matthew 5:27-28

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already
committed adultery with her in his heart.

​

Many who overtly followed the Ten Commandments (who did not possess the filling of the Holy Spirit) did not overtly commit adultery. BUT! In their hearts? They were committing adultery before God!

Following the Law only produces an outward appearance of being righteous. Yet, inwardly. In their heart, they remained sinning before God!

Only with possessing the transformational inner power that comes from God's grace, can one not sin both inside and out! God sees the law follower, who religiously follows the Law, as a hypocrite. Because, he thinks he is pleasing God by obeying the Law. While in his heart he still hates, steals, murders, and commits adultery. He even breaks the Sabbath mentally while keeping it outwardly! For the sin nature is never eliminated by following the Law! Its only frustrated and confined!

The Holy Spirit controls the faithful Christian by having his feelings and inward mental life transformed into the likeness of Christ. He does not have to consciously think about keeping the Law. His actions will be what keeping the Law produces. But in his case, his soul becomes his outward expression of his inward man! Its no longer simple morality! It becomes, by God's Grace - VIRTUE! Those who think God is pleased with them for being willing to obey the Law are moralistic spiritual dummies.

They very fact these dummies have to use their will power to follow and obey the Law only proves that what God sees in the inward man displeases God! God wants to see the clean inward man - a virtuous SOUL! Not simply a moral creature who is denying his inward drive to sin! Inwardly he sins while not allowing its outward expression by following the Law. On the other hand.. GRACE makes us strong where we are weak! Not the Law! Grace removes the inward conflict. No more need for the Law! For our new nature will automatically be in harmony with the Law. The Law serves at that point only to check us, when we get out of fellowship. Its like the warning light in our car that shines when something is wrong.

2 Corinthians 3:18

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the
Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image
with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord,
who is the Spirit.


​

Galatians 5:18

If you are led by the Spirit, you are
not under the law.


​

Why do you think it says that?

We are to have an inner peace and Sabbath-rest in our souls all the time, that we are not to have just on Saturdays! We rest from our own work (obeying the Law). This inner rest should become more and more an ongoing and daily experience as we mature in the Grace and Truth of God. The Grace and Truth that conquers our old life and transforms us into having the Life of His Son in the Spirit!

The SDA seduces uninformed and immature believers into entering back under the Law. It diverts them away from discovering God's true power to transform us into having genuine VIRTUE, not simply morality. Morality was commanded of all of Israel. Not just the believer! Believer and unbeliever were to be moral under the Law. Anything commanded of the unbeliever? Can not be the spiritual life!

Colossians 2:16-17

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food
or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a
Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what
is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

​

You want to keep the Sabbath day according to the Law? You want to keep the dietary Laws? Then, DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE WHO DOES NOT! What you are doing were only shadows of the reality that is to be found only IN CHRIST!

Or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

​

Stop being robbed of the Truth! You're being lied to by some very nice and moral people. Its seduction away from knowing Christ!

Since there seem to be revolving doors in their church I wonder how many become disillusioned and totally forsake God.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Since there seem to be revolving doors in their church I wonder how many become disillusioned and totally forsake God.

There is revolving doors in every church.... the problem is most Christians don't truly know their faith to begin with and trust their "church" to spoon feed them doctrine and blindly believe it. Even though I am a member of a church I don't blindly believe all they teach nor do I believe anyone that preaches if it doesn't seem right I check the Bible to make sure.

 

[from scratch]

There is revolving doors in every church.... the problem is most Christians don't truly know their faith to begin with and trust their "church" to spoon feed them doctrine and blindly believe it. Even though I am a member of a church I don't blindly believe all they teach nor do I believe anyone that preaches if it doesn't seem right I check the Bible to make sure.

I couldn't find any peace in or at religious gatherings, so I just quit going. No I haven't given up God yet and don't think I will.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I couldn't find any peace in or at religious gatherings, so I just quit going. No I haven't given up God yet and don't think I will.

I go to church at times for worship and my church does a lot of missions to get people saved and such. I don't think any church gets everything right but I looked for a church that was into loving others and the Gospel and not too far off on doctrine.

 

[GenemZ]

I go to church at times for worship and my church does a lot of missions to get people saved and such. I don't think any church gets everything right but I looked for a church that was into loving others and the Gospel and not too far off on doctrine.

Most churches can hardly give what is needed to reach the Fulness in Christ. That requires sound doctrine being taught on a regular basis,not the same repetition of their denominational dogma, or offering church programs to keep the empty having something to do.

The few churches that can? Make some mistakes as well. But, their mistakes are showcased as a means for those wanting an excuse to leave, so another soul desiring the meat of the Word can have a warm seat to learn from.

What constitutes "church worship" can be labeled "Let's all emote together over thoughts about God." True growth only comes by means of gaining sound knowledge, and then the Spirit in you giving that knowledge life and power as to make it one with you. Not, knowledge to be learned as if you were to be taking a written exam. The true knowledge of God's Word becomes living with you when its properly digested spiritually.


Grace and peace...

 

[GenemZ]

Since there seem to be revolving doors in their church I wonder how many become disillusioned and totally forsake God.

They were simply in the process of forsaking God.

Arrogance of soul will always grieve and quench the Spirit. So, how could they be led to a good church if they harbor pride?

These were in the process of seeking a way to reject God's authority over them, while at the same time, trying to find a way to appear to be serving God.


SDA's are only another version of rejecting God's authority. They just do it in a less subtle way. They make other apostates look good by comparison, and keep some of their strongest critics feeling justified in their own rejection, but reject in a way that appeals to them personally.

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with/tolerate/ endure
sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather round
them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

​

 

[Elder 111]

The question really is.

Is not the desired behavioral outcome of the Ten Commandments for a man, how a person should be behaving automatically, without thought, if he possessed true righteousness?

The Law was given because man left on his own should be in Hell! The filling of the Spirit causes God's righteousness to take over and without a thought, will be not be having to be told the Ten Commandments to behave morally. He has a new nature taking over his old. Simply following the Ten Commandments one could be an unbeliever with enough will power and will to do (act) in a manner that only gives an overt behavior to be seen outwardly. Yet, God who sees the heart knows that the one without the Holy Spirit filling who is willing to follow the Ten Commandments is INWARDLY breaking them all the time in his heart!

Matthew 5:27-28

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already
committed adultery with her in his heart.

​

You just admitted that the Ten Commandments should be kept. That the Holy Spirit leads us to keep the Ten Commandments. No need for the rest.

 

[GenemZ]

You just admitted that the Ten Commandments should be kept. That the Holy Spirit leads us top keep the Ten Commandments. No need for the rest.

Funny you should comment just before I made my correction..

Here is what I corrected..



The question really is.

Is it not the desired outcome of the Ten Commandments? For a man? To be how a person should be behaving without giving it a thought if he possessed true righteousness? In other words.. The result of one's obedience to the Ten Commandments does not reveal righteousness. It reveals a need for restraint, because of a lack of true righteousness.


Now... speak to that.

 

[Elder 111]

Funny you should comment just before I made my correction..

Here is what I corrected..



The question really is.

Is it not the desired outcome of the Ten Commandments? For a man? To be how a person should be behaving without giving it a thought if he possessed true righteousness? In other words.. The result of one's obedience to the Ten Commandments does not reveal righteousness. It reveals a need for restraint, because of a lack of true righteousness.


Now... speak to that.

One thing you don't understand or never considered. It is not a "keeping of the commandments period" that I speak of. That the church speaks of. That God requires.
I have said more than once, and will say it again. With the indwelling of the God's Holy Spirit we will keep God holy Ten Commandments. It is only by God grace and power that we will be able to abide by His law, and when we falter it is only by that same grace and the covering righteousness of Christ that we can be restored.
There is no salvation in just "keeping the law". That was never said. What is said is that they is no salvation if the don't keep the Ten commandments. How can I steal, and lie and commit adultery and dwell with God in eternity? How can I be a child of God and have an idol? Coveting and dishonoring parents should not be of a child of God, who is lead by His holy Spirit. How can a righteous man live in this way? What is evil in having such a view?

 

[from scratch]

They were simply in the process of forsaking God.

Arrogance of soul will always grieve and quench the Spirit. So, how could they be led to a good church if they harbor pride?

These were in the process of seeking a way to reject God's authority over them, while at the same time, trying to find a way to appear to be serving God.


SDA's are only another version of rejecting God's authority. They just do it in a less subtle way. They make other apostates look good by comparison, and keep some of their strongest critics feeling justified in their own rejection, but reject in a way that appeals to them personally.

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with/tolerate/ endure
sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather round
them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

​

I find the itching ear problem a very real problem in our self seeking society. Appeal to them or they won't come. Manipulate them or they won't stay. Neither appeal to me. Its very appealing to the masses, though. Transgress appealing to the masses and get disfellowshipped to the level of we'll tolerate your presence. Just as well not go.

 

[Sophrosyne]

One thing you don't understand or never considered. It is not a "keeping of the commandments period" that I speak of. That the church speaks of. That God requires.
I have said more than once, and will say it again. With the indwelling of the God's Holy Spirit we will keep God holy Ten Commandments. It is only by God grace and power that we will be able to abide by His law, and when we falter it is only by that same grace and the covering righteousness of Christ that we can be restored.
There is no salvation in just "keeping the law". That was never said. What is said is that they is no salvation if the don't keep the Ten commandments. How can I steal, and lie and commit adultery and dwell with God in eternity? How can I be a child of God and have an idol? Coveting and dishonoring parents should not be of a child of God, who is lead by His holy Spirit. How can a righteous man live in this way? What is evil in having such a view?

I'm sorry but you have yet to prove that all Christians who don't keep the Sabbath do NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. This in itself is proof that against the 10 commandments via the Spirit. You need to stop dancing around using every commandment BUT the Sabbath to try and prove your point when in the end you WILL demand it be kept.

 

[GenemZ]

One thing you don't understand or never considered. It is not a "keeping of the commandments period" that I speak of. That the church speaks of. That God requires.
I have said more than once, and will say it again. With the indwelling of the God's Holy Spirit we will keep God holy Ten Commandments. It is only by God grace and power that we will be able to abide by His law, and when we falter it is only by that same grace and the covering righteousness of Christ that we can be restored.

Nonsense! This is a law of the Church age that you stomp on, and then declare yourself to be the one doing God's will! You break one of the commandments of the Church age in spades!


Here....

Galatians 2:16-17

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with
regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however,
is found in Christ.


​

The Judaizers were condemning the Galatians for NOT keeping the Sabbath Day! They were trying to get the Gentile believers to live under the Law that was intended for Israel!

You are being something very old, and just like the religious stiffs that hounded the grace oriented believers in Paul's day.

And? It says to let no one judge you about keeping that Sabbath. That works both ways. We are not to judge you, but since you come here judging others for not keeping it? Judge not lest you be judged. As you judge others it will be given onto you in return!


In other words? Live and let live. Stop judging by trying to tell us we must keep a day. DON'T JUDGE OTHERS IF THEY DECIDE NOT TO KEEP THE SABBATH DAY! WE ARE TOLD NOT TO LET YOU DO THAT TO US!

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with
regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however,
is found in Christ.


​

That was written to protect grace oriented believers, not you! You want to keep that Day? Fine! But, keep your self righteous, religious nose, out of our spiritual business! We live as onto the Lord, not the Law! Don't you judge us!

You come here to judge others in regards to the Sabbath Day!

 

[Elder 111]

Nonsense! This is a law of the Church age that you stomp on, and then declare yourself to be the one doing God's will! You break one of the commandments of the Church age in spades!


Here....

Galatians 2:16-17

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with
regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however,
is found in Christ.


​

The Judaizers were condemning the Galatians for NOT keeping the Sabbath Day! They were trying to get the Gentile believers to live under the Law that was intended for Israel!

Absolutely not the case, there was never a problem with the seventh day Sabbath. A Sabbath day refers to days like the passover and atonement, which you know very well were called a sabbath day.

 

[Elder 111]

I'm sorry but you have yet to prove that all Christians who don't keep the Sabbath do NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. This in itself is proof that against the 10 commandments via the Spirit. You need to stop dancing around using every commandment BUT the Sabbath to try and prove your point when in the end you WILL demand it be kept.

From the beginning of time God blessed , sanctified and hallowed the Sabbath day. Geneses 2. Jesus, who created the Sabbath came as our example and kept it. Luke 4: And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
We will spend eternity keeping the Sabbath. Isa 66: 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
How is it that we at this time would be required to do the same?

 

[GenemZ]

Absolutely not the case, there was never a problem with the seventh day Sabbath. A Sabbath day refers to days like the passover and atonement, which you know very well were called a sabbath day.

It does not say that Elder.


Galatians 2:16-17

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.



It also speaks of the foods found in the Law. Were there special days for certain foods, now? New moons happened every month. Like clockwork actually. Nothing special there is mentioned. The Sabbath is not speaking of only the special Sabbaths. It would have said so if it were the case. In the mean time..

You're really beginning to sound like the kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

 

[GenemZ]

Absolutely not the case, there was never a problem with the seventh day Sabbath. A Sabbath day refers to days like the passover and atonement, which you know very well were called a sabbath day.

Elder... What would I have to know to not do if I decided to begin keeping the Sabbath. Considering most people these days do not work on Saturdays? What more would be needed?

 

[Elder 111]

It does not say that Elder.


Galatians 2:16-17

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.



It also speaks of the foods found in the Law. Were there special days for certain foods, now? New moons happened every month. Like clockwork actually. Nothing special there is mentioned. The Sabbath is not speaking of only the special Sabbaths. It would have said so if it were the case. In the mean time..

You're really beginning to sound like the kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

Adultery, stealing and coveting part of the Ten Commandments are shadows of the the real too?

 

[Elder 111]

Elder... What would I have to know to not do if I decided to begin keeping the Sabbath. Considering most people these days do not work on Saturdays? What more would be needed?

Check the word of God!