No new Mosques?

[smaneck]

There are even Sufi that are not Muslim. typically they tend to be Buddhist.

Only in the West. Everywhere else to say you are a Sufi and not a Muslim would be a contradiction in terms. Here you can do kindergarten dancing and call yourself a Sufi.

I suspect there are more Sunni that follow the Sufi path than what the numbers reflect.

Muslims who formally belong to Sufi Orders may be in the minority but nearly all Muslims share Sufi beliefs. Very few Iranians belong to a Sufi Order (it is dangerous to your health) but I've never met an Iranian (Muslim or Baha'i) who did not consider Rumi second only to the Prophet. Nor have I ever met a Muslim in South Asia who was not devoted to the saints of the Chisti Order.
In African countries like Senegal Sufis belonging to formal orders make up 92% of the population.

 

[smaneck]

The current obscurity of Sufism in some Islamic countries in modern times is something that happened rather recently.

Exactly. Prior to the 18th century most Muslims were Sufis.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

What are Sufi beliefs?

 

[smaneck]

I've been away from Christian Forum for a while but I've talked to in the past.

Naah, I had in mind some non-Christian forums. We just seem to run in so many of the same circles.

 

[smaneck]

What are Sufi beliefs?

Same as standard Muslim beliefs. What is different is the practice. Sufism is a form of mysticism and mysticism seeks to cultivate a sense of oneness with God. In Sufism this largely takes the form of an intense love relationship with God.

 

[Crypto]

I support Islam because I believe it is the truth and the true way to worship God.

Like all Muslims I personally find Islam to be a religion of peace and intolerant of aggressors.

I have lived in Islamic Nations as a Christian and was always treated with kindness even when I preached against Islam.

I am aware there are violent Muslims, but it is not condoned in the Qur'an.

I find that the anti-Islamic hate sites have done an excellent job of spreading common misconceptions about Islam.

The same people also spread the same type of hatred towards Christianity.

Muslims have lived in the Americas since Columbus. Muslims were among the earliest settlers and there have been Muslims serving in the US military since the Revolutionary war.

The percentage of Muslims in the US was much higher in the early 1800s than it is today. For 500 years Muslims and non-Muslims in the Americas have lived in Peace.

I see it as a shame we allow the recent fear generated by hate sites to bring about discord.

I have found my love of God(swt) and Jesus(as) fulfilled in Islam and firmly believe it is my path to salvation.

I found reason to stop believing the teachings of Christianity and will never return to what I can not believe. It was not by choice I left Christianity, it is simply because I found reason to not believe it to be true.

You forget a very important point: all of the hate sites are administered by Muslims themselves. Furthermore, all of the hateful reading material has been written by Muslims, like Maududi and Qutb. Nonetheless, the worst of your mistakes is to believe that the Qur'an doesn't promote violence against non-Muslims (and women). Perhaps you are unaware of what Islam really teaches. It can happen. I remember hearing the story of an American who convert to Islam and used to advance the idea of a peaceful Islam, just like you. He debated with Robert Spencer, for instance. After a year or so, he sent a message to Robert Spencer saying: "I realized that I was wrong about Islam, and that you were right". He renounced to Islam and now he is hiding from the Ummah, since his former coreligionists are trying to kill him.

The other option is that you are not being sincere. I mean, that you are sincere about the fact that you believe in Islam, but insincere about Islam being a peaceful religion. If you are confused and you ignore the truth about Islam, I hope you get to see the things as they really are. Well, anyway, I hope you get to know the truth. If you don't believe me about Islam being a violent religion, just go to any Islamic forum and check the answers to questions such as "what should we do with an apostate?". That should open your eyes.

 

[Crypto]

Exactly. Prior to the 18th century most Muslims were Sufis.

Yeah, and you know why Sufi Muslims are such a small minority now? Because there was a revival in Islam. By revival I mean a return to the original teachings of Muhammad. Since Sufism is a deformation of Islam, precisely by the fact that it is not violent, the reformers started to persecute the Sufi Muslims until they kill them all (or nearly). Look at what other Muslims believe about Sufism:

Twenty-first Century India: The continuing persecution of Sufis in Kashmir by Wahabi/Salafist Sunni Radical Islamic terrorists of Pakistan

 

[smaneck]

You forget a very important point: all of the hate sites are administered by Muslims themselves.

Gee, I didn't know Muslims were running Answering Islam or Wikislam.

Furthermore, all of the hateful reading material has been written by Muslims, like Maududi and Qutb.

I remember hearing the story of an American who convert to Islam and used to advance the idea of a peaceful Islam, just like you. He debated with Robert Spencer, for instance. After a year or so, he sent a message to Robert Spencer saying: "I realized that I was wrong about Islam, and that you were right". He renounced to Islam and now he is hiding from the Ummah, since his former coreligionists are trying to kill him.

You heard the story so it must be true!

 

[smaneck]

Yeah, and you know why Sufi Muslims are such a small minority now? Because there was a revival in Islam.

Because there was a rise in heretical revivalist movements.

By revival I mean a return to the original teachings of Muhammad.

Sorry, Muhammad was no Wahhabi.

Look at what other Muslims believe about Sufism:

Twenty-first Century India: The continuing persecution of Sufis in Kashmir by Wahabi/Salafist Sunni Radical Islamic terrorists of Pakistan

I see what heretical Wahabi/Salafists believe about Sufism.

Now tell me something I don't know.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Muslim males are allowed to marry Jews. I don't think a Muslim woman is supposed to marry anyone but a Muslim.

Jews always fared much better in the Islamic world than they did in Christian Europe.

The Qur'an does not state state it is permissable for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim.

It would be a paradox for a Muslim woman to Marry a Non-Muslim.

A Muslim Woman is obligated to help her husband follow his religion. If a Muslimah married a Christian she would be obligated as a Muslim to help him follow his religion, but to do so would make her an apostate?

Puzzling quandary.

A Jewish/Muslim marriage is virtually an impossibility because in Judaism a Jewish woman is forbidden to marry a non-Jew.

Overall Jews have fared much better in Islamic Nations than in Christian Nations. I am not saying they had it good but it was Usually better than in Christian Nations.

 

[MrLuther]

A Jewish/Muslim marriage is virtually an impossibility because in Judaism a Jewish woman is forbidden to marry a non-Jew.

And yet, it happens. Sure, the haredim don't like it, but the book of what the haredim don't like is longer than the Harry Potter- and Dark Tower-series combined.

 

[smaneck]

A Jewish/Muslim marriage is virtually an impossibility because in Judaism a Jewish woman is forbidden to marry a non-Jew.

There were quite a few Jewish-Baha'i marriages in Iran but this was usually because the Baha'i was also from Jewish background. Relations between Jews and their Baha'i relatives generally remained strong. Such was not the case if a Jew converted to Christianity or Islam. In that case, they were almost certainly disowned.

You can't hardly find a Jewish family in Iran that doesn't have Baha'i relatives. Same thing is true with Irani Zoroastrians.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Yeah, and you know why Sufi Muslims are such a small minority now? Because there was a revival in Islam. By revival I mean a return to the original teachings of Muhammad. Since Sufism is a deformation of Islam, precisely by the fact that it is not violent, the reformers started to persecute the Sufi Muslims until they kill them all (or nearly). Look at what other Muslims believe about Sufism:

Twenty-first Century India: The continuing persecution of Sufis in Kashmir by Wahabi/Salafist Sunni Radical Islamic terrorists of Pakistan

That would explain why most Sufi are found in Islamic Nations. They love to be persecuted.

The Sufi are extremly influential in the spread of Islam. They may be a minority but they are the most effective at spreading Islam;

I like to refer to the Sufi as being the Islamic version of Pentecostalism. While there have been many highly influential Sufi, non-Muslims seldom realize they are Muslims. Sufi do seem to excel in the Arts, sciences and Medicine.

The Sufi Isnfluence is actually the dominate influence in Islam, although seldom noticed by non-Muslims. Probably because they are known to be peaceful.

Of the some 1.2 billion Muslims today, approximately how many are Sufis?
Husain Haqqani, who is now Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, had a conversation with me about this, and he said that we were pretty legitimate in saying that half of the Muslims in the world either are Sufis or consider themselves to be pretty much under Sufi influence or in some ways follow Sufi precepts. When you start breaking it down demographically and look at large Muslim societies like India, Indonesia, Egypt, Morocco, French-speaking west Africa, Turkey, and some parts of Central Asia, that figure of about half makes sense. I've developed the proposition that you have two kinds of Sufism. You have a kind of generally diffuse Sufism in Muslim societies where basically the Islam of the whole society is very saturated with Sufism. Indonesia is one specific example of this. Then, overlapping with that, you have societies with the organized tariqat [orders], where Sufism is a social institution. In countries like Morocco, Kosovo, Turkey, Sufism is really belonging to a movement, going on Tuesday or Saturday night to dhikrs [ceremonies devoted to remembering God]; it's having a sheik and going to regular lectures, and participating in some of the social-welfare activities.

SOURCE

Sufi'ism may be a minority in numbers, but it is a majority in Influence.

 

[WoodrowX2]

And yet, it happens. Sure, the haredim don't like it, but the book of what the haredim don't like is longer than the Harry Potter- and Dark Tower-series combined.

My Mother's Grandmother was Jewish. Believe me the influence of a Jewish Grand-Mother passes down through many generations.

Oy-Veh, got to go, Smell smoke.

I left my Bagels in the toaster too long.

 

[Crypto]

Gee, I didn't know Muslims were running Answering Islam or Wikislam.





You heard the story so it must be true!

All of the things that you can find in "Answering Islam" and "Wikislam" can also be found in the Qur'an, the ahadith, and the various hate sites that belong to Islam. Muslims are the sole culprits of their negative image. Did "Answering Islam" flight those planes against the twin towers? Did "Wikislam" blow up the London subway? Were the Tsarnaev brothers a couple of islamophobes? Do you want to see what causes the negative image of Muslims? Watch this:

Muslims in Europe - YouTube

 

[Ishraqiyun]

A christian refusing to accept a Sufi, or member of some other Muslim community, as an example of a Muslim in this instance simply because some Muslims reject their orthodoxy, or they personally do, would be on par with a Muslim rejecting Saint Francis as an example of a Christian because Luther ( the "true orthodox" Christian) rejects the orthodoxy of the Roman Catholic Church and considered it Babylon.

 

[Crypto]

That would explain why most Sufi are found in Islamic Nations. They love to be persecuted.

The Sufi are extremly influential in the spread of Islam. They may be a minority but they are the most effective at spreading Islam;

I like to refer to the Sufi as being the Islamic version of Pentecostalism. While there have been many highly influential Sufi, non-Muslims seldom realize they are Muslims. Sufi do seem to excel in the Arts, sciences and Medicine.

The Sufi Isnfluence is actually the dominate influence in Islam, although seldom noticed by non-Muslims. Probably because they are known to be peaceful.



SOURCE

Sufi'ism may be a minority in numbers, but it is a majority in Influence.

Muslims seldom excel in anything, except in hate-mongering. I think there's only four Muslim Nobel Prizes (and maybe I am being too generous). I am not considering the Peace Nobel prize recipients because the Peace Nobel prize is a joke, even Obama got it.

 

[Crypto]

A christian refusing to accept a Sufi, or member of some other Muslim community, as an example of a Muslim in this instance because some Muslims reject their orthodoxy would be on par with a Muslim rejecting Saint Francis as an example of a Christian because Luther ( the "true orthodox" Christian) rejects the orthodoxy of the Roman Catholic Church and considered it Babylon.

I am not rejecting the Sufi Muslims as an example because mainstream Islam rejected them. I am rejecting them as an example because mainstream Islam is right when it says that Sufism does not reflect the teachings of Muhammad.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

The fact that you hold that opinion doesn't imply that Abd al Qadir or other practioners of Sufism are not Muslim. Even if one were to grant the idea that they are not "orthodox" Muslims they would still be Muslims none the less. To say they are rejected by "mainstream Islam" as if there is and always has been a monolithic "mainstream" is misleading. Certainly in the past 100 years or so Sufism has dwindled due both to the coming of modernism ( modernist Muslims often looked on them as backwards obstacles to modernization) and the growth of Salafism but that is a miniscule blip of time compared to the times in which it was a major influence in the Islamic world. One of the most respected and influential persons in all of Sunni history was a Sufi- Al Ghazali.

Another modern Islamic community that does a lot for the poor and to promote education, peace, and Democracy would be the Nizari Ismailis and their Imam the Agha Khan.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I wouldn't underestimate the number of Muslims who are influenced by or practice Sufism even today for that matter despite the attacks of modernists and fundies. Look how popular the Sufi Poets are to modern Iranians for example. Even some of the far right Ayatollahs like Khomeni read and author Sufi poetry.