No new Mosques?

[WoodrowX2]

All those verses that you cited aren't violent, but just. Jesus said that the tree is known by its fruits. There are extraordinary examples of charity and love in Christianity. Moreover, Jesus, our Lord and God, is the most loving and just being that has ever lived on this earth (or anywhere else). Now, let's look at Islam, what do you have to offer? Where is your Jesus? What example of love and abnegation can you offer? Furthermore, where is your Mother Theresa? Where is your Pope Francis? Where is your Albert Schweitzer? Nowhere. Islam has never offered any example of unselfish love and divine charity. Finally, Islam has offered many examples of extreme violence and hatred. From Muhammad, a selfish and murderous warlord, to Osama Bin Laden, murderer of so many innocents. Collectively, Islam is a pit of hatred. Shia and Sunni have been killing each other for nearly 14 centuries, just to avenge the death of of a single man. Anyone else would have stopped by now, but not the followers of Islam.

It is all a matter of perspective. to a Christian they are not seen as violent, but to non Christians they are seen as violent.

Same with Islamic Scripture, to non-Muslims they are seen as violent, to Muslims they are not.

As for Muslims never offering unselfish love:

A few examples if you care to read:

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

 

[WoodrowX2]

If you hate your own country so much, why don't you move to the Middle East? I am sure you'd enjoy the peaceful and loving societies that thrive in Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, etc.

I have given the use of my right arm and right leg in Vietnam for my love of America.

I have placed my life on the Line as a Combat officer for this country I love.

I currently stand along with the Lakota to help right the wrongs done to them because I love this land called America.

If you have faced combat for America perhaps then I will listen to you lecturing about love for America. I put my life on the line and spoke with actions. What have you done to show your love of America.

It is because I love this nation I am outspoken when I see it committing wrongs and do my best in the voting booth to make changes.

 

[Crypto]

I have given the use of my right arm and right leg in Vietnam for my love of America.

I have placed my life on the Line as a Combat officer for this country I love.

I currently stand along with the Lakota to help right the wrongs done to them because I love this land called America.

If you have faced combat for America perhaps then I will listen to you lecturing about love for America. I put my life on the line and spoke with actions. What have you done to show your love of America.

It is because I love this nation I am outspoken when I see it committing wrongs and do my best in the voting booth to make changes.

What I understood from your posts is that you wanted to expose how evil America is, especially in comparison with historical Islam. Perhaps I understood wrong. I am sorry that you had to go through all those war experiences. Anyways, if you love your country so much, why do you support a cult that wants to destroy the moral principles that constitute the very basis of American civilization, like freedom of speech, religious freedom, equality, etc.?

 

[Crypto]

It is all a matter of perspective. to a Christian they are not seen as violent, but to non Christians they are seen as violent.

Same with Islamic Scripture, to non-Muslims they are seen as violent, to Muslims they are not.

As for Muslims never offering unselfish love:

A few examples if you care to read:

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

If Muslims wanted to enforce these values just upon themselves, I'd have no objections to it. The problem is that, unlike Christianity, Islam strives to impose its values on the whole of mankind. By the way, those examples of good actions performed by Muslims are in open contradiction to the teachings of Islam. Have you noticed it? For instance, the guy who helped the Jew.

 

[Crypto]

If you can't think of any saintly Islamic individuals who gave to the poor, stood up for the oppressed, fought to protect Christians from violent bigots, etc. then you obviously haven't researched the religion as well as you think you have. Check out Abd al Qadir Jilani for one example. Look up sufism and sufi chivalry or (forgive my spelling) javanmard.

Most of those violent bigots were other Muslims. Sufism, by the way, is considered by many as a heretical deviation, so don't bring it to the discussion as if it were mainstream Islam. Furthermore, Sufi Muslims are a minority. Almost and insignificant minority, I would say.

 

[WoodrowX2]

What I understood from your posts is that you wanted to expose how evil America is, especially in comparison with historical Islam. Perhaps I understood wrong. I am sorry that you had to go through all those war experiences. Anyways, if you love your country so much, why do you support a cult that wants to destroy the moral principles that constitute the very basis of American civilization, like freedom of speech, religious freedom, equality, etc.?

I support Islam because I believe it is the truth and the true way to worship God.

Like all Muslims I personally find Islam to be a religion of peace and intolerant of aggressors.

I have lived in Islamic Nations as a Christian and was always treated with kindness even when I preached against Islam.

I am aware there are violent Muslims, but it is not condoned in the Qur'an.

I find that the anti-Islamic hate sites have done an excellent job of spreading common misconceptions about Islam.

The same people also spread the same type of hatred towards Christianity.

Muslims have lived in the Americas since Columbus. Muslims were among the earliest settlers and there have been Muslims serving in the US military since the Revolutionary war.

The percentage of Muslims in the US was much higher in the early 1800s than it is today. For 500 years Muslims and non-Muslims in the Americas have lived in Peace.

I see it as a shame we allow the recent fear generated by hate sites to bring about discord.

I have found my love of God(swt) and Jesus(as) fulfilled in Islam and firmly believe it is my path to salvation.

I found reason to stop believing the teachings of Christianity and will never return to what I can not believe. It was not by choice I left Christianity, it is simply because I found reason to not believe it to be true.

 

[Supreme]

If Muslims wanted to enforce these values just upon themselves, I'd have no objections to it. The problem is that, unlike Christianity, Islam strives to impose its values on the whole of mankind. By the way, those examples of good actions performed by Muslims are in open contradiction to the teachings of Islam. Have you noticed it? For instance, the guy who helped the Jew.

I'd say Christianity wants the whole world to be Christian just as much as Islam wants the whole world to be Muslim. This is the thing- Christianity and Islam and both phenomally successful religions who, contrary to other faiths, actively seek converts and have ballooned in size because of it.

In fact, my Muslim, Afghan gf has never tried to convert me once (not that she could, I love pork too much!). I have tried to convert her multiple times, shamelessly in fact. Actually, some of out first conversations were about religion and the Bible

 

[WoodrowX2]

If Muslims wanted to enforce these values just upon themselves, I'd have no objections to it. The problem is that, unlike Christianity, Islam strives to impose its values on the whole of mankind. By the way, those examples of good actions performed by Muslims are in open contradiction to the teachings of Islam. Have you noticed it? For instance, the guy who helped the Jew.

There is nothing forbidding a Muslim to help a Jew. A Muslim is even permitted to marry a Jew and there is no requirement for her to convert to Islam.

Even today you will find quite a few Jews and Muslim Friendships. although typically the Friendships are with Chassidic Jews. Probably because they often get mistaken for Muslims.


In The West Bank you will find the Jews strongly supportive of the Palestinian Muslims. In Iran you will find Jews that support Iran and are anti-Israel.

I knew quite few Arab Jews in Morocco that had Muslim Friends.

There is nothing in the Qur'an that forbids a Muslim to have Jewish friends.

There are Palestinian Jews most of which are in solidarity with Palestinian Muslims.

[youtube]K6fN3lnGK6c[/youtube]

There are probably more Jewish/Muslim friendship in Islamic nations than you suspect

[youtube]vA7yz2vciGk[/youtube]

 

[WoodrowX2]

Most of those violent bigots were other Muslims. Sufism, by the way, is considered by many as a heretical deviation, so don't bring it to the discussion as if it were mainstream Islam. Furthermore, Sufi Muslims are a minority. Almost and insignificant minority, I would say.

It is somewhat difficult to estimate the number of Sufi.

Sufi'ism is essentially a metaphysical way of life. Some Sunni are Sufi, Some Shi'ite are Sufi, some Sufi are Sufi.

There are even Sufi that are not Muslim. typically they tend to be Buddhist.

I followed the Sufi path for about my first year as a Muslim. But dropped some sufi pracices when I started following the Hanafi Madhab. I still have some Sufi leanings that I can follow without contradicting The Hanafi Madhab.

I suspect there are more Sunni that follow the Sufi path than what the numbers reflect.

Oddly a non-Muslim sufi site may explain this better than a Muslim can

What is Sufism? | The Nimatullahi Sufi Order

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Most of those violent bigots were other Muslims. Sufism, by the way, is considered by many as a heretical deviation, so don't bring it to the discussion as if it were mainstream Islam. Furthermore, Sufi Muslims are a minority. Almost and insignificant minority, I would say.

Well yeah. That makes it even more of a sacrifice that he would fight fellow Muslims to defend Christians. Many people will fight others to defend people in their same club but not to many will fight their in group to protect folks of other religions.

Real saintly people are a minority in any religion. Most adherents are just average flawed humans. The fact that you or certain salafi or right wing Muslims consider Islamic mystics, Sufis, gnostics, Irfani, or dervishes "unorthodox" doesn't imply that they don't count as Muslims. If you look at the influence and power that various Sufi orders had both religiously and even politicaly throughout long stretches of time you wouldn't be so willing to write them off. The current obscurity of Sufism in some Islamic countries in modern times is something that happened rather recently. Just look at Ottoman history if you don't believe me.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

The Nimatullahi are a Shia Muslim Sufi order. I was considering joining because they have people in my state and I enjoyed the writings of Javad Nurbakhsh.

 

[smaneck]

A Nowhere. Islam has never offered any example of unselfish love and divine charity.

Ever hear of Rumi?

Finally, Islam has offered many examples of extreme violence and hatred.

And Chrstianity has offered even more.

Shia and Sunni have been killing each other for nearly 14 centuries, just to avenge the death of a single man.

Uh, if that were the case it would only be Shi'ites attacking Sunnis.

Have you ever heard of the European Wars of Religion. I just spent two weeks lecturing on it.

Anyone else would have stopped by now, but not the followers of Islam.

Europeans stopped only because they stopped carrying about religion. Tolerance is an Enlightenment ideal, and the Enlightenment was an explicitly anti-Christian movement.

 

[smaneck]

The Nimatullahi are a Shia Muslim Sufi order. I was considering joining because they have people in my state and I enjoyed the writings of Javad Nurbakhsh.

Have I known you in another life?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I've been away from Christian Forum for a while but I've talked to in the past.

 

[smaneck]

If you hate your own country so much, why don't you move to the Middle East?

Can't tell the difference between religion and nationalism, I see.

Not surprised.

 

[WoodrowX2]

The Nimatullahi are a Shia Muslim Sufi order. I was considering joining because they have people in my state and I enjoyed the writings of Javad Nurbakhsh.

You are probably right. For some reason I thought they had separated from Islam

 

[smaneck]

What I understood from your posts is that you wanted to expose how evil America is, especially in comparison with historical Islam.

He's barely said anything about America other than the fact the Bible was used to justify taking land from the Native Americans. Do you deny this?

Anyways, if you love your country so much, why do you support a cult that wants to destroy the moral principles that constitute the very basis of American civilization, like freedom of speech, religious freedom, equality, etc.?

A religion with more than a billion people is hardly a 'cult.' I don't think you know the meaning of the word. America is a very young country. Historically over the long run Islamic civilization has been the most capitalistic, the most individualistic and the most socially mobile society on the face of the earth. It was also the most tolerant of the monotheistic traditions.
Read Marshall Hodgson's Venture of Islam if you really want to know what you are talking about.

 

[smaneck]

You are probably right. For some reason I thought they had separated from Islam

There are Sufi Orders which have become so Westernized that they don't consider themselves Muslims. That is the sort of Sufism associated with people like Indris Shah and Hazrat Inayat Khan.

The Nimatullahis are one of the very few Sufi Orders found in Iran.

 

[smaneck]

Most of those violent bigots were other Muslims. Sufism, by the way, is considered by many as a heretical deviation, so don't bring it to the discussion as if it were mainstream Islam.

It is considered a heretical deviation by the Salafis who are themselves a heretical deviation.

You don't get to define what constitutes mainstream Islam.

Furthermore, Sufi Muslims are a minority. Almost and insignificant minority, I would say.

That's where you are wrong. Sufism has been largely responsible for the spread of Islam throughout the world and especially in South and Southeast Asia. It has largely died out in the the Middle East due to the rise of Wahhabism, but most Muslims don't live in the Middle East.

 

[smaneck]

There is nothing forbidding a Muslim to help a Jew. A Muslim is even permitted to marry a Jew and there is no requirement for her to convert to Islam.

Muslim males are allowed to marry Jews. I don't think a Muslim woman is supposed to marry anyone but a Muslim.

Jews always fared much better in the Islamic world than they did in Christian Europe.