No new Mosques?

[smaneck]

Moreover, Muhammad was possessed by a demon and there are tons of evidence for that in the books they call the hadith.

You can determine someone was possessed by a demon on the basis of texts written down hundreds of years after he died?

Yeah, right.

 

[TG123]

That isn't accurate at all.
There is no Baptism in Islam. In Islam salvation is by works and by faith in Allah. To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward. (5:9)

And of course the most obvious proof they are not similar is that Islam does not believe Jesus was the son of God and the one and only savior.

This is all true. However, some similiarities are that both Muslims and Christians (and Jews) believe that God exists. Muslims and Christians respect Jesus, though to us He is much more than only a prophet. Muslims and Christians believe John the Baptist was a prophet. Neither Muslims or Christians or Jews who follow their religion support homosexuality or believe that when we die we simply cease to exist, and have no one to answer to.

I am not saying that Islam, or for that matter Judaism, are true or that they teach what Christianity teaches. I do not believe that a person who dies believing in Islam or Judaism and has had the chance to learn the Truth about Jesus but chose to reject what the Bible says anyways, will enter Heaven.

I do not believe the "all religions teach the same thing" nonsense that some enjoy spreading.

However, we do have some similarities and there is nothing wrong in acknowledging that. We can use our similarities as a common base from which we can engage our Muslim and Jewish friends in dialogue and call them to the Gospel.

 

[Crypto]

You can determine someone was possessed by a demon on the basis of texts written down hundreds of years after he died?

Yeah, right.

Well if I can determine that someone molested a six-year-old girl and said that God told him to do it, I can be sure that there is something wrong with him, yes.

Check this fatwa:

Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the one after whom there is no [further] prophet. After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand Mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar). The inquirer asked the following:
It has become wide spread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children (mufa’khathat literally translated means "placing between the thighs" which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child). What is the opinion of scholars knowing full well that the prophet, the peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, also practiced the "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be please with her.
After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:
It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha - WikiIslam

and watch this video:

Thighing "Mufa' Khathat" - Allah, Qur'an 65:4 divorce pre-puberty kids ('iddah) - YouTube

 

[smaneck]

Well if I can determine that someone molested a six-year-old girl and said that God told him to do it, I can be sure that there is something wrong with him, yes.

The thing is you can't.

Check this fatwa:

What does a fatwa prove other than the fact there is a some mufti somewhere who is obsessed with sex as you are?

It certainly doesn't prove anything about Muhammad!

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Those Islamic scholars are just interpreting what Allah said.

Yep, just like Christian scholars are only interpreting what Jesus said and yet they still disagree with one another on nearly every issue one can think of. Some are conservative while others are liberal. Some make more use of allegorical interpretation while others might be more prone to use typological , literal, etc... One scholar might be a Calvinist while another might be a Arminian. Muslims are just as diverse in their understanding of their faith and Scriptures as we Christians are.


As for Christian Fundamentalist. I would be more apt to classify people like Pat Robertson or the "wonderful" people at the Westboro Baptist Church ,of "God hates ___[insert expletive for gay people]" fame, with that label. Might include some far right Christian Abortion doctor murderers or Christian KKK terrorists to that list as well if I wanted to point out the more violent wing.

 

[Crypto]

Yep, just like Christian scholars are only interpreting what Jesus said and yet they still disagree with one another on nearly every issue one can think of. Some are conservative while others are liberal. Some make more use of allegorical interpretation while others might be more prone to use typological , literal, etc... One scholar might be a Calvinist while another might be a Arminian. Muslims are just as diverse in their understanding of their faith and Scriptures as we Christians are.


As for Christian Fundamentalist. I would be more apt to classify people like Pat Robertson or the "wonderful" people at the Westboro Baptist Church ,of "God hates ___[insert expletive for gay people]" fame, with that label. Might include some far right Christian Abortion doctor murderers or Christian KKK terrorists to that list as well if I wanted to point out the more violent wing.

A Christian fundamentalist is someone who follows the teachings of Christ to the letter (i.e., mother Theresa of Calcutta). Pat Robertson and the KKK are the complete opposite to a Christian fundamentalist, since they act in opposition to the teachings of Christ. If you had read the Bible at least once in your life, you'd know this.

 

[Crypto]

The thing is you can't.



What does a fatwa prove other than the fact there is a some mufti somewhere who is obsessed with sex as you are?

It certainly doesn't prove anything about Muhammad!

Yea, I guess the most renowned scholars of Islam know nothing about Muhammad. Why would I think the opposite? Perhaps because that's what the WHOLE ISLAMIC WORLD SAYS ABOUT THEM.

Regarding Muhammad molesting Aisha when she was six, here you have a little pearl:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
I was accompanying the Prophet on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others… When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet said, "Where are you going?" I said, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." … (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 38, Number 504)


Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:
While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married " He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?" When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 16)


Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins AND FOR FONDLING THEM?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)
​

 

[smaneck]

Yea, I guess the most renowned scholars of Islam know nothing about Muhammad. Why would I think the opposite? Perhaps because that's what the WHOLE ISLAMIC WORLD SAYS ABOUT THEM.

Wrong. As I've already pointed out Shi'ites don't. And they don't consider anything from Aisha or al-Bukhari to be credible. Yet you continue to go on and on about from those sources as long as they feed your sexual fantasies and obsessions.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Yea, I guess the most renowned scholars of Islam know nothing about Muhammad. Why would I think the opposite? Perhaps because that's what the WHOLE ISLAMIC WORLD SAYS ABOUT THEM.

Regarding Muhammad molesting Aisha when she was a baby, here you have a little pearl:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
I was accompanying the Prophet on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others… When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet said, "Where are you going?" I said, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." … (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 38, Number 504)


Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:
While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married " He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?" When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 16)


Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins AND FOR FONDLING THEM?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)
​

That doesn't say anything about her being a baby. It's possible she was too young for marriage by modern standards (definitely not a baby though) but none of the quotes you copied and pasted make such a point.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Maududi urged Muslims to assert themselves over non-Muslims because non-Muslims, he said, have:

“absolutely no right to seize the reins of power in any part of God’s earth nor to direct the collective affairs of human beings according to their own misconceived doctrines.”
​

Because if they do:

“the believers would be under an obligation to do their utmost to dislodge them from political power and to make them live in subservience to the Islamic way of life.”




​

It is wrong to ban the good, the bad and Maududi

Bangladesh banned Maududi's writings because Maududi's political party was performing terrorist attacks in Bangladesh. Maududi, as most hardcore Muslims, believed that secular governments, like the one of Bangladesh, should cease to exist, especially in predominantly Muslim nations, like Bangladesh.

What a hypocrite you are. You say that Maududi is not mainstream Islam, when in fact his commentaries to the Qur'an are among the most popular in the Islamic world, and can be found in "moderate" Islamic websites as well. For example, the most popular Islamic website in the world is Islamicity. Islamicity says this about Maududi:

"Maududi's translation and commentary on the Qur'an, "The Meaning of the Qur'an", ranks as one of the best such works in existence today. Unlike many early translators, Maududi uses the standard technique of providing an explanation of the Qur'anic verses from the Sunnah of the Prophet (sas), including the historical reasons behind the verses. Below is a list of Maududi's introductions to each chapter in the Qur'an. Unfortunately, this represents a very small portion of the six volumes which comprise the complete commentary."

They are also publishing all his commentaries to the Qur'an, here:

Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an

While I am one of the few Maududi fans and do recommend his introductions to the Qur'an to those studying the Qur'an. And I do use the islamicity introductions on my websites.

I do disagree with his commentaries Islamcity.com is not publishing his commentaries, just his introductions to each Surat. I find the introductions to be easily read and accurate. Yes I have read all 114 introductions and do recommend them to non-Muslims as an introcuction to each Surat

While I agree with some of his writing I do disagree with his commentaries and his political views.

But, while I see him as a radical and an extremist I have not found any evidence he was a terrorist.

Maududi is not as well accepted or as popular as you seem to think. It is difficult to find any of his books in any language except English. Outside a few English language Islamic sites I can not find any mention of him I have not found any of his work in Arabic.

He seems to be somewhat unknown to Muslims except for English speaking Muslims.(Which are a world minority)

He does not show up in any Main stream Islamic Book sites (Sunni, Shi'a or Sufi) such as:

Quran - Islamic Books, Official Darussalam International Publications Ltd

Al Tafsir.com - Tafseer Holy Quran from all Tafseer Schools, Quran Translations, Quran Recitations, Quran Interpretation (Tafseer), Quran Sciences, and Love In Quran

Popular Sufism Books

Online English Shia Books - Books and Video Reviews - ShiaChat.com

I do not find him in any Arabic Language Islamic sites Such as:

الصفحة الرئيسة - موقع الإسلام


I do not even find him listed under any lists of Qur'anic Scholars Such as:

Read or download The Importance Of The Ahl Al-Sunnah

http://salamcenter.org/islam/muslim-scholars

Outside the USA and UK Maududi is pretty much forgotten or unknown. He does not have much if any influence on Islamic sites.

His Translation/commentary of the Qur'an does not even make the Saudi Approved list of Translations.

Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an :: Middle East Quarterly

 

[WoodrowX2]

My conclusion about Maududi:

he is hardly known in the Islamic world and seems to be better known by Non-Muslims than by Muslims.

 

[TG123]

That doesn't say anything about her being a baby. It's possible she was too young for marriage by modern standards (definitely not a baby though) but none of the quotes you copied and pasted make such a point.

Dang you, Ishraqiyun, when will you learn to stop bashing sessions by demanding ridiculous and silly things, like evidence???!!!!!

Don't you see how much fun so many people are having, just gladly throwing accusations and repeating misconceptions, and there you come in, spoiling the party by pointing out that the sources cited do not say what the accusers want them to say! It's like poor Yusuf Estes, who was having this awesome time telling us all how Alexander the Great invented the Catholic church and citing the Vatican website and Encyclopaedia Britannica as evidence, in his full clerical glory... until party poopers like myself pointed out that his sources do not say what they say... and the poster who posted the video quickly had to fall back on a theory that the Vatican must have deleted it and when was confronted by the fact that the Encyclopaedia Britannica says no such thing also, he said of Yusuf Estes; "the man is not lying because he is a good Muslim who knows lying is a sin". LOL.

When people are having fun posting misinformation and lies and claiming that sources say what they don't say, it isn't a lot of fun for them to come across a whippersnapper like you who challenges them and uses evidence to sink their false arguments. It must make them pretty ticked, to be exact. They probably feel something even stronger that I can't say on this forum. And you are helping to be the cause of that.


Keep up the good work.

 

[smaneck]

Maududi is not as well accepted or as popular as you seem to think. It is difficult to find any of his books in any language except English.

Dear Woodrow,

Mawdudi is more well-known than you seem to think. Along with Sayyid al-Qutb he has become an important ideological inspiration among jihadists throughout the Muslim world, though you are correct that he was not himself a terrorist. Part of the reason he is so popular is because, as you say, he is an easy read. What a lot of people don't realize is that Salafis and jihadists are usually lay people without that much knowledge of traditional Islamic sources. In fact, they tend to reject most of the writings of the Classical period of Islam.

warmest, Susan

 

[Crypto]

That doesn't say anything about her being a baby. It's possible she was too young for marriage by modern standards (definitely not a baby though) but none of the quotes you copied and pasted make such a point.

Fondling is only practiced when normal sex is not allowed due to the age of the woman (i.e., when she is too young to withstand normal sex) or when she is in her menses. I don't think Muhammad was talking about the latter circumstances.

 

[Crypto]

Dang you, Ishraqiyun, when will you learn to stop bashing sessions by demanding ridiculous and silly things, like evidence???!!!!!

Don't you see how much fun so many people are having, just gladly throwing accusations and repeating misconceptions, and there you come in, spoiling the party by pointing out that the sources cited do not say what the accusers want them to say! It's like poor Yusuf Estes, who was having this awesome time telling us all how Alexander the Great invented the Catholic church and citing the Vatican website and Encyclopaedia Britannica as evidence, in his full clerical glory... until party poopers like myself pointed out that his sources do not say what they say... and the poster who posted the video quickly had to fall back on a theory that the Vatican must have deleted it and when was confronted by the fact that the Encyclopaedia Britannica says no such thing also, he said of Yusuf Estes; "the man is not lying because he is a good Muslim who knows lying is a sin". LOL.

When people are having fun posting misinformation and lies and claiming that sources say what they don't say, it isn't a lot of fun for them to come across a whippersnapper like you who challenges them and uses evidence to sink their false arguments. It must make them pretty ticked, to be exact. They probably feel something even stronger that I can't say on this forum. And you are helping to be the cause of that.


Keep up the good work.

Show me where have I lied. Please, show me.

People like you are as responsible as the Muslims for the rapes, the stoning, the unjust imprisonments, and the tortures that non-Muslims suffer in Muslim-occupied territories. Your ignorance and your willingness to believe in a false image of Islam facilitates the persecution of non-Muslims. Think about that the next time you accuse someone of lying just because he is showing the true face of Islam.

 

[TG123]

Fondling is only practiced when normal sex is not allowed due to the age of the woman (i.e., when she is too young to withstand normal sex) or when she is in her menses. I don't think Muhammad was talking about the latter circumstances.

You don't think married adult couples fondle each other sometimes instead of having sex? Are you married? Have you heard of Natural Family Planning?

 

[smaneck]

Show me where have I lied. Please, show me.

Most of them are too vulgar to repeat.

People like you are as responsible as the Muslims for the rapes, the stoning, the unjust imprisonments, and the tortures that non-Muslims suffer in Muslim-occupied territories.

Muslims hardly have a monopoly on rape or unjust imprisonments. As for stonings, I've never heard of non-Muslims being subjected to that.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Dear Woodrow,

Mawdudi is more well-known than you seem to think. Along with Sayyid al-Qutb he has become an important ideological inspiration among jihadists throughout the Muslim world, though you are correct that he was not himself a terrorist. Part of the reason he is so popular is because, as you say, he is an easy read. What a lot of people don't realize is that Salafis and jihadists are usually lay people without that much knowledge of traditional Islamic sources. In fact, they tend to reject most of the writings of the Classical period of Islam.

warmest, Susan

My Dear Friend,

Here we have a point of disagreement. I only find Maududi Mentioned on English Language sites. Yes he is quite popular on the Salafi sites, in fact overwhelming popular on them. But the Salafi while a large influence in Pakistan and the Mideast are still virtually unknown to most Muslims.

But they do seem to be spreading among English speaking Muslims in The UK, the USA, Australia and Canada. I am hoping they are a fad that soon vanishes. Their extremism is contrary to Mainstream Islam- Both Sunni and Shi'ite.

 

[TG123]

Show me where have I lied. Please, show me.

People like you are as responsible as the Muslims for the rapes, the stoning, the unjust imprisonments, and the tortures that non-Muslims suffer in Muslim-occupied territories. Your ignorance and your willingness to believe in a false image of Islam facilitates the persecution of non-Muslims. Think about that the next time you accuse someone of lying just because he is showing the true face of Islam.

Regarding Muhammad molesting Aisha when she was a baby, here you have a little pearl: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
I was accompanying the Prophet on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others… When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet said, "Where are you going?" I said, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." … (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 38, Number 504)


Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:
While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married " He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?" When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 16)


Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins AND FOR FONDLING THEM?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)

Where do these hadiths state that Aisha was a baby? Muhammad may have married her when she was young, like many others did back then.


The age of consent in Europe during the Middle Ages was 12-25 years of old. Was Europe a continent of pedophiles?

In Ancient Rome, it was very common for girls to marry and have children shortly after the onset of puberty. Roman law required brides to be at least 12 years old. In Roman law, first marriages to brides aged 12–25 required the consent of the bride and her father, but by the late antique period Roman law permitted women over 25 to marry without parental consent.[3] The Catholic canon law followed the Roman law. In the 12th century, the Catholic Church drastically changed legal standards for marital consent by allowing daughters over 12 and sons over 14 to marry without their parents' approval, even if their marriage was made clandestinely.[4] Parish studies have confirmed that late medieval women did sometimes marry against their parents' approval.[5] The Catholic Church's policy of considering clandestine marriages and marriages made without parental consent to be valid was controversial, and in the 16th century both the French monarchy and the Lutheran church sought to end these practices, with limited success.[6]

Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It is not a healthy thing for girls to marry young and if Muhammad married and had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was a kid, he was following a very unsafe and primitive custom that was set centuries before his birth and continued centuries after his death.

However, having said this, I am waiting for evidence from you that Muhammad molested Aisha when she was a baby.

The hadiths you cited say no such thing.

I am sure you must have evidence that shows that Muhammad molested her when she was a baby. Please show it.

Until you do so, I will continue stating that you have lied.


How do my posts "facilitate" the persecution of non-Muslims? Have you read most of what I have written regarding Islam on this forum? Find posts I have started where I have examined and showed Quranic verses and hadiths that contain mistakes, and then come back and tell me I "believe in a false image of Islam".

 

[WoodrowX2]

Most of them are too vulgar to repeat.



Muslims hardly have a monopoly on rape or unjust imprisonments. As for stonings, I've never heard of non-Muslims being subjected to that.

While Muslims have illegally stoned Muslims to death I agree there is no evidence Muslims have stoned non-Muslims. I say illegally because no one has ever been stoned in a legal sharia court.

Also for clarification:

In recent years there have been several groups guilty of stoning and as they are in the Mideast they often get identified as being Muslim.

Some stonings in Iraq and Afghanistan attributed to Muslims are done by Yazidi. In Palestine the Druze often use stoning and get identified as being Muslim in India the Sikhs often stone their daughters for marrying Muslims and get identified in the media as being Muslim.

In any case for many reasons the stoning of anyone is illegal by Muslims. Unless it is in a legal sharia court in a nation that permits stoning. No Nation I know of permits stoning in their constitution.

As for in a Sharia court, the proof to justify stoning is impossible to fulfill therefore a sentence of stoning is impossible in an actual sharia court.