Which New Testament Text has been kept pure?

[Second Phoenix]

One other thing I learned while taking Greek, is that the rules for Greek are the same as in English. Both languages are heavy in grammer.

Huh? How are the rules for Greek the same in English. Are you suggesting that Greek and English are similar grammatically?

Can you also explain what you mean by 'heavy' on grammar.
I heard that Greek is a very complicated language grammatically, while English is much more simplified.. and that their grammar and rules were vastly different?

 

[Second Phoenix]

More fuel for the fire.

In the KJV (TR) Luke 2:14 reads:

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

Although...that is not entirely correct. Often one of the most misunderstood verses in the NT.

In the Greek, we read:

"Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις θεῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας"

Craig Blomberg points out:



Jesus and the Gospels, Craig Blomberg, Broadman and Holman Publishers, Nashville, Tenn, 1997, Part 4, A Survey of the Life of Christ, Chapter 11, The Birth And Childhood of Jesus, Luke's Infancy Narrative (Luke 1-2), The Birth and Growth of Jesus (2:1-52), p. 206

The Greek text; "ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκίας" indeed does render/translate out as: "men whom God is well pleased".



Source

However, "of good will" may also be accepted. But...since "εὐδοκίας" is a noun, feminine, singular, and genitive, it would translate "of/in/with, etc.". Thus making it a prepositional phrase.



Source

How did the KJ translators, using Erasmus' Textus Receptus get so wrong?

As Arsenio Hall so often said:





Points to ponder.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I noticed that form of declension is the same for both the genitive and accusative case. In which case in the accusative form would make it 'good will toward men'. How do you know that the genitive is the declension the authors intended?

If the word is the same in both accusative or genitive form, how can the authors be wrong in their interpretation?

 

[DeaconDean]

Huh? How are the rules for Greek the same in English. Are you suggesting that Greek and English are similar grammatically?

Can you also explain what you mean by 'heavy' on grammar.
I heard that Greek is a very complicated language grammatically, while English is much more simplified.. and that their grammar and rules were vastly different?

Have you ever tried to "diagram" a Greek sentence?

The same rules apply in Greek as they do in English.

Simple:

Most nouns in Greek, as in English, fall into three categories: masculine, feminine, Neuter. And of course, singular or plural.

And in Greek, as in English, you have "case":

Nominative=Subject, noun/pronoun. "Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her" (Eph 5:25). The word "Christ" is in the nominative case in Greek and is therefore the subject of this sentence.

Genitive=is a prepostion, usually shown by "with", "of", etc. "But you have received a spirit of sonship..." (Rom 8:15). The word "sonship" is in the genitive case.

Dative=indirect object. "Jesus said to them", "to them" is in the dative case because they received what Jesus said.

Accusative=direct object. As newborn babes, long for the guiless milk of the word" (1 Peter 2:2). The word "milk" is in the accusative case and is functioning as the direct object of the transitive verb "long for" (or "desire").

Vocative=case of direct address. Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59). Here Stephen is directly addressing the Lord, so the form of "Lord Jesus" is in the vocative case.

Verbs are the same as in English: person (1st, 2nd, 3rd), tense (past, present, future), voice (active, passive, middle), mood (imperative, subjunctive, and optative, and these fall into further categories: (indicative, imperative, subjunctive, optative).

That is why one of the first things you learn in Greek, is how to "parse" nouns and verbs.

Parse: grammar : to divide (a sentence) into grammatical parts and identify the parts and their relations to each other

Source

When you translate the Koine Greek into English, especially if you diagram the sentence because then you know the gramitical make up, you can very easily place each word in its proper place.

The same rules apply in Greek as in English for the most part because both languages are heavy in grammer.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but practice helps.

If you excelled in English grammer in school, then Greek would be no trouble.

God Bless

TIll all are one.

 

[Second Phoenix]

Have you ever tried to "diagram" a Greek sentence?

The same rules apply in Greek as they do in English.

I am not sure what you mean. In English the diagram of a sentence - subject, verb, direct object, indirect object, etc is determined by the order of words in the sentence.

Greek, like earlier Indo-European languages, relies on the declension of nouns and conjugation to determine their meaning - that is the relationship of words and actions- or as we understand in English, their 'place' in this sentence. Over the centuries, declensions were abandoned in favor of using order within a sentence.

German, for example, continues to have many holdovers from declensions than English does. Its grammar is considered much more complex than English. English has holdovers from its earlier forms. For example, we still conjugate verbs within a particular tense based on first, second, or third person and the singular or plural. This is actually no longer necessary. "I are going to the store" conveys the same meaning as "I am going to the store." We no longer need to conjugate verbs in this way, but we do so because it 'sounds strange'.

Simple:

Most nouns, as in English, fall into three categories: masculine, feminine, Neuter. And of course, singular or plural.

I really don't understand you here. I have never heard this before. As far as I know, English doesn't have masculine, feminine or neuter nouns. German does, as do Latin and Greek. I don't know how gender can be seen in nouns today.

Nominative=Subjuct, noun/pronoun.

Genitive=is a prepostion, usually shown by "with", "of", etc.

Dative=indirect object

Accusative=direct object

Vocative=case of direct address

Yes, I understand cases - but they are determined in English by place, not by declension.

Verbs are the same as in English: person (1st, 2nd, 3rd), tense (past, present, future), voice (active, passive, middle), mood (imperative, subjunctive, and optative, and these fall into further categories: (indicative, imperative, subjunctive, optative).

Are you saying that English doesn't have number? That is, verbs are based on person and number. The first person singular of 'to be' is am, while the first person plural is 'are' (I am, we are). Greek, as far as I know, as singular, dual, and plural. But, you seem to be the expert here.

I have never heard of the middle voice in English. What is an example of that?

I know that English has indicative and subjunctive (sort of) moods. The subjunctive isn't found in conjugations as it is in other languages. Rather, the subjunctive emerges from the use of certain words like "should" or "would". There is a kind of artificial imperative mood "Go!", but how is there an optative mood?

That is why one of the first things you learn in Greek, is how to "parse" nouns and verbs.

Hmm. That must be difficult

When you translate the Koine Greek into English, especially if you diagram the sentence because then you know the gramitical make up, you can very easily place each word in its proper place.

I have no idea what you are getting at here? Why do you think that words have 'places' in the Greek? As Greek is language that relies on declension, words can be placed in any order you wish. English relies on word order.

The same rules apply in Greek as in English for the most part because both languages are heavy in grammer.

I have no idea what you mean here. What does being 'heavy in grammar' mean?

If you excelled in English grammer in school, then Greek would be no trouble.

God Bless

TIll all are one.

Again, I don't understand you. As far as I know, Greek and English follow totally different rules. Greek uses declensions whereas English relies on word order.

More confusing in translating, I heard, is that different words follow different forms of declension. For example, Greek has three declensions. The first declension has six types. The second has six. The third has, depending on your view, one to two dozen. That's not including singular/dual/plural forms.

Then there are the various functions of cases which have no English equivalent and taking strict Greek grammar would be incorrect.

For example in Greek there is the Dativus modi or dative of the manner (you are probably familiar with this, right?). This is used to connect the manner of an action. "I died of scurvy" - a beginning Greek student might look at 'of' and think of making scurvy genitive, when in fact, it ought to be dative since it is the way in which something occurred. The genitive would make the sentence very strange, wouldn't it? As a Greek scholar, I am sure you see the humor

 

[DeaconDean]

I am not sure what you mean. In English the diagram of a sentence - subject, verb, direct object, indirect object, etc is determined by the order of words in the sentence.

Greek, like earlier Indo-European languages, relies on the declension of nouns and conjugation to determine their meaning - that is the relationship of words and actions- or as we understand in English, their 'place' in this sentence. Over the centuries, declensions were abandoned in favor of using order within a sentence.

German, for example, continues to have many holdovers from declensions than English does. Its grammar is considered much more complex than English. English has holdovers from its earlier forms. For example, we still conjugate verbs within a particular tense based on first, second, or third person and the singular or plural. This is actually no longer necessary. "I are going to the store" conveys the same meaning as "I am going to the store." We no longer need to conjugate verbs in this way, but we do so because it 'sounds strange'.



I really don't understand you here. I have never heard this before. As far as I know, English doesn't have masculine, feminine or neuter nouns. German does, as do Latin and Greek. I don't know how gender can be seen in nouns today.



Yes, I understand cases - but they are determined in English by place, not by declension.



Are you saying that English doesn't have number? That is, verbs are based on person and number. The first person singular of 'to be' is am, while the first person plural is 'are' (I am, we are). Greek, as far as I know, as singular, dual, and plural. But, you seem to be the expert here.

I have never heard of the middle voice in English. What is an example of that?

I know that English has indicative and subjunctive (sort of) moods. The subjunctive isn't found in conjugations as it is in other languages. Rather, the subjunctive emerges from the use of certain words like "should" or "would". There is a kind of artificial imperative mood "Go!", but how is there an optative mood?



Hmm. That must be difficult



I have no idea what you are getting at here? Why do you think that words have 'places' in the Greek? As Greek is language that relies on declension, words can be placed in any order you wish. English relies on word order.



I have no idea what you mean here. What does being 'heavy in grammar' mean?



Again, I don't understand you. As far as I know, Greek and English follow totally different rules. Greek uses declensions whereas English relies on word order.

More confusing in translating, I heard, is that different words follow different forms of declension. For example, Greek has three declensions. The first declension has six types. The second has six. The third has, depending on your view, one to two dozen. That's not including singular/dual/plural forms.

Then there are the various functions of cases which have no English equivalent and taking strict Greek grammar would be incorrect.

For example in Greek there is the Dativus modi or dative of the manner (you are probably familiar with this, right?). This is used to connect the manner of an action. "I died of scurvy" - a beginning Greek student might look at 'of' and think of making scurvy genitive, when in fact, it ought to be dative since it is the way in which something occurred. The genitive would make the sentence very strange, wouldn't it? As a Greek scholar, I am sure you see the humor

Your just used to English, that is the problem.

In Greek, the placement is not important.

In the Greek, the subject can be the very last word of a sentence, and the verb the first.

That was a hard lesson for me to learn.

See, I was only taught the five cases, in fact, Mounce teaches seven cases.

I learned Greek fron G. Gresham Machen's book, "New Testament Greek for Beginners".

Any who, since your convinced I'm wrong, so be it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Second Phoenix]

Your just used to English, that is the problem.

In Greek, the placement is not important.

In the Greek, the subject can be the very last word of a sentence, and the verb the first.

Hmm, it's late and I must be confused. I thought I was the one that said placement wasn't important?

Was I the one that said "I have no idea what you are getting at here? Why do you think that words have 'places' in the Greek? As Greek is language that relies on declension, words can be placed in any order you wish. English relies on word order."?

That was a hard lesson for me to learn.

Hopefully I'll be as much of a scholar and teacher in Greek as you are!

See, I was only taught the five cases, in fact, Mounce teaches seven cases.

I learned Greek fron G. Gresham Machen's book, "New Testament Greek for Beginners".

Any who, since your convinced I'm wrong, so be it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Where did I say you are wrong? I just had questions. As a professor of Greek, I hope that you will address my questions and help me to understand God's word better

Did you like my humor about the genitive? It's the kinda thing, I heard (who said I know anything about Greek) that one can only understand conceptually by having a knowledge of Greek. I am just trying to learn. I eagerly anticipate you answering my questions from my previous post.

 

[DeaconDean]

You said:

As far as I know, English doesn't have masculine, feminine or neuter nouns.

Tell me, what gender is "a rock", "the table", or "a pencil"?

And unless I read wrong, wasn't it you who also said:

In English the diagram of a sentence - subject, verb, direct object, indirect object, etc is determined by the order of words in the sentence.

A perfect example from the Greek is:

"Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." -Jn. 1:1 Greek NT

Here, logos (word), and theos (God) are both nominative, but since logos has the "o" preceeding it, that makes it the subject.

And notice the placement.

If you were to translate lierally, as written, it would read:

"In (the) beginning was the word and the word was with god and god was the word."

Yet in any bible, it reads:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

So unless I'm wrong, you said placement was important in English, while I said it wasn't in Greek, but from parsing the sentence, no matter where the substantive is, we can know the subject of the sentence.

By diagraming the Greek, we can discern where the placement should be in English.

But hey, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Second Phoenix]

You said:



Tell me, what gender is "a rock", "the table", or "a pencil"?

And unless I read wrong, wasn't it you who also said:

Hi again I don't know what gender any of those words are in English. I thought you were the one that said English had genders? Was it not you that said: "Most nouns, as in English, fall into three categories: masculine, feminine, Neuter. And of course, singular or plural."

I was confused on this, as I never thought English had gendered nouns. Excepts for those weird holdovers, like calling ships "she".

By the way, being a scripture scholar, are you trying to throw me off on rock? Shame on you I mean, you know that rock is feminine and that Christ referred to Peter, called Simon with masculine declension? At least, that is what I heard. Can you imagine being able to read the bible in Greek? Gosh!

If you think that nouns in English fall into those categories, wouldn't you need to be the one to tell me what genders those are in English?

I certainly don't claim to be a language expert - but I heard somewhere that other languages divide them into genders. For example, I may be wrong here, but German (in the nominative form) has Der (masc) Die (fem) and Das (neut) as articles for nouns, while in English we just say "the". German then has different rules for the article in other case, supposedly. I heard somewhere that in Spanish, the gender is determined by word ending which determines the article. Is it true there is no neuter? There are generally rules for this. I think Spanish has male and female with singular or plural articles. Although the word endings are apparently not absolute. For example "El Mapa" How funny! I can't believe that sounds okay to them

A perfect example from the Greek is:

"Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." -Jn. 1:1 Greek NT

Here, logos (word), and theos (God) are both nominative, but since logos has the "o" preceeding it, that makes it the subject.

Hrm, so all words that end in o are the subject in Greek?

Now all those weird letters don't make sense to me. I am just guessing here, but the only word that I see that ends in omnicron, I mean, "o" are the articles. Sorry, I mean the direct articles. The word for Logos ends in 'os.' How does Logos end in o?

And notice the placement.

They just look like funny lines to me. Can you explain what you mean?

So unless I'm wrong, you said placement was important in English, while I said it wasn't in Greek,

Oh, you said that before this post, before I said that?

but from parsing the sentence, no matter where the substantive is, we can know the subject of the sentence.

I thought that is what I said? I thought I said placement was not necessary?

By diagraming the Greek, we can discern where the placement should be in English.

Awesome I learn something new everyday. What about those declension holdovers and oddities like - "To the people of the United State, I say, to each be kind"

But hey, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well, I never taught five Greek courses from Machen's book.
With your expertise in Greek, I wondered why you haven't responded to my questions about the KJV - good will towards men.

If you can help me understand what the authors ended when two forms of declension are used, you could really help me out!

 

[DeaconDean]

With your expertise in Greek, I wondered why you haven't responded to my questions about the KJV - good will towards men.

Actually, I have already answrered that, and it translates out as "on earth, peace towards men of good will".

See: http://www.christianforums.com/t7782775-3/#post64574910

But here again, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Second Phoenix]

Did you?
Since the accusative and genitive are the same, how can you say the genitive is the case intended?

 

[DeaconDean]

Since you are "the authority" I will bow to you.

However, on John 1:1 I cite:

The anicent Arian heresy (still reflected in certain modern cults) stressed the fact that "God" in the Greek lacks the definite article. They translated the verse as < "the Word was a god," making Christ the first created being, however exalted he may have been. This translation overlooks the gramatical principle that in vast majority of cases in a sentnce of the form "x" is "y" (two nouns joined by a form of the verb "to be"), if the author wants to distinguish one of the nouns as the subject of the sentence, then only that noun is given the artilce. (*) In other words, the form of this sentence ensures that we take "the Word" as the subject, rather than translating "God was the Word".

(*) This rule is often called Colwell's rule, after the detailed examination of it by Greek grammarian E. C. Colwell in "A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New Testiment," JBL 52, (1933): 12-21

But here again, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Second Phoenix]

Since you are "the authority" I will bow to you.

However, on John 1:1 I cite:



(*) This rule is often called Colwell's rule, after the detailed examination of it by Greek grammarian E. C. Colwell in "A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New Testiment," JBL 52, (1933): 12-21

But here again, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hi DeaconDean, I am not claiming to be an authority on such matters

I heard somewhere that articles are actually an Indo-European concept that is mostly dominate today in western forms. Do you think this is true?

Regarding this, I thought that Latin had no articles. In this way, when translating Latin indefinite and definite articles they must be added by the translator when going from Latin to English. That is one has to add "a/an" "the" etc... Greek, on the other hand, someone once told me, has definite articles with an implied indefinite article. The implied indefinite articles are added by the translator if they think they should be added. That is to see that Greek says 'I bought "the dog"' and 'I bought "(a) dog"'

I could be wrong here, but in John 1:1, you post some omnicrons... er, "o"s which I am guessing makes them definite articles.

I mean, technically. I just checked some of the earlier manuscripts and I still see the definite article... I mean "o"s.

 

[DeaconDean]

Did you?
Since the accusative and genitive are the same, how can you say the genitive is the case intended?

Please consult any good Greek Lexicon.

My lexicon, The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, by Wesley J. Pershbacher, Hendrickson Publishing Company, Peabody, Mass., Copyright 1990, has them listed as Genitive.

I also use, the Hebrew/Greek/English Interliner By Jay P. Greene.

And unless I'm mistaken, isn't the ending between Genitive and Accusative different?

Genitive: Masc: u; Fem: V; Neut: u; So we can conclude that genitive end in either "u" or "s", while

Acc.: Masc: n; Fem.: n: Neut.: n

End in "n"

But here again, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I mean, technically. I just checked some of the earlier manuscripts and I still see the definite article... I mean "o"s which I wonder if they are definite articles 'cuz it's all Greek to me

Mounce teaches:

Definite Article​

S.41 Agreement

. The article has case, number, and gender. The article always agrees with the noun that it modifies in case, number, and gender.

​

S.42 Article​

​

. The Greek article is usually translated &#8220;the.&#8221; The general rule is to translate according to the presence or absence of the article. If an article is present, translate it. If there is no article, do not use &#8220;the.&#8221;
&#8226; There are times when the meaning of the article seems to shift. o de means, &#8220;but he.&#8221;
​

Summary of Greek Basics, William Mounce, 2000

"o" with the dipthong, is pronounced "ho".

God Bless

Till all are one.
​

 

[Second Phoenix]

Please consult any good Greek Lexicon.

My lexicon, The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, by Wesley J. Pershbacher, Hendrickson Publishing Company, Peabody, Mass., Copyright 1990, has them listed as Genitive.

And unless I'm mistaken, isn't the ending between Genitive and Accusative different?

Genitive: Masc: u; Fem: V; Neut: u; So we can conclude that genitive end in either "u" or "s", while

Acc.: Masc: n; Fem.: n: Neut.: n

End in "n"

But here again, what do I know right?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Erm, I heard that declensions differ depending on the word, person, number and case. That is to say that not all nouns have the same ending based on their case. It depends on the noun and it's gender and number. Is this not true?

I thought I said something about the three declensions and the dozens of types each with a different ending depending on case?

Since we are using the Roman alphabet, I'll simplify my basic knowledge of early Indo-European language.

Latin first feminine declension:
Nom (a), Voc (a), Acc (am), Gen (ae), Dat (ae), Abl (a), Loc (ae).
Wow, if this is true, it becomes a guessing came of how to translate it into English, no? Now imagine this concepts applies to multiple categories of declensions, genders, number, etc

In the case of good will or pleasing, in Greek, I thought the genitive and accusative have the same ending?

That means, as I understand, it can be parsed as good will towards men or men of good will, no?

Those funny letters look the same for both the genitive case and the accusative.

 

[DeaconDean]

You know, any Christian seminary or university will allow you to "audit" Greek classes don't you?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

And it functions as a definite article, no?



I heard somewhere that using basic software tools doesn't substitute for having an understanding of the language, its structure, and its particular rules. How would one get at the various dative, accusative, vocative, ablative, etc rules via software the parses the language?

The lexicon I use, no matter how is used in the Greek NT, you can find the parsed word. And based on how it's parsed, it tells you whether its Nom, gen, dat, acc, voc.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Erm, I heard that declensions differ depending on the word, person, number and case. That is to say that not all nouns have the same ending based on their case. It depends on the noun and it's gender and number. Is this not true?

I thought I said something about the three declensions and the dozens of types each with a different ending depending on case?

Since we are using the Roman alphabet, I'll simplify my basic knowledge of early Indo-European language.

Latin first feminine declension:
Nom (a), Voc (a), Acc (am), Gen (ae), Dat (ae), Abl (a), Loc (ae).
Wow, if this is true, it becomes a guessing came of how to translate it into English, no? Now imagine this concepts applies to multiple categories of declensions, genders, number, etc

In the case of good will or pleasing, in Greek, I thought the genitive and accusative have the same ending?

That means, as I understand, it can be parsed as good will towards men or men of good will, no?

Those funny letters look the same for both the genitive case and the accusative.

You should see the parsing of the Greek word "auto".

Some twenty-seven ways.

God Bless

Till all are one.