The Big Bang (Hypothesis) vs. Creationism

[Davian]

Did the universe prior to that have a "beginning" as we might understand it? I do not claim to know. Do you?

Would cause-and-effect as we observe it within the universe currently apply to the conditions, at the quantum level, that existed prior to the expansion/inflation of the cosmos? Experts in that field say no. Do you know different?

-Cause=God, Effect=Universe

In your opinion.

If there was a cause required, why would it need to be a deity?

 

[Davian]

-God is mine and your creator. God created everything you see, everything you will see. God is someone you will meet one day if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior. God is someone that you can get to know through faith and reading the Holy Bible.

-God made the universe by speaking it in to existence.

When all else fails, preach.

 

[variant]

-God is mine and your creator. God created everything you see, everything you will see. God is someone you will meet one day if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior. God is someone that you can get to know through faith and reading the Holy Bible.

-God made the universe by speaking it in to existence.

If you'll notice, you've given me a dogmatic description of what God is (including an odd promise/threat), and a very meatless answer to the how problem (putting it mildly).

Without either of these, I don't think you've actually proposed anything at all to me. What you say about "God" (a proposed entity you clearly don't understand very well) doesn't really give me any info on the universe and the relationship of the two.

So a new question:

Why do people feel the need to expound on ideas they clearly haven't the first clue about?

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

In your opinion.

If there was a cause required, why would it need to be a deity?

If I may..

I would posit that there is a dualistic paradigm intrinsic to our reality, coupled with morality and how without an objective source, it seemingly cannot exist, leading to a perpetual downward spiral of our eithics and the positive reinforcement they can provide, so long as we have an objective source.

As an intellect, my mind, which is rather abstract in its imaginative ability, still cant reconcile the formation of life on earth by mechanical processes alone, not with the insurmountable odds it would face to pull off such a feat..

Ive been through the scientific and philosophical route, I can argue both positions for and against God, but I feel the evidence is in Gods favor from an intuitive aspect, as well as the evidence I believe we have for the events in the Bible. It parallels history flawlessly based on my research thus far.


I submit that a creator in fact exists on these premises alone.

 

[Kylie]

If I may..

I would posit that there is a dualistic paradigm intrinsic to our reality...

What doies this mean when translated out of buzzwords?

coupled with morality and how without an objective source, it seemingly cannot exist...

I would argue against an objective morality. And don't trot out murder. it's easy to make things cut and dry when it's an extreme example. But if my daughter steals a lollypop, am I morally right or morally wrong for smacking her?

...leading to a perpetual downward spiral of our eithics and the positive reinforcement they can provide, so long as we have an objective source.

Actually, countries without a great deal of religion have some of the highest standards of living on the planet.

As an intellect, my mind, which is rather abstract in its imaginative ability, still cant reconcile the formation of life on earth by mechanical processes alone, not with the insurmountable odds it would face to pull off such a feat..

But evolution was not random.

Ive been through the scientific and philosophical route, I can argue both positions for and against God, but I feel the evidence is in Gods favor from an intuitive aspect, as well as the evidence I believe we have for the events in the Bible. It parallels history flawlessly based on my research thus far.

Despite the fact that we have no evidence of the enslavement of the Israelites by the Egyptians or the plagues of Egypt except for the Bible?

I submit that a creator in fact exists on these premises alone.

Obviously, I disagree.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

What doies this mean when translated out of buzzwords?



I would argue against an objective morality. And don't trot out murder. it's easy to make things cut and dry when it's an extreme example. But if my daughter steals a lollypop, am I morally right or morally wrong for smacking her?



Actually, countries without a great deal of religion have some of the highest standards of living on the planet.



But evolution was not random.



Despite the fact that we have no evidence of the enslavement of the Israelites by the Egyptians or the plagues of Egypt except for the Bible?



Obviously, I disagree.

What do you mean evolution isnt random? Evolution in terms of a genome becoming another genome doesn't exist.

Are you referring to adaptation?

Why would there be any artifacts of an enslaved people in Egypt from 3700 years ago?

The culture was Egyptian..

 

[pchilde3]

If you'll notice, you've given me a dogmatic description of what God is (including an odd promise/threat), and a very meatless answer to the how problem (putting it mildly).

Without either of these, I don't think you've actually proposed anything at all to me. What you say about "God" (a proposed entity you clearly don't understand very well) doesn't really give me any info on the universe and the relationship of the two.

So a new question:

Why do people feel the need to expound on ideas they clearly haven't the first clue about?

-You are right. It is a dogmatic description. It is undeniable that God exists. God is the answer to all the unanswered questions in this thread, and in the universe. God created the vast universe to show his power and to prove that nothing else is capable to create something so complex, and so great. This isn't a science class. If you want to use the tools man has gave you to better understand the universe then do some research or sit through a class. I believe that man has gave us many useful tools. The same tools can be used to show that there is an undeniable truth that nothing else other than God could have created the universe.

-Ask yourself, where did you come from? Your mother and father right? Track that all the way back to the very beginning. It makes sense that eventually the lineage leads to just two people. So where did those two people come from? Do you believe they just appeared? To deny God's existence is the stupidest thing, in my opinion, a man can do. You are afraid of something you don't know. You are afraid to have faith. And for that you should be scared. Because without God, you will perish forever in hell. But with God, you will live forever in Heaven and be without worry.

 

[pchilde3]

In your opinion.

If there was a cause required, why would it need to be a deity?

-How could you question if there was a cause? Do you honestly believe that everything just miraculously happened without any cause? No, you are wrong. The universe didn't just "happen". God is the cause.

-Why would it not need to be a God?

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

-You are right. It is a dogmatic description. It is undeniable that God exists. God is the answer to all the unanswered questions in this thread, and in the universe. God created the vast universe to show his power and to prove that nothing else is capable to create something so complex, and so great. This isn't a science class. If you want to use the tools man has gave you to better understand the universe then do some research or sit through a class. I believe that man has gave us many useful tools. The same tools can be used to show that there is an undeniable truth that nothing else other than God could have created the universe.

-Ask yourself, where did you come from? Your mother and father right? Track that all the way back to the very beginning. It makes sense that eventually the lineage leads to just two people. So where did those two people come from? Do you believe they just appeared? To deny God's existence is the stupidest thing, in my opinion, a man can do. You are afraid of something you don't know. You are afraid to have faith. And for that you should be scared. Because without God, you will perish forever in hell. But with God, you will live forever in Heaven and be without worry.

People tend to take that as a threat when you are talking to a disbeliever.

Id say that by showing them the contrast betwixt Gods love, and lucifers vanity and how it manifests in our lives would be a better route.

You also should consider that your average atheist is highly intellectual, essentially to a fault, in which subjective thinking often is mistaken for objective fact.

The atheist is essentially trying to reconcile a physical reality, against something they cant physically observe or even apply scientific philosophy to, but they are incorrect.

We as humans do in fact have the ability to perceive God, but those in sin, or who have rejected him are the furthest from God, and they dont even realize it.

The atheist can ask anything of God, and he will begin the work to flood them with understanding. They may have to be patient, but it does come eventually..

It also comes with exhibiting a little respect. Being cross with God in your demands doesnt come close to gaining his attention..

Be polite, ask God to make himself known to you that you may benefit from his Gift to us, ask that he custom tailor his approach to your particular intellectual understanding of this world..

I did, and what happened to me can only be explained by Gods Holy Spirit.

 

[pchilde3]

People tend to take that as a threat when you are talking to a disbeliever.

Id say that by showing them the contrast betwixt Gods love, and lucifers vanity and how it manifests in our lives would be a better route.

You also should consider that your average atheist is highly intellectual, essentially to a fault, in which subjective thinking often is mistaken for objective fact.

The atheist is essentially trying to reconcile a physical reality, against something they cant physically observe or even apply scientific philosophy to, but they are incorrect.

We as humans do in fact have the ability to perceive God, but those in sin, or who have rejected him are the furthest from God, and they dont even realize it.

The atheist can ask anything of God, and he will begin the work to flood them with understanding. They may have to be patient, but it does come eventually..

It also comes with exhibiting a little respect. Being cross with God in your demands doesnt come close to gaining his attention..

Be polite, ask God to make himself known to you that you may benefit from his Gift to us, ask that he custom tailor his approach to your particular intellectual understanding of this world..

I did, and what happened to me can only be explained by Gods Holy Spirit.

-Thank you for your reply. It is very difficult to witness to such die-hard atheist. My entire intention was to use a tool, the Big Bang, as a way to connect with them and lead them to the undeniable truth that there is a God and he is our creator. I wasn't trying to be cross, God reminds us time after time in the Bible that without faith we will perish. It is great that you have accepted Gods Holy Spirit! I will keep the people of this thread in my prayers.

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

-Thank you for your reply. It is very difficult to witness to such die-hard atheist. My entire intention was to use a tool, the Big Bang, as a way to connect with them and lead them to the undeniable truth that there is a God and he is our creator. I wasn't trying to be cross, God reminds us time after time in the Bible that without faith we will perish. It is great that you have accepted Gods Holy Spirit! I will keep the people of this thread in my prayers.

I was never an atheist, as a philosopher, I couldn't reconcile Socrates "All I know, is that I know nothing" and claim that atheism was objective. Same with God, in which I was an ardent middle of the road agnostic, even dipping into pantheistic ideology, only find truth in Christ. I found out how all of his principle teachings were the reason my life was incomplete, and what he describes happening to those in sin just absolutely floored me when I realized he was talking about my life..

As for God, he worked in my life in a way that blindsided me with his perfect beautiful truth.

When I read the words "The truth will set you free" I understood what that verse truly meant for the first time..

When you know, you know, and the fear of death no longer concerns you so much as the fear of the 2nd death, or eternal damnation..

 

[Davian]

If I may..

I would posit that there is a dualistic paradigm intrinsic to our reality, coupled with morality and how without an objective source, it seemingly cannot exist, leading to a perpetual downward spiral of our eithics and the positive reinforcement they can provide, so long as we have an objective source.

If it is objective, then it should be demonstrable. Give it a try.

As an intellect, my mind, which is rather abstract in its imaginative ability, still cant reconcile the formation of life on earth by mechanical processes alone, not with the insurmountable odds it would face to pull off such a feat..

What are the odds for that? Show your data and math, or retract.

Ive been through the scientific and philosophical route, I can argue both positions for and against God, but I feel the evidence is in Gods favor from an intuitive aspect, as well as the evidence I believe we have for the events in the Bible. It parallels history flawlessly based on my research thus far.

From the balance of your post, I cannot be sure that you have "researched" past the end of your nose.

I submit that a creator in fact exists on these premises alone.

What creator?

 

[Davian]

-How could you question if there was a cause?

I do not know that a cause was required.

Do you honestly believe that everything just miraculously happened without any cause?

No, I can honestly say that I don't know.

No, you are wrong.

In your opinion.

The universe didn't just "happen". God is the cause.

In your opinion.

If you think I am wrong, answer my question: Would cause-and-effect as we observe it within the universe currently apply to the conditions, at the quantum level, that existed prior to the expansion/inflation of the cosmos? Experts in that field say no. Do you know different?

-Why would it not need to be a God?

I asked, why would it need to be a deity? I don't claim to know what is required to create a universe, or what options there would be, if any, or how much power it would take, if any. Perhaps it was something with the intelligence of a toaster oven, a multiverse mechanism that, every so often, pops out a universe, and you get what you get. Perhaps it was simpler than that.

Do you have anything other than untestable, unfalsifiable assertions?

Are you here to do philosophy, or to just preach?

 

[xXChristPeripheralXx]

If it is objective, then it should be demonstrable. Give it a try.

What are the odds for that? Show your data and math, or retract.

From the balance of your post, I cannot be sure that you have "researched" past the end of your nose.

What creator?

My mind cant conceive of a number or formula to place the odds within acceptable scientific theory, and certainly not Occams Razor..

We are talking about accretion forming the earth from a state where all matter was in the form of an atom before coalescence.. How many atoms are in the Universe?

I wouldnt even know where to start without being able to recreate the event against the control.


Regarding Objective morality, there is no basis for morality within human beings without God.

This is an indefensible argument because you have no objective source of intrinsic morality without God.

The greatest atheists in the world collapse on this argument, I doubt you will propose anything different..

I can prove morality is in fact subjective without God.

You can too, just ask 5 people what the right thing to do in a tramatic situation is, they will give you inconclusive results.. I promise.

Regarding which Creator, we call him YHWH, or Yahweh.

He also gives his name as "I AM that I AM".

You are trying to reconcile Gods creation against his existence..

Kinda like the flea not believing in the dog..

Thats why science will never breach this reality without that pesky mathematical result we hate so much, which is in fact Gods fingerprint.

Infinity.

 

[Davian]

My mind cant conceive of a number or formula to place the odds within acceptable scientific theory, and certainly not Occams Razor..

The argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

We are talking about accretion forming the earth from a state where all matter was in the form of an atom before coalescence.. How many atoms are in the Universe?

Your claim, you figure it out.

I wouldnt even know where to start without being able to recreate the event against the control.

So you were bluffing about knowing the odds.

Regarding Objective morality, there is no basis for morality within human beings without God.

Sure we do. We have reason, human wellness and empathy.

This is an indefensible argument because you have no objective source of intrinsic morality without God.

I do not posit the existence of objective morality.

The greatest atheists in the world collapse on this argument, I doubt you will propose anything different..

On what do you base that assumption?

I can prove morality is in fact subjective without God.

You can too, just ask 5 people what the right thing to do in a tramatic situation is, they will give you inconclusive results.. I promise.

That is not proof. That would make you wrong about having proof.

Regarding which Creator, we call him YHWH, or Yahweh.

What I meant was, the big bang theory does not posit a creator.

He also gives his name as "I AM that I AM".

Was that not the name of a Doctor Seuss book?

You are trying to reconcile Gods creation against his existence..

No, I am not.

Kinda like the flea not believing in the dog..

I don't discuss theism with fleas. Do you?

Thats why science will never breach this reality without that pesky mathematical result we hate so much, which is in fact Gods fingerprint.

Infinity.

That is not a fact.

Do you have anything other than untestable, unfalsifiable assertions?

Are you here to do philosophy, or to just preach?

 

[variant]

-You are right. It is a dogmatic description. It is undeniable that God exists. God is the answer to all the unanswered questions in this thread, and in the universe. God created the vast universe to show his power and to prove that nothing else is capable to create something so complex, and so great. This isn't a science class. If you want to use the tools man has gave you to better understand the universe then do some research or sit through a class. I believe that man has gave us many useful tools. The same tools can be used to show that there is an undeniable truth that nothing else other than God could have created the universe.

Clearly you don't understand the definitions of the following words:

Undeniable, explanation and answer

-Ask yourself, where did you come from? Your mother and father right? Track that all the way back to the very beginning. It makes sense that eventually the lineage leads to just two people. So where did those two people come from? Do you believe they just appeared? To deny God's existence is the stupidest thing, in my opinion, a man can do. You are afraid of something you don't know. You are afraid to have faith. And for that you should be scared. Because without God, you will perish forever in hell. But with God, you will live forever in Heaven and be without worry.

Postulating a being I don't understand using methods I don't understand to resolve some gap in my knowledge doesn't actually do the trick.

Call me stupid and threaten me all you like; you don't have the first clue what you're talking about when you take the haughty stance that you've explained anything at all.

It's all just posturing, baseless, shallow posturing.

 

[variant]

The atheist can ask anything of God, and he will begin the work to flood them with understanding. They may have to be patient, but it does come eventually..

I ask God to speak for himself.

Doesn't seem to work so far.

 

[Received]

I ask God to speak for himself.

Doesn't seem to work so far.

And he will, when you wake up after dying and in the love and warmth of God you realize YOU'RE BURNING IN HELL FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER!

(Pass the donation plate.)

 

[Kylie]

What do you mean evolution isnt random? Evolution in terms of a genome becoming another genome doesn't exist.

When I say that evolution isn't random, I mean that the variations that are passed on from parent to child to grandchild are not random. Variations that help the children are passed on because those variations made it easier for the parents to survive long enough to have babies. Variations that harm the child probably won't be passed on, because any animal that has them is likely to die before having many babies.

Are you referring to adaptation?

Evolution is the way animals adapt to their environment.

Why would there be any artifacts of an enslaved people in Egypt from 3700 years ago?

The culture was Egyptian..

Why wouldn't there be? Do you think that a society could have its entire labour force just walk off the job and life would go on as normal? Of course not. The Egyptian society would be thrown into chaos. And yet there is no record of this. Why not?

 

[variant]

And he will, when you wake up after dying and in the love and warmth of God you realize YOU'RE BURNING IN HELL FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER!

(Pass the donation plate.)

Does it strike you as odd that Atheists often think more highly of possible Gods judgment on such matters?

I shouldn't even be capable of imagining a better being if some theists are correct, and yet some people believe in a psychopath that would begrudge me for not believing in something that to me simply doesn't seem to exist.