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What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

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janxharris

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Nice juke there. I was talking about the resurrection. You added the part about Christ dying for sinners like them.

Bad form, bro.

Under Calvinism, Paul told men about the resurrection of Christ whilst knowing at the same time that Christ did not rise from the dead for some of them. That makes Paul a deceiver of men. Woefully so.
 
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Epiphoskei

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If it was the case, as you assert, that when Paul originally preached to the unbelieving Corinthians he had actually told them that Christ had died for his (Paul's) and the other members of the church's sins, and not necessarily for their (unbelieving Corinthians) sins, then in the letter, Paul is reminding them of this. This would, presumably, apply to the resurrection as well. So the gospel is, essentially, that Christ's death and resurrection are only for believers. It isn't for those that God determined it would not be for.
I'm glad we've finally been able to come to agreement on this point. However, that makes what you're about to say inconsistent.

Your problem is that Paul fails to make this point explicitly. His language in 1 Corinthians 15 is not consistent with such a gospel.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,​
Shouldn't Paul rather have said something like this:
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for believers sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day for believers only, according to the Scriptures,​
Since you have agreed that, if in the original context Paul preached a gospel wherein Christ's death was intrinsically efficacious for those who believe, he is referring to this message in I Cor 15, why would it be necessary for Paul to make that "explicit." It's what Paul preached, it's what the Corinthians remembered Paul preaching, and it's not precluded by pronoun choice.

You have already agreed that it is not a natural or necessary way of speaking to explicitly exclude the irrelevant. When I tell my wife "I have made reservations for us for dinner," I do not need to actually say "I have made reservations for us only for dinner." I and my wife and all parties who might overhear this are fully aware that when a man tells his wife he's taking her to dinner without qualification, that's a date meant just for the two of them. Paul and the Corinthians and everyone familiar with the Biblical doctrine of atonement as it was understood at least past the point Paul was writing all understood that an atoning death is a thing which reconciles God and man and is efficaciously, not potentially, salvific. Had Paul qualified "and this doesn't mean unsaved people are also saved," the reader's response ought to have been the same as what my wife would say if I said "and just so you know, no one else is coming on our date": "well, duh."

So Paul made it clear beyond doubt that under no circumstances is anyone to preach the gospel to unbelievers and give them the impression that Christ died and rose from the dead for them necessarily? He established this did he? So, when he finally did say in his letter, 'this is what we preach', nobody was in any way confused about what 'this' referred to?
We are to preach the Gospel to unbelievers. The gospel is that God, in the fulness of time, fulfilled his messianic prophecies and ransomed Israel through the death of his son on the behalf of his people. But Israel consists not merely of those who are of the blood of Abraham. Israel is a great multitude taken from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. You, o unbeliever, are not excluded from Israel for your lack of circumcision, your lack of bondage under the law, your lack of observance of Hebrew rites. Good news! There is nothing barring you from having been saved efficaciously through the particular redemption Christ has already completed on the cross if you believe. The only thing that can separate you from God is a faithless and unbelieving heart.

And anyone who would make that faithless and unbelieving heart God's problem, instead of man's problem, based on specious extrabiblical philosophy, is speaking absurdities. The wicked are guilty by reason of their wickedness, not by reason of causal theories or by reason of potentiality or by reason of counterfactuals. Guilt is a property of evil, not of the genesis of evil.




So it would signify an additional, non-atoning universality within Christ's death, but it doesn't actually benefit the reprobates one iota?

Why are you bothering to bring it up?
I dislike repeating myself.

1) Redemption is not universal.
2) Atonement is redemption, therefore atonement is not universal.

3) You posit that this verse is universal.
4) You posit that this verse is atonement.

Assuming the first two theses, anything you do which proves your supposition in (3) disproves your supposition in (4).

Now if you want to have a proper dispute about points 1 and 2, nothing's stopping you. But you're honed in exclusively on point 3 in this thread. You believe that if you establish 3 as fact, you'll be disproving the Calvinist doctrine in points 1 and 2. But logically you'd just as easily be disproving point 4.

I don't accept point 4 because I accept points 1 and 2 and not 3, but if you convinced me to accept 3, I wouldn't be compelled to reject 1 or 2, which seems to be the goal of this thread.


You have baffled me again.
I don't like to pull the "I'm an expert" card out, but you have to be not baffled by what I said if you want us to believe you understand language thoroughly enough to be making the argument you're making.

Your argument doesn't follow if Paul's use of quotation and antecedent are even slightly other than what you say they are. You feel very strongly that Paul's language choice indicates General Atonement, to the point that you feel Paul would be misleading his audience if he wrote something that brings up these feelings within you but didn't mean to. But if you can't explain why this is the case from a technical, linguistic standpoint, I can easily write off these feelings as eisegesis. You are Arminian, therfore this is what you expect to find in a text, so when you read a text, you find what you expect, not what's there.

I will try to write the technical argument I'm making in the most introductory of terms. Human language has the capacity to refer to things not by their actual, individual name, but by features they have. We call these pronouns. In Indo-European languages, the features defining pronouns are person, number, and gender. In other language families, a pronoun can indicate the social status of the speaker. But there is a limit to what a pronoun can indicate.

For instance, the human brain probably would be unable to handle a pronoun with an antecedent of one first person, two second persons, one lower class and one upper class third person, and a female hamster. We could say all that in our sentence to be explicitly, but the pronoun-handling part of our brain probably just isn't advanced enough to understand this concept.

How do we know whether or not a proposed class of pronoun is biologically capable of being understood? One good indicator is the presence or absence of that pronoun type in any natural language. If no natural language has ever come up with a word with a specific, precise use, it's probably the case that such a use can't be conceived of pronominally. Humans are really creative when it comes to making up new linguistic forms. If we haven't done it in 6000 attempts, it's highly unlikely it can be done.

Second person clusivity is one of those things that has never been done. Your argument hinges upon second person clusivity. Paul is including himself, "I," and the Corinthians, "you," together in his "we." You're suggesting that that second person "you" consists of "you, the audience I'm writing to, the Corinthian Christians," and "other people who were with you at the time." That's second person clusivity - indication through a pronoun that both the second and third person are being implied. It's doubtful that this can be expressed. So the reason you're hearing "all the world" in "we" in I Cor 15 has to be your prior commitment to general redemption, and your expectation to hear salvific language used of all the world. It can't be due to Paul's word choice.
 
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Hammster

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Under Calvinism, Paul told men about the resurrection of Christ whilst knowing at the same time that Christ did not rise from the dead for some of them. That makes Paul a deceiver of men. Woefully so.

How so?
 
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Jack Terrence

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Where did Christ give him specifics?
That's not my problem. Paul was an apostle and a prophet. He said that the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28). The verb is indicative.

He didn't say that they might listen.
 
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Hammster

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That's not my problem. Paul was an apostle and a prophet. He said that the Gentiles will listen (Acts 28:28). The verb is indicative.

He didn't say that they might listen.

And you think Paul meant all of the Gentiles?
 
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Johnnz

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"I dislike repeating myself.

1) Redemption is not universal.
2) Atonement is redemption, therefore atonement is not universal.

3) You posit that this verse is universal.
4) You posit that this verse is atonement.

Assuming the first two theses, anything you do which proves your supposition in (3) disproves your supposition in (4)."

Atonement is a component of redemption but is not synonymous with it. The new life offered to us by Christ is expressed by several terms, each giving some insight into what Jesus has accomplished. In the NT we see these terms, all of which are facets of our new life - redemption, salvation, reconciliation, adoption, regeneration, life, abundant life as examples.

Repeating what I have posted previously, but which was quickly lost in the rapid evolution of this thread, Jesus dies for all sin ('the sins of the world' but each individual then chooses whether or not to live out of that reality.

John
NZ
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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"I dislike repeating myself.

1) Redemption is not universal.
2) Atonement is redemption, therefore atonement is not universal.

3) You posit that this verse is universal.
4) You posit that this verse is atonement.

Assuming the first two theses, anything you do which proves your supposition in (3) disproves your supposition in (4)."

Atonement is a component of redemption but is not synonymous with it. The new life offered to us by Christ is expressed by several terms, each giving some insight into what Jesus has accomplished. In the NT we see these terms, all of which are facets of our new life - redemption, salvation, reconciliation, adoption, regeneration, life, abundant life as examples.

Repeating what I have posted previously, but which was quickly lost in the rapid evolution of this thread, Jesus dies for all sin ('the sins of the world' but each individual then chooses whether or not to live out of that reality.

John
NZ

We [Reformed] don't split them all up. You want to give some of those things to the non-elect which were only meant for the elect. For example, atonement.
 
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Jack Terrence

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And you think Paul meant all of the Gentiles?
All the Gentiles to whom Paul preached listened. This was the case for Peter. In Acts 15 Peter said that the Lord chose that by his mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of God AND BELIEVE.

Now go back to the narrative of the occasion Peter was speaking about. Is anything said of a Gentile who did not believe on that occasion? On the contrary. It says that as Peter was speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon every Gentile that heard the word (Acts 10:44). It says that the Jews were astonished by it all.

May I suggest that you adopt a much higher view of their apostolic and prophetic authority than you now have?

This is why Paul could tell the Corinthians before they had come to faith in Christ that He died for their sins. It was given him to know that they were the people of God.
 
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Johnnz

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We [Reformed] don't split them all up. You want to give some of those things to the non-elect which were only meant for the elect. For example, atonement.

If the Reformed position is for tautology so be it. I will stick with a standard literary analysis approach, which accepts that authors chose and use words carefully and with specific meaning and intent,

John
NZ
 
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Epiphoskei

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"I dislike repeating myself.

1) Redemption is not universal.
2) Atonement is redemption, therefore atonement is not universal.

3) You posit that this verse is universal.
4) You posit that this verse is atonement.

Assuming the first two theses, anything you do which proves your supposition in (3) disproves your supposition in (4)."

Atonement is a component of redemption but is not synonymous with it. The new life offered to us by Christ is expressed by several terms, each giving some insight into what Jesus has accomplished. In the NT we see these terms, all of which are facets of our new life - redemption, salvation, reconciliation, adoption, regeneration, life, abundant life as examples.

Repeating what I have posted previously, but which was quickly lost in the rapid evolution of this thread, Jesus dies for all sin ('the sins of the world' but each individual then chooses whether or not to live out of that reality.

John
NZ

I'll agree it's a component and not the whole, but, as CkD noted, the reformed do not split redemption up into parts, nor do I think anyone could without descending into the absurd in short order.

It's one thing to say that atonement provides the potential for redemption but isn't redemption. It's quite another to say it's a part of redemption, and it's a part that everyone has. That would divide the world into the redeemed saints and the part-redeemed part-saints. There's a reason no one's coined the term "hemisaint" yet.
 
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Hammster

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All the Gentiles to whom Paul preached listened. This was the case for Peter. In Acts 15 Peter said that the Lord chose that by his mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of God AND BELIEVE.

Now go back to the narrative of the occasion Peter was speaking about. Is anything said of a Gentile who did not believe on that occasion? On the contrary. It says that as Peter was speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon every Gentile that heard the word (Acts 10:44). It says that the Jews were astonished by it all.

May I suggest that you adopt a much higher view of their apostolic and prophetic authority than you now have?

This is why Paul could tell the Corinthians before they had come to faith in Christ that He died for their sins. It was given him to know that they were the people of God.

As usual, your hyper-Calvinism stretches things beyond believability. The way you defend this is like watching FG2 defend his position.

smh
 
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janxharris

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Well, it's in your best interest to figure it out. Your theology demands that God treat everyone equally in regard to revealing the way of salvation to them, so how was it that the Amorites were to know about Christ?

What about people today who die never having heard of Jesus? How are they supposed to be saved?

Is it impossible for God to make Christ known to them? Yes or no?

Genesis 3:8-9
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

You are suggesting that this can never take between God and just any man?

Also Romans 2:14,15; Matthew 11:21-24. The point made there is obvious, so I don't know why you have to ask what the point is. You clearly just want to ignore these scriptures.
 
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janxharris

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Check out 2 Corinthians 5:19.
This may be of help:

2 Corinthians 5:
14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.​

Paul says that one died for all which repeats what he has said elsewhere and is a confirmation of the Arminian position. How you think that verse 19 explicitly defines 'world' as 'elect' I have no idea.

As far as kosmos is concerned, it clearly was employed by the Holy Spirit to communicate that the narrow bounds of the OT have been abolished. God’s revelation and salvific blessing were at that time largely restricted to one nation, his peculiar people, whereas the “world” was left in darkness.

I do not accept that God's salvific blessings were restricted to the Israelites. The Israelites were chosen by God to be the blood line through whom Christ would come. That, obviously, does not mean that all non-Israelites were excluded from salvation.

“You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2). Note also Ps 147:19–20; Jer 10:25. “But now” (Eph 2:13), the cross-work of Jesus has “universalized” God’s redemptive grace.

Amos 3
2“You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins.”​

Not sure why this is cited.

Psalm 147
19He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.​

Romans 2:
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)​

Jeremiah 10
25Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the peoples who do not call on your name. For they have devoured Jacob; they have devoured him completely and destroyed his homeland.​

Why is Jer. 10 significant?

Ephesians 2
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. The Church is composed of Jew and Gentile. God is calling to himself a people who were not his people: the Gentiles (Rom 9:24–26; 1 Pet 2:10). He is found by them who sought him not (Rom 10:20). Now, as opposed to then, repentance and remission of sins are to be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47). Disciples are to be made of all nations (Matt 28:19–20). The gospel is the power of God to all who believe, both to Jew and Gentile (Rom 1:16). God is pouring out his Spirit on all flesh (Acts 2:17). They who once were without Christ, strangers, aliens, and without God or hope, have now been drawn near by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:11–13). The radical nature of this glorious truth is witnessed in the Jewish response to Gentile salvation. According to Paul, they were “filled with envy” (Acts 13:42–50). The Jews, he tells us, “please not God, and are contrary to all men; forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved” (1 Thess 2:15–16). Yet salvation has come to the Gentiles “to provoke them to jealousy” (Rom 11:11; Acts 22:21–22). It required a heavenly vision to convince Peter (Acts 10–11). And note the response: “Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18). This truth is part of the mystery kept secret in ages past: “that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ by the gospel” (Eph 3:5–6).
The word kosmos, it would appear, was an especially appropriate term to utilize in order to express this idea that the saving grace of God had extended into every country, to all peoples, viewed not in terms of individualistic universality, an “all without exception,” but “all without distinction”—that is, without regard for ethnic or geographical criteria.

Surely nobody in their right mind would suggest that the man born a nano-second before Christ's work of salvation occurred, that such a man was without hope? Are you?

Ephesians 2:11-13 merely says that if Christ had not come then Gentiles would have no chance to be adopted into Israel. Christ's redemption does not apply only to those born after a certain moment in time.
 
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janxharris

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The irony of predestination vs free will is that there was a default, and there IS a default- they both exist in unison.

Just ask a Catholic :)
You all protestants split hairs because you all labor under legal fictions.

Would you elaborate a bit please?
Predestination is a fact and free will is a fact.
 
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SwordFall

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Would you elaborate a bit please?
Predestination is a fact and free will is a fact.

You answered your own question, but I'll expound.

Metaphysics is a difficult subject- protestants in general don't understand that free will and predestination go hand in hand; they are two sides of the same coin, teal and turquoise meshed: your free will is part of predestination.
 
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SwordFall

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Predestination is not a fact supported by Scripture. Calvin got his exegesis wrong.

John
NZ

I have a certain fascination with Calvin- he saw God as absolutely omnipotent, nothing escapes God.
And that's a healthy attitude, but he neglects free will and that is contrary to our very existence.
We are not here to be slaves, but to willingly serve God because He is righteous and worthy- He is the very crux, the Creator, of righteousness.
 
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