Are Modalists (Oneness Pentecostals) saved?

[Lion King]

Someone is not a Christian when their Christ is another Christ, as it is with the Modalists.

As to the rest, I still fail to see the relevance or what you're trying to get at.

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Romans 2:1-3


How can you stand here and judge other churches for the questionable doctrines they keep, when your assembly also hold doctrines contrary to the ones Christ taught?

Is that not hypocrisy?

 

[Frogster]

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Romans 2:1-3


How can you stand here and judge other churches for the questionable doctrines they keep, when your assembly also hold doctrines contrary to the ones Christ taught?

Is that not hypocrisy?

paul did...judgment big time...

1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed

 

[Knee V]

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Romans 2:1-3


How can you stand here and judge other churches for the questionable doctrines they keep, when your assembly also hold doctrines contrary to the ones Christ taught?

Is that not hypocrisy?

I understand that certain Orthodox positions do not agree with your personal interpretation of Scripture. I'm fine with that.

Should we accept just any Christ? Did Christ not ask, "But who do you say that I am?" Is the answer to that question not important? If someone's Christ is not the Christ that the church has known from the beginning, then they are part of just another religion in the world that has a figure that they call "Jesus".

Unless you're saying that it's fine to believe in just any ol' god and call it good...

 

[Rev Randy]

Interesting, especially coming from a person who belongs to a church which preaches this:

"The Eastern Orthodox church teaches that heaven and hell are being in God's presence which is being with God and seeing God, and that there no such place as where God is not, nor is hell taught in the East as separation from God. hell and heaven are being in God's presence, as this presence is punishment and paradise depending on the person's spiritual state in that presence. For one who hates God, to be in the presence of God eternally would be the gravest suffering." [Wikipedia]

And this is relevant to the OPs question in what context?
Without a doubt we teach that God is omnipresent and would not teach that His presence is outside of hell. That would be denying Him being omnipresent.
Yes we do view hell in such a manner. Not quite that simplified but it's pretty accurate.

 

[Frogster]

I understand that certain Orthodox positions do not agree with your personal interpretation of Scripture. I'm fine with that.

Should we accept just any Christ? Did Christ not ask, "But who do you say that I am?" Is the answer to that question not important? If someone's Christ is not the Christ that the church has known from the beginning, then they are part of just another religion in the world that has a figure that they call "Jesus".

Unless you're saying that it's fine to believe in just any ol' god and call it good...

good point about another Jesus.


2 cor 11: 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

 

[Stealth001]

I was a Oneness Pentecostal for nearly 22 years. Oneness Pentecostals believe the following:

That there is absolutely one God. He alone is the only divine being and is a single "person".

However, the Logos of God (mind, will, plan) which was in the very bosom of God's being from eternity past was made a flesh and blood human being... the man Jesus Christ. This flesh and blood human being was the very human tabernacle of God Almighty. Therefore He was both man... and God.

That being said, they believe that the Father is in Christ, and that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the glorified Christ (the Spirit of Christ). Therefore the "name" of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is the name of the one in whom these modes of God are manifest... Jesus. It is for this reason that they baptize in the name of Jesus Christ and not the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Oneness Pentecostals believe in the atonement, propitiation, justification, etc.

In Oneness Pentecostal soteriology they believe that when the Holy Spirit is guiding a soul to salvation that soul comes to faith, repents of sin, is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and is filled with the Holy Spirit. This brings justification, sanctification, and regeneration. Most believe that the "initial evidence" of Holy Spirit baptism is "speaking in tongues". However, many don't deny that the Holy Spirit can be active without the "evidence" as we know it. Thus, they don't deny the salvation of other Christians. Some are more fundamentalist and believe that unless one has spoken in tongues they have yet to receive the Holy Spirit.

Many Oneness Pentecostal organizations are very legalistic (no television, cut hair on women, women's pants, shorts on men, no short sleeves, no makeup, no jewelry, etc.). Their position is very similar to early Wesleyan Holiness believers. Other Oneness Pentecostals are more "charismatic" and don't focus on these legalistic externalities.

Oneness Pentecostals are divided on eschatology. One can find Oneness Pentecostals that are Preterist, Futurist, and Historicist in their eschatological leanings.

They are the largest proponents of the idea that Jesus IS in fact... God robed in human flesh. Where most Christians believe they see two divine persons... Oneness Pentecostals distinguish between the humanity of the man Jesus Christ and the divinity of the Father who dwells within Him and is manifest through Him. They are very suspicious of Trinitarian angles that would essentially make Jesus a co-equal "God" (second divine person) or a lesser being (Arianism and Unitarianism). Oneness Pentecostal simplicity finds the Trinity confusing and contradictory. It's simple in their minds... if you have more than one divine person... you have more than one God. They believe this departure from a more biblical and Judaic Christology is due to the infiltration of Pagan Roman beliefs in the early centuries of Christianity.

Personally... I've never known any group of Christians who were more "monotheist" yet refused to deny the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Rev Randy]

Someone is not a Christian when their Christ is another Christ, as it is with the Modalists.

As to the rest, I still fail to see the relevance or what you're trying to get at.

I love the wisdom you used not making some blanket statement that they are damned. I'm not understanding the concept some have of being on earth and already being fully saved. I'm a "will be saved' thinker as my journey is not yet complete. Salvation is a continual process here on earth. A work unfinished that is realized at the judgement.
So are those holding to the doctrine taught by Oneness Pentecostals saved? Not yet. Is their teaching in err? Yes. Does this mean they are damned? You'll have to ask God.

 

[Lion King]

I understand that certain Orthodox positions do not agree with your personal interpretation of Scripture. I'm fine with that.

Should we accept just any Christ? Did Christ not ask, "But who do you say that I am?" Is the answer to that question not important? If someone's Christ is not the Christ that the church has known from the beginning, then they are part of just another religion in the world that has a figure that they call "Jesus".

Unless you're saying that it's fine to believe in just any ol' god and call it good...

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

 

[Stealth001]

Primary texts used by Oneness Pentecostals to emphasize that the man Jesus Christ was also God are as follows:

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

John 17:10
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (KJV)

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (KJV) (Implying that Christ's blood is God's own blood.)


​

Texts Oneness Pentecostals use to promote what they call the "Apostolic Gospel" are believed to represent the earliest message ever taught by the church, before counsels, debates, and establish Romanized orthodoxy are as follows:

(Matthew 28:19 KJV)
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Oneness Pentecostals emphasize the singular use of the term "name" here to indicate that there is a single name in which the Father, Son, and Spirit are revealed: Jesus)


(Mark 16:16-17 KJV)
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

(John 3:5 KJV)
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 10:44-48 KJV)
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Acts 22:16 KJV)
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Most Oneness Pentecostals believe that this indicates that the name of the Lord, Jesus, must be orally invoked at baptism)

(Romans 6:3-4 KJV)
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV)
(13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Galatians 3:27 KJV)
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

(Colossians 2:12 KJV)
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

(1 Peter 3:21 KJV)
(21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

​

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I ask this because I see some sincere believers like bishop TD jakes who has a great love for God. Although he believes the Trinity doctrine now, he used to believe in the doctrine that God isnt 3 separate persons but one Person who manifests himself in 3 different ways.

Would they still be saved even though they misinterpret the God Head?

i used to regularily visit a oneness pentecostal congregation for a time . i think their misunderstanding of the godhead is on the same level of those who preach trinity but don't understand it either .

the main focus is on Jesus

if they're not saved . i'd imagine a lot of evangelicals wouldn't be as well .

 

[Stealth001]

Oneness Pentecostals typically note that any soteriological reference in the Epistles is a reference in a letter to an already established church that obeyed Acts 2:38. Therefore they reject attempts such as using verses from Romans to counter Acts 2:38. Their position is that the salvation by faith described in the letter to the churches in Rome wouldn't be possible had they not obeyed the Acts 2:38 message (repentance, baptism, Spirit infilling).

 

[Stealth001]

Another text used by Oneness Pentecostals that I missed can be found in Colossians:

Colossians 2:8-9
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (KJV)

​

Thus they believe that "all the fullness" of divine Godhead dwells in the man Jesus Christ bodily. He is therefore both man and God. Not just a man. Not a third of God. Not a divine person or being who is distinct from the Father. Not a lesser being. But a man who is also God Almighty in the most basic and truest sense. The Son and the Father... are one.

 

[Knee V]

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

By pointing out that another Christ is not Christ?

 

[Stealth001]

By pointing out that another Christ is not Christ?

Is the Oneness position "another Christ"... or is it a different perspective of the very same Jesus that we're all talking about? They do not deny the absolute divinity of Jesus. In fact, they are it's greatest proponents.

 

[Rev Randy]

Primary texts used by Oneness Pentecostals to emphasize that the man Jesus Christ was also God are as follows:

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

John 17:10
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (KJV)

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (KJV) (Implying that Christ's blood is God's own blood.)


​

Texts Oneness Pentecostals use to promote what they call the "Apostolic Gospel" are believed to represent the earliest message ever taught by the church, before counsels, debates, and establish Romanized orthodoxy are as follows:

(Matthew 28:19 KJV)
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Oneness Pentecostals emphasize the singular use of the term "name" here to indicate that there is a single name in which the Father, Son, and Spirit are revealed: Jesus)


(Mark 16:16-17 KJV)
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

(John 3:5 KJV)
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Acts 2:38-41 KJV)
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

(Acts 8:14-17 KJV)
(14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (17) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 10:44-48 KJV)
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(Acts 22:16 KJV)
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Most Oneness Pentecostals believe that this indicates that the name of the Lord, Jesus, must be orally invoked at baptism)

(Romans 6:3-4 KJV)
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV)
(13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Galatians 3:27 KJV)
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

(Colossians 2:12 KJV)
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

(1 Peter 3:21 KJV)
(21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

​

So using some scripture makes it right? I would conclude from this that such an one could not profess the Nicene Creed.

 

[Rev Randy]

Is the Oneness position "another Christ"... or is it a different perspective of the very same Jesus that we're all talking about?

According to the Creed , a different Christ. According to CF's definition; Non-Christian.

 

[Lion King]

By pointing out that another Christ is not Christ?

Before attempting to point out the Oneness Pentecostal for their error, correct your church's errors first.

 

[Rev Randy]

Before attempting to point out the Oneness Pentecostal for their error, correct your church's errors first.

Is that what you're doing? Or is this a pot kettle thing?
I'd say he was responding to a question asked by the OP which did not ask him about any other errors.

 

[Stealth001]

So using some scripture makes it right? I would conclude from this that such an one could not profess the Nicene Creed.

True. But are the creeds Scripture???

Most of us today wouldn’t agree with all the opinions of those who drafted the creeds.

Besides, Oneness theology doesn’t violate anything in the Apostle’s Creed. So, there is a creed that Oneness Pentecostals can accept.

 

[Stealth001]

Also, many of the classical creeds don't entirely agree. And many sincere Christians interpret the various creeds differently. By CF's definitions, I can agree that the position is heretical. However, is it a "damnable heresy" or simply a disagreement with regards to how Jesus is indeed God?