Islam:Peaceful and Tolerant?

[Danny777]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

 

[Arthra]

I'm unsure I would characterize modern states "Christian"... as they are ruled more by secular governments.

Historically Jews and Christians were permitted to practice their religion in Muslim lands as long as they paid the "jizya" ... for instance in Spain before the Reconquista... afterwards Muslism and Jews had to leave Spain.

During the Islamic administration, Christians and Jews were allowed to retain their religions by paying a tax (jizya). Penalty for not paying it was imprisonment. During the time of the Almoravids and especially the Almohads some were treated badly, in contrast to the policies of the earlier Umayyad Caliphs and later Emirs.[citation needed]

The new Christian hierarchy demanded heavy taxes from non-Christians and gave them rights, such as in the Treaty of Granada (1491) only for Moors in recently Islamic Granada. It expelled the Jews. In 1492 the Alhambra decree under Archbishop Hernando de Talavera dismissed the Treaty of Granada and now the Muslim population of Granada was forced to convert or be expelled. In 1502, Queen Isabella I declared conversion to Catholicism compulsory within the Kingdom of Castile. King Charles V did the same to Moors in the Kingdom of Aragon in 1526, forcing conversions of its Muslim population during the Revolt of the Germanies.[14] Despite the monarchs' wishes, many local officials took advantage of the situation to seize property.

Reconquista - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Danny777]

I'm unsure I would characterize modern states "Christian"... as they are ruled more by secular governments.

Historically Jews and Christians were permitted to practice their religion in Muslim lands as long as they paid the "jizya" ... for instance in Spain before the Reconquista... afterwards Muslism and Jews had to leave Spain.

During the Islamic administration, Christians and Jews were allowed to retain their religions by paying a tax (jizya). Penalty for not paying it was imprisonment. During the time of the Almoravids and especially the Almohads some were treated badly, in contrast to the policies of the earlier Umayyad Caliphs and later Emirs.[citation needed]

The new Christian hierarchy demanded heavy taxes from non-Christians and gave them rights, such as in the Treaty of Granada (1491) only for Moors in recently Islamic Granada. It expelled the Jews. In 1492 the Alhambra decree under Archbishop Hernando de Talavera dismissed the Treaty of Granada and now the Muslim population of Granada was forced to convert or be expelled. In 1502, Queen Isabella I declared conversion to Catholicism compulsory within the Kingdom of Castile. King Charles V did the same to Moors in the Kingdom of Aragon in 1526, forcing conversions of its Muslim population during the Revolt of the Germanies.[14] Despite the monarchs' wishes, many local officials took advantage of the situation to seize property.

Reconquista - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fair point re. Western nations being "Christian" but they are peaceful and tolerant towards Islam being practised. Is the same peace and tolerance displayed towards Christian's and Jews in any Islamic country? I am really interested in situation in world today as opposed to past history.

 

[sunrise0]

I like to remind everyone that Chritianity started in Palestine.
the main churches are still there. the majority of Palestinians were Christian in the first few centuries after the advent of Prophet Muhammad.
no one can prove muslims oppressed Christians, to the contrary the crusades were barbaric and merciless.
Arab Christians fought them side by side with the Muslims

the same almost applies to the Arab Jews.
when Christians committed the most brutal treatment to Muslims in Spain, Jews were protected by Muslims and immigrated with them

 

[Danny777]

I like to remind everyone that Chritianity started in Palestine.
the main churches are still there. the majority of Palestinians were Christian in the first few centuries after the advent of Prophet Muhammad.
no one can prove muslims oppressed Christians, to the contrary the crusades were barbaric and merciless.
Arab Christians fought them side by side with the Muslims

the same almost applies to the Arab Jews.
when Christians committed the most brutal treatment to Muslims in Spain, Jews were protected by Muslims and immigrated with them

The violent history of the church cannot be denied but this was completely CONTRARY to the teachings of Christ. There is plenty of evidence the Muslims oppress Christian today and those that do this use the teachings of Muhammad to justify this. No Christian can point to the teachings of Jesus Christ to justify violence oppression of anyone - any Christian participating in this is NOT following the teachings of Christ.

You have not answered my question though - What Islamic countries offer the same peace and tolerance to Jews and Christians to practice their religion that Muslims benefit from in the West? If you cannot answer the question, it cannot be argued that Islam is peaceful and tolerant...

 

[Arthra]

You might check these countries..

I think Jordan makes an effort to be tolerant:

Religious tolerance, dialogue among Jordan’s most basic values — Judeh | The Jordan Times

Italy, Jordan push religious tolerance initiative

Dubai claims to have freedom of religion:

Top rights ranking makes UAE proud - Khaleej Times

You can probably find problems that Muslims have in the US...

US mosque burnt to ground in an arson attack

Although Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews are tolerated in Iran ... Baha'is remain outlawed..and have few if any civil rights there.

There was an International Religious Freedom Report on various countries such as Jordan by the US State Dept. at

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148826.htm

and Turkey:

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2012/eur/208376.htm

So while there is probably progress toward religious freedom in some countries it's not just a black and white issue...probably shades of grey..

I think it's really unfair though to label all countries that happen to have predominant Muslim populations as being "not peaceful" or intolerant... It's more complicated than that and some progress is being made..

 

[football5680]

no one can prove muslims oppressed Christians,

Really? Nobody can prove it as long as you throw out all the evidence that proves they oppressed Christians. Thousands of churches were destroyed and Christians were not allowed to build any new ones. There were thousands of churches and only a few were spared. Christians and Jews were 2nd class citizens who always lived under subjugation just like the Quran commands.

to the contrary the crusades were barbaric and merciless.
Arab Christians fought them side by side with the Muslims

The Ottoman Empire started everything and they were constantly attacking Christian nations. Both sides displayed barbaric tendencies but that is what happens in a war. The Muslims started everything because they were always at war ever since the creation of Islam. The Islamic empire was powerful because they were always at war with other people and when they took them over they would gain a lot of revenue that allowed them to continue to wage wars. Once they could no longer wage wars against other nations to bring them in to the empire and extract their wealth the fell apart.

The wars were mostly Christians VS Muslims but at times Christians fought alongside Muslims and Muslims fought alongside Christians for political reasons. At other times it was simply Christian VS Christian and Muslim VS Muslim. The different sects within Christianity and Islam often saw their counterpart as bigger threats than somebody from another religion and alliances were forged based upon this.

when Christians committed the most brutal treatment to Muslims in Spain, Jews were protected by Muslims and immigrated with them

Muslims had been subjugating Christians in Spain for hundreds years. Both the Jews and Muslims were kicked out when Christians came back into power because they were all subversive and it would have been dangerous to have them there. Jews didn't have the choice whether they would stay or not because they were subversive and hated Christianity more than Islam. The Jews had money so the Muslims liked them for that. If they were under Muslim control then they would be a big source of revenue.

 

[Arthra]

Football wrote:

"Both the Jews and Muslims were kicked out when Christians came back into power because they were all subversive and it would have been dangerous to have them there. Jews didn't have the choice whether they would stay or not because they were subversive and hated Christianity more than Islam. The Jews had money so the Muslims liked them for that. If they were under Muslim control then they would be a big source of revenue."

...................................................

Lot of stereotypes in there "football"....

You sound like you could've instituted some of the oppression had you lived in those times...

The Moorish Kingdom of Granada continued for three more centuries in southern Iberia. On January 2, 1492, the leader of the last Muslim stronghold in Granada surrendered to armies of a recently united Christian Spain (after the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile, the Catholic Monarchs). They forced the remaining Jews to leave Spain, convert to Roman Catholic Christianity or be killed for not doing so. To exert social and religious control, in 1480, Isabella and Ferdinand agreed to allow the Inquisition in Spain. Granada's Muslim population rebelled in 1499. The revolt lasted until early 1501, giving the Castilian authorities an excuse to void the terms of the Treaty of Granada (1491). In 1501 Castilian authorities delivered an ultimatum to Granada's Muslims: they could either convert to Christianity or be expelled.

The Inquisition was aimed mostly at Jews and Muslims who had overtly converted to Christianity but were thought to be practicing their faiths secretly. They were respectively called marranos and moriscos. However, in 1567 King Philip II directed Moriscos to give up their Arabic names and traditional dress, and prohibited the use of the Arabic language. In reaction, there was a Morisco uprising in the Alpujarras from 1568 to 1571. In the years from 1609 to 1614, the government expelled Moriscos. The historian Henri Lapeyre estimated that this affected 300,000 out of an estimated total of 8 million inhabitants.[19]


Moors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-19

 

[football5680]

Lot of stereotypes in there "football".

It's not a stereotype, it was the truth. The Jews and Muslims were both subversive and would have tried to overthrow the Christian leaders. Muslims love war and would have simply attempted to attack again and the Muslims and Jews would have been waiting to support them once again.

You sound like you could've instituted some of the oppression had you lived in those times...

Spain did what they had to because Muslims are blood thirsty warmongers who subjugate Christians every chance they get. That was 500 years ago and they are no longer like that. But Muslims today still subjugate Christians and kill them. Coptic Christians are being killed in Egypt, Syrian Rebel terrorists massacre entire towns of Christians and destroy churches, Christians are regularly killed in Pakistan, etc....

 

[Strathos]

Both sides have oppressed and persecuted each other throughout history. However that does not mean it's impossible for them to ever get along.

 

[Danny777]

Both sides have oppressed and persecuted each other throughout history. However that does not mean it's impossible for them to ever get along.

Doesn't this depend on the conduct taught by each religion? It is impossible for Christian's to fight other groups AND be consistent with the teachings of Christ. Therefore, by definition, Christianity is a peaceful and tolerant "religion" even if some followers are do not act in this way as they would be acting in a way NOT prescribed by their religion. It seems to me that the teachings of Islam (starting with Muhammad) encourage, if not demand, intolerance and non-peaceful activity at times. How this is it possible for Muslims to be peaceful and tolerant at all times if their religion does not teach followers to do so? Surely this is most evident in the conduct of Islamic nations towards their non-Muslim citizens, provided these nations are following the teachings of Muhammad?

This is why I am interested to find an Islamic country that does promote tolerance to Christians and Jews to freely practice their faith - maybe Jordan is the closest to this?

 

[kenzo0]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

oh my... you're right!!

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

I doubt I can.
let's see...
1) there are Islam and Christianity, Muslims and Christians.. definetly no peace and tolerant..
give you one example from thousands:
Bangladeshi Christians Told to Close Church, Convert to Islam - Bangladesh - Zimbio

2) there are Islam and Buddha, Muslims and Buddhist... also no peace and tolerant
give you one:
Buddhist-Muslim violence spreads in Myanmar

3) there are Islam and Hindu...still, no peace and tolerant
give you one:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/111771/new-hindu-muslim-clashes-erupt-in-indian-kashmir/

4) there are Islam and Islam, Muslims and Muslims... NO peace and tolerant too
too many, Iran, Irak, Pakistan, etc.. you can find yourself how Muslims kills each other.


Is there something wrong with Christianity?
Is there something wrong with Buddha?
Is there something wrong with Hindu?
OR is there something wrong with the religion of peace and tolerant?
where they are small and weak, just like Muhammad revealed the Mekkan verses..
but when they big and strong, just like Muhammad revealed the Median verses..
oh.. of course, you will find others muslims says that "IT WAS NOT MUSLIM/ISLAM, because Islam is peace and tolerant"..
I'd like you to watch this,
Kenya Mall Killers Prayed During Massacre: Westgate terrorists paused to perform Muslim prayers - YouTube

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

NO, its not fair...
Muslims in small number in kufar country will always feel that the kufar country's citizen treat them unfair..
how many rape cases in England? not process the reports because won't seen as racist?
UK officials ignored Muslim grooming rape gangs because they didn't want to be seen as racist - YouTube

not only in England, Aussie too I would like you to show how peace and tolerant they were:
Anti US Protests By Muslims Turns Violent In Sydney Streets of Australia - YouTube

after gave you a lot of scary news and video, I will give you another video that would cooling you down:
Brand New Leather Jacket - YouTube

by the way, I believe that Islam will grow fast, and in the end they will rule the world. So sad to say, but that's what Bible said about this religion..

last but not least,
God bless

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

It is good that you set "Christian" in parentheses, because Christianity has resisted the establishment of liberal, pluralistic democracies every step of the way, so comparing these two religions on account of statecraft does not make much sense.

When the Christian influence upon the state was at its peak, dissenters (including Christians with differing theological viewpoints) mere mercilessly hunted down and killed in various gruesome ways.

And even today, conservative Christians are violently opposed to other religions, and would go much further in keeping them in check if the law allowed for it.

In short, I'd say it's a draw at best. Christianity only "wins" because its influence upon the political sphere has dwindled considerably, whereas Islamic barbarism is still widely embraced in many countries.

 

[ianb321red]

by the way, I believe that Islam will grow fast, and in the end they will rule the world. So sad to say, but that's what Bible said about this religion..

last but not least,
God bless

Where in the bible does it say that?

 

[ianb321red]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

How do we define an Islamic country?
Do we mean one that is governed by Sharia or at least has an application of Sharia at some level?

 

[ianb321red]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

You could argue that dhimmi status equates to a form of tolerance, but not equality..

Dhimmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kenzo0]

Where in the bible does it say that?

Bible never point its finger to certain object.
but it did give you its rough concept about what happen in the past, now, and in the future.
you can read in Revelation, and some prophecies in the Bible, I hope I can post about it in the future.

 

[ianb321red]

Bible never point its finger to certain object.
but it did give you its rough concept about what happen in the past, now, and in the future.
you can read in Revelation, and some prophecies in the Bible, I hope I can post about it in the future.

I realise that but you specifically mentioned that "I believe that Islam will grow fast, and in the end they will rule the world. .....that's what Bible said about this religion.."

There are references to false prophets and false religions - but this could just as easily refer to Catholicism as it could Islam...... or both??

 

[kenzo0]

I realise that but you specifically mentioned that "I believe that Islam will grow fast, and in the end they will rule the world. .....that's what Bible said about this religion.."

There are references to false prophets and false religions - but this could just as easily refer to Catholicism as it could Islam...... or both??

Yes it could be.
If Catholicism.. Maybe it's like what Jesus said about weeds grow among wheat.
If Islam.. It's just perfectly match with the Dragon and the Beast in the Revelation

 

[Zoness]

Muslims naturally insist that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

Can anyone think of an Islamic country that gives it's citizens the same freedom and opportunity to practice Judaism and Christianity as Muslims enjoy in Western "Christian" nations?

Is this a fair test of whether a religion is peaceful and tolerant?

Generally speaking you are right, most Islamic nations aren't nearly as open as Western nations. Additionally, many Muslim populations live in abject poverty and have low education...I'm sure that's a much stronger correlation for poor behavior than the religion. If you could afford to educate the Muslim world to the standards of the Western world you'd find a lot less strict, literal adherence to their religion.

Christianity is taking entirely too much credit if it assumes that Western nations are enlightened because of it. Western nations are tolerant because of enlightenment principles, humanism, rational and empirical thought and observation. Religions the world over aren't really known for these things.

I do think there are certain cultural aspects of Europeans that have given them the advantage (unfair or otherwise) over the rest of the world during the last few centuries but I don't really see how Christianity fits into that. The Enlightenment may as well have happened if Islam dominated Europe and Christianity was the desert religion. As it stands, that wasn't the case.

To boil this all down the influences in Muslim countries are primarily prosperity oriented. A lack of wealth tends to mean stronger religious commitment. That same lack of wealth results in less education and again, a higher likeliness to do as culture demands and integrate into the cultural and religious demands of X.