The historicity of Adam

ArmyMatt

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If we can't trust our observational and problem solving skills, then I would merely alter the question and ask "Why has God created us in such a way that, all things considered, our ability to make accurate observations and theories that explain the world are actually a load of bunk?" It sounds like serious subjectivism.

Take sediment layers, for instance. Lets say scientists can observe that a new sediment layer forms every 10 years. After a little digging they count 2500 sediment layers and estimate the first was formed approx. 25,000 years ago. Is that really scientists being weak-minded, or is it just the explanation that sounds more probable than "oh, God just wants you to think things work this way but they don't. P.s, he isn't going to help you figure out how it really happened either."

There seems to be this perception on here that scientists go about their research and experiments as sloppily as 4th graders. That may be the case with some, and they may try to apply their discipline's explanatory power too far, but within their area of expertise they know what they are doing, and they are offering explanations far superior to those offered by the YEC-ers.

well, I would say that for one, our vision, our mind, and our will are all fallen, so we don't see things as they should be, because NOTHING in creation is as it should be.

and no one is saying that scientists are sloppy, but they base their observations (to borrow from the Prodigal son), on looking ONLY at how the pig pen works. so they only look to those eyes when looking at the universe. what if the Father's House was once where the pig pen is now, clean and warm and everything?

well, then the problem is not how the scientists do their experimentation, nor is it that they are being illogical. their starting point, being different, has differing consequences. so if the pig pen was always there, the way that it was being the pig pen, then only looking at the pig pen makes perfect sense. if, however, that part of the Father's House became the pig pen, then they are starting with the wrong assumptions.
 
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jckstraw72

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investigating the past is dependent upon death - you need remains from the past which are there because of the corruption and death of the fallen world. St. John of Kronstadt points to the ridiculousness of scientists trying to know the mind of God through the lifeless layers of the earth and the dead remains therein. Science looks to death, while the Saint investigates creation through Life. St. Isaac of Syria tells us that one of the visions of the Saint is the vision of the creation of the world. As has been pointed out, in our own times this was experienced at least by Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi, and probably by others we have not heard about. This is how Moses wrote Genesis - he was granted a vision, not simply words. This is infinitely superior.
 
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AndrewEOC

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I don't think the idea is that could could not have done things to look as if they was in fact a much longer history of the universe than there really was. It's not trying to say he had to be scientific.

The suggestion truthsayer is thinking of, which is sometimes made by some creationists, is that the world is only 6000 or whatever years old, but was created ready-made with evidence of an older history. So the day God finished the Earth, it had a whole fossil record already laid down for a history that never happened, it had light which looked like it had originated in the universe millions of years ago showing things that never really happened at all....

It is a very weird idea that God would do that. What could be his purpose? If he did it, does he mean for us to believe evidence he created for things that never happened? Are we right then to believe it, or are we meant to think he put it there to trick us? If so, might there be other things he did to trick us?

Indeed. It would make the physical universe no less than an illusion, which is not what the Church has always taught.

But I really, really have to go now and probably won't be back in the forseeable future. I will end my participation here by saying that, for me, what science has revealed about the physical nature and history of the universe in no way demeans the Divine Truth taught by the Church and embodied in the Creed. My wonder at God's creation is only increased by learning about evolution or the transformation of the universe over billions of years that miraculously resulted in our existence. I do not view science as uncovering anything that has relevance independent of our beliefs as Christians and stand in awe at how God made us from the primordial dust, whether by evolution or by some process that will be discovered and disprove evolutionary theory in the future (extremely unlikely though that is at this point).
 
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rusmeister

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Indeed. It would make the physical universe no less than an illusion, which is not what the Church has always taught.

But I really, really have to go now and probably won't be back in the forseeable future. I will end my participation here by saying that, for me, what science has revealed about the physical nature and history of the universe in no way demeans the Divine Truth taught by the Church and embodied in the Creed. My wonder at God's creation is only increased by learning about evolution or the transformation of the universe over billions of years that miraculously resulted in our existence. I do not view science as uncovering anything that has relevance independent of our beliefs as Christians and stand in awe at how God made us from the primordial dust, whether by evolution or by some process that will be discovered and disprove evolutionary theory in the future (extremely unlikely though that is at this point).

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