How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Lion King]

Lust is actually an overwhelming disordered desire for something. Many people today lust after money, and electronic gadgets.

So how is having strong sexual desires for your own wife/husband a sin?

How is having strong desires for an xbox a sin?

 

[Rev Randy]

How does a fantasy equal idealizing and emphasizing something that isn't real? Ever play pretend as a kid? Usually you do it just for fun and once the moment is over, you know that it's over.

That said I do agree that lust isn't ok, even in marriage, but i don't think that fantasizing about one's spouse means they'll end up lusting after them.

Now why would one fantasize about one's spouse? If you mean desire her, I understand but that isn't fantasy. Fantasizing is pretending she's not your wife but one of another role. Do we not understand the word fantasy? synonyms: imagination, fancy, invention, make-believe;
I really doubt God is smiling when we pretend our bride is the young cute Baby sitter.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm not defending apparitions of Mary. I'm trying to discern the truth about them. This thread has become "the RCC is evil and apparitions are a hoax or demonic". The two other largest and ancient faiths also claim apparitions, and also believes as the RCC believes. I'm trying to find a logical reason why apparitions should be considered a hoax or demonic, when the most ancient churches, from in and around the holy land, all believe the same thing. Why is a few hundred years old group of Christians that is splintered into tens of thousands of denominations right. Why is American Protestantism right but the ancient faiths from in and around the holy land wrong. George Washington isn't in the Bible but he is (was) real. The Bible itself claims not everything is in the Bible.

Mike,

You can believe or not as you wish. Same for any Catholic miracle. You don't have to believe that the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial cloth of Jesus, that there's a Church in Rome that has the actual stairs Christ climbed to Golgotha, the various places that have pieces of the True Cross, or Marian apparitions. I believe they exist for a reason-to show that God continues to work in this world. Many today believe that God has abandoned our planet or the universe. Some believe that he started it and just watches it as it works, without interference. Does the Miracle of Lanciano prove that the Eucharist is what the Church says it is? Not definitively. There's a saying that "For those who believe it, nothing will shake their belief, for those who don't nothing will prove it to them." OR something like that.

It is, and never will be, dogma to believe any of the miracles of the last 2000 years. I believe that each breath of each person is a miracle, and since I believe that, miracles happen every day. They're not always manifest in extraordinary things.

 

[Lion King]

How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O prince’s daughter!
The curves of your thighs are like jewels,
The work of the hands of a skillful workman.
2 Your navel is a rounded goblet;
It lacks no blended beverage.
Your waist is a heap of wheat
Set about with lilies.
3 Your two breasts are like two fawns,
Twins of a gazelle.
4 Your neck is like an ivory tower,
Your eyes like the pools in Heshbon
By the gate of Bath Rabbim.
Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon
Which looks toward Damascus.

5 Your head crowns you like Mount Carmel,
And the hair of your head is like purple;
A king is held captive by your tresses.
6 How fair and how pleasant you are,
O love, with your delights!
7 This stature of yours is like a palm tree,
And your breasts like its clusters.
8 I said, “I will go up to the palm tree,
I will take hold of its branches.”
Let now your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
The fragrance of your breath like apples,
9 And the roof of your mouth like the best wine. - Song of Solomon 7:1-9

For those who say lusting after your own spouses is a sin, ever read songs of Solomon?

 

[Rev Randy]

Mike,

You can believe or not as you wish. Same for any Catholic miracle. You don't have to believe that the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial cloth of Jesus, that there's a Church in Rome that has the actual stairs Christ climbed to Golgotha, the various places that have pieces of the True Cross, or Marian apparitions. I believe they exist for a reason-to show that God continues to work in this world. Many today believe that God has abandoned our planet or the universe. Some believe that he started it and just watches it as it works, without interference. Does the Miracle of Lanciano prove that the Eucharist is what the Church says it is? Not definitively. There's a saying that "For those who believe it, nothing will shake their belief, for those who don't nothing will prove it to them." OR something like that.

It is, and never will be, dogma to believe any of the miracles of the last 2000 years. I believe that each breath of each person is a miracle, and since I believe that, miracles happen every day. They're not always manifest in extraordinary things.

I'm so glad you posted that. Some seem to think once something is sanctioned by the Church that it equates with Dogma thereby one must believe or face excommunication.

 

[Root of Jesse]

[/indent]
Call what pro choice?


The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.…

Mary was disobedient and therefore a sinner.


That's not true. He demands no such thing.
The marriage bed is undefiled. He didn't have
to make it so pleasurable, think about it.
You really thought that God made sex so
enjoyable and then put the brakes on?


This makes no sense in light of the whole of Scripture.

BTW...I never mentioned contraception.
I have 9 kids, most of my relatives are RCC and
have an average of 2.5 kids roughly

Really? You think "fulfill his duty to his wife" means only sex? Wow!

God made alcohol consumption pleasureable, does that mean we should get drunk every night? God wants us to be disciplined. Meaning that we should control our selves. In every way-gluttony, drunkardness, and lust are all sins, regardless of the time and place. Sex with your spouse is not supposed to be lust-ridden-that objectifies the other person, reduces them to the sum of their body parts.
Good for you, I'm happy that you see it. Most don't-Catholic and Protestant.

 

[Stryder06]

Now why would one fantasize about one's spouse? If you mean desire her, I understand but that isn't fantasy. Fantasizing is pretending she's not your wife but one of another role. Do we not understand the word fantasy? synonyms: imagination, fancy, invention, make-believe;
I really doubt God is smiling when we pretend our bride is the young cute Baby sitter.

That sounds more like "role-playing" to me, but I'm getting the feeling this is out of bounds for this thread

 

[Rev Randy]

...apparitions, such as Fatima. Eucharistic bleeding miracles, that are confirmed with science? I also recently read in OBOB about a certain saint, that on the celebration of his feast day, every single year, a vial of his blood liquifies before the congregation; the one time it didn't liquify, in 1980, there was an earthquake that killed a lot of people in the region in which this miracle takes place.

Then there's also a bleeding Eucharist miracle that was scientifically tested. The Eucharist fell to the floor, where it began to bleed. Testing was positive for a damaged human heart...

Just curious how non-Catholics reconcile these things. And of course, Mary's wish for Russia to convert with her apparition at Fatima apparently came to pass with the Russian Orthodox Church.

If they be genuine miracles no one could explain them properly as it would be like explaining God.
If they be man made fabrication( or even satanic), likewise I would not venture to explain the mind of a liar. That's too complicated.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where was Mary asked to do any of that? She wasn't asked. She was told. This was all God's plan as prophesied.

Then yer "Fiat" meant nothing?

Unsurprisingly, your tradition is wrong. You still haven't explained Matt 1:25 to me.

Oh, "until". The evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth.

You're right.

 

[Stryder06]

Then yer "Fiat" meant nothing?

I'm sorry but you've lost me here.

Oh, "until". The evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth.

This doesn't make any sense. We have scripture that says the child Mary conceived was of the Holy Spirit. After that it says that Joseph did not know her until she gave birth to Him. Why say that he didn't know her until after the birth? Why not just say "Joseph did not know her"? Why call Jesus her firstborn if He was her only born? I mean how many definitions does the word until have?

And you know, I'll just throw this out there, but it's funny that for this verse you're appealing to the Greek definition of "until" but when it comes to the "rock" argument you look to the Aramaic definition.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Isn't that what you do? Accept them as true because your church has "validated" them?

No, we're not required to believe them.

Because they are.

How would you know?

I'll speak for myself and say that this has nothing to do with it being "too catholic". I consider these visions to be just as demonic as the visions that psychics see. One only need investigate the scriptures to see this as true.

Yeah, and the Pharisees said that Jesus drove out demons in the name of Beelzebul, too...

And the sad part is that you can only accept these as being true based on the word of your church. Compare the visions and the message to scripture, and it'll become clear that it isn't from God.

As far as you want. They are held up as examples. Many of them have been independently shown, at the very least, to have no known natural cause.
The Shroud of Turin, for example...much of the work done to (dis)prove the authenticity of the Shroud has been done by people who were skeptical at best. But the evidence shows that it is what it is represented to be-the burial cloth of a first century Palestinian man who had been crucified, beaten to a pulp, and had numerous lacerations to his head. That the cloth still exists today is miraculous of itself-linen deteriorates.
Then there's the Holy Face of Manopello, which is thought to be the veil of Mary Magdalene, which she placed over the face, on top of the Shroud, which holds an image exactly the same dimensions as the face in the Shroud, with hair and beard exactly the same as the Shroud, imbedded on a cloth which has not been produced since the first century. While not as much has been done to test this cloth, the facts that are known of it are consistent with the face on the Shroud of Turin. Oh, I know...you'll say it was painted...prove it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What does that even mean?

That it's make-believe. Not real. I don't idealize my wife. I love her as she is. No ribbons or bows, no makeup, none of it. Just the way she is. Eyes wide open, thanks.

For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1 Corinthians 7:7-9

Now your turn. Could you show me where God forbid lusting after your own wife/husband?

What Does the Bible Say About Lust?

Please show me where the exception for your spouse exists?

 

[Stryder06]

No, we're not required to believe them.
How would you know?

I was asking personally. Do you not believe in the Fatima appearance?

Yeah, and the Pharisees said that Jesus drove out demons in the name of Beelzebul, too...

That they did. But as already stated, it can be shown that these miracles aren't of God.

As far as you want. They are held up as examples. Many of them have been independently shown, at the very least, to have no known natural cause.

I can agree with that.

The Shroud of Turin, for example...much of the work done to (dis)prove the authenticity of the Shroud has been done by people who were skeptical at best. But the evidence shows that it is what it is represented to be-the burial cloth of a first century Palestinian man who had been crucified, beaten to a pulp, and had numerous lacerations to his head. That the cloth still exists today is miraculous of itself-linen deteriorates.
Then there's the Holy Face of Manopello, which is thought to be the veil of Mary Magdalene, which she placed over the face, on top of the Shroud, which holds an image exactly the same dimensions as the face in the Shroud, with hair and beard exactly the same as the Shroud, imbedded on a cloth which has not been produced since the first century. While not as much has been done to test this cloth, the facts that are known of it are consistent with the face on the Shroud of Turin. Oh, I know...you'll say it was painted...prove it.

Actually I would say that these are more than likely supernatural. That wouldn't make them any less of a false miracle though.

 

[Root of Jesse]

How does thinking about having sex with your own wife constitute 'lust'?

That's...insane.

The fruit of that teaching can be nothing but fear. "Am I thinking about her? Or fantasizing?" "Am I lusting? Or appreciating God's grace?" "Am I acting in sin? Or in perfect chastity?"

Spend a week or two on the Christian Advice board and you'll discover that a teaching like this bears only rot.

Lust is disordered desire. Disordered, being the operative word. I think it boils down to where your focus is. And I'm not here to try to say whether you do or don't. I believe that, if you offer your thoughts to God, he will help to keep you pure. Also, usually, if you want sex with your wife solely for your own gratification, that's lust. If you look at her, and all you see is sex, that's lust. If you think of her body parts, rather than the whole person, it's lust.

1 Cor 13 tells you the difference. Love is patient, kind, other-serving, sacrificial, as Christ loved us by being crucified.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So how is having strong sexual desires for your own wife/husband a sin?

How is having strong desires for an xbox a sin?

Because they're not God. Having a disordered disire for anything is making an idol of that object.

What's the first commandment?

Having desire is one thing. Desire is not lust. As Rev Randy said.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Now why would one fantasize about one's spouse? If you mean desire her, I understand but that isn't fantasy. Fantasizing is pretending she's not your wife but one of another role. Do we not understand the word fantasy? synonyms: imagination, fancy, invention, make-believe;
I really doubt God is smiling when we pretend our bride is the young cute Baby sitter.

Thanks for helping me get through.

 

[Root of Jesse]

How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O prince’s daughter!
The curves of your thighs are like jewels,
The work of the hands of a skillful workman.
2 Your navel is a rounded goblet;
It lacks no blended beverage.
Your waist is a heap of wheat
Set about with lilies.
3 Your two breasts are like two fawns,
Twins of a gazelle.
4 Your neck is like an ivory tower,
Your eyes like the pools in Heshbon
By the gate of Bath Rabbim.
Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon
Which looks toward Damascus.

5 Your head crowns you like Mount Carmel,
And the hair of your head is like purple;
A king is held captive by your tresses.
6 How fair and how pleasant you are,
O love, with your delights!
7 This stature of yours is like a palm tree,
And your breasts like its clusters.
8 I said, “I will go up to the palm tree,
I will take hold of its branches.”
Let now your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
The fragrance of your breath like apples,
9 And the roof of your mouth like the best wine. - Song of Solomon 7:1-9

For those who say lusting after your own spouses is a sin, ever read songs of Solomon?

The Song of Solomon is seen as a beautiful picture of the ideal Israel, the chosen people whom the Lord leads by degrees to a greater understanding and closer union in the bond of perfect love. Such readings of the Song build on Israel’s covenant tradition. Isaiah (Is 5:1–7; 54:4–8; 62:5), Jeremiah (Jer 2:2, 3, 32), and Ezekiel (Ez 16; 23) all characterize the covenant between the Lord and Israel as a marriage.

 

[Lion King]

That it's make-believe. Not real. I don't idealize my wife. I love her as she is. No ribbons or bows, no makeup, none of it. Just the way she is. Eyes wide open, thanks.

What Does the Bible Say About Lust?

Please show me where the exception for your spouse exists?

I have already shown you. Paul instructs us to marry if we cannot avoid lust.

What Christ forbid is lusting after a woman to whom you are NOT married to.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm sorry but you've lost me here.



This doesn't make any sense. We have scripture that says the child Mary conceived was of the Holy Spirit. After that it says that Joseph did not know her until she gave birth to Him. Why say that he didn't know her until after the birth? Why not just say "Joseph did not know her"? Why call Jesus her firstborn if He was her only born? I mean how many definitions does the word until have?

And you know, I'll just throw this out there, but it's funny that for this verse you're appealing to the Greek definition of "until" but when it comes to the "rock" argument you look to the Aramaic definition.

Mary answered the Angel saying "Fiat", "Let it be done unto me." "Yes." This implies that she could have said "No" or "Find someone else."

If we meet in a coffee shop, and have coffee, and upon parting, I say the archaic "Until we meet again." Does that imply that we will meet again?

The Aramaic is presented in the Gospel of John, and elsewhere. The name Jesus gave Peter was Kephas. Which translated to Greek was Petros, because an a at the end would be a feminine.

 

[Lion King]

Because they're not God. Having a disordered disire for anything is making an idol of that object.

What's the first commandment?

I take it you do not own any electrical gadgets in your house?

Having desire is one thing. Desire is not lust. As Rev Randy said.

Umm, lust is merely having a great desire for something. Clearly, Rev Randy is trying to create his own definition of the word lust. Maybe, you should ask him where he got such a definition.


epithumeó: desire, lust after
Original Word: ἐπιθυμέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epithumeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o)
Short Definition: I long for, covet, lust after
Definition: I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.


1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, "focused on" intensifying 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, "upon") what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – 'to long for, to desire very much' " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

Word Origin
from epi and thumos
Definition
desire, lust after
NASB Translation
covet (2), coveted (1), craved (1), desire (1), desired (2), desires (1), gladly (1), long (3), longing (1), lust (2), sets its desire (1).