How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

[Standing Up]

Standing Up:

"Oh my Jesus, forgives us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of thy mercy."

Here's a bit more about the prayer.

Fatima Prayer - Decade Prayer From Fatima for the Rosary

 

[SilverBlade]

I chalk these up as deception, as I wouldn't put it past the catholic church to engage in deception to draw attention to itself. I think it's all smoke and mirrors and misdirection.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

How do you explain the famous Marian apparitions on top of a Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt? How do you explain Eastern Orthodox Marian apparitions? Are all of the ancient Christian faiths trying to scam us? Or are all of the ancient Christian faiths demonic? Only 16th/17th - modern day are legit? People were lied to for 1,500-1,600 years?

It seems the ancients faiths that have always venerated the BVM see the apparitions and miracles. It's not just the Catholic Church trying to trick people into demonic activity/pagan ways. It's funny that Protestants are all too often unaware that Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy exists and believes as the Catholic Church believes about Mary and apparitions. It seems Protestants are unaware that they are a major minority whose beliefs are only a few hundred years old. RC, EO, and OO account for 70% of Christianity or more, and are all from around the holy land. How are ancient faiths from in and around the holy land, accounting for most of the world's christians and christian history so wrong, while a minority group only a few hundred years old, that happens to be splitered into tens of thousands of different denominations, is right? Did God say screw his people for a century and a half?

 

[Albion]

How do you explain the famous Marian apparitions on top of a Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt? How do you explain Eastern Orthodox Marian apparitions? Are all of the ancient Christian faiths trying to scam us? Or are all of the ancient Christian faiths demonic?

Those are some possible answers. But only some. Hallucinations, delusions, and simple misperceptions are not confined to any particular people or places.

It seems the ancients faiths that have always venerated the BVM see the apparitions and miracles. It's not just the Catholic Church trying to trick people into demonic activity/pagan ways. It's funny that Protestants are all too often unaware that Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy exists and believes as the Catholic Church believes about Mary and apparitions. It seems Protestants are unaware that they are a major minority whose beliefs are only a few hundred years old.

I assure you that Scriptural belief and practice is hardly to be called "only a few hundred years old."

RC, EO, and OO account for 70% of Christianity or more, and are all from around the holy land. How are ancient faiths from in and around the holy land, accounting for most of the world's christians and christian history so wrong

The thread you've started asks what the "non-Catholic" view of Marian apparitions, etc. is. Were you interested just in taking potshots at reformed Christians instead?

 

[98cwitr]

...apparitions, such as Fatima. Eucharistic bleeding miracles, that are confirmed with science? I also recently read in OBOB about a certain saint, that on the celebration of his feast day, every single year, a vial of his blood liquifies before the congregation; the one time it didn't liquify, in 1980, there was an earthquake that killed a lot of people in the region in which this miracle takes place.

Then there's also a bleeding Eucharist miracle that was scientifically tested. The Eucharist fell to the floor, where it began to bleed. Testing was positive for a damaged human heart...

Just curious how non-Catholics reconcile these things. And of course, Mary's wish for Russia to convert with her apparition at Fatima apparently came to pass with the Russian Orthodox Church.

sources plz...specifically to the testing done in paragraph 2

 

[Standing Up]

How do you explain the famous Marian apparitions on top of a Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt? How do you explain Eastern Orthodox Marian apparitions? Are all of the ancient Christian faiths trying to scam us? Or are all of the ancient Christian faiths demonic? Only 16th/17th - modern day are legit? People were lied to for 1,500-1,600 years?

It seems the ancients faiths that have always venerated the BVM see the apparitions and miracles. It's not just the Catholic Church trying to trick people into demonic activity/pagan ways. It's funny that Protestants are all too often unaware that Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy exists and believes as the Catholic Church believes about Mary and apparitions. It seems Protestants are unaware that they are a major minority whose beliefs are only a few hundred years old. RC, EO, and OO account for 70% of Christianity or more, and are all from around the holy land. How are ancient faiths from in and around the holy land, accounting for most of the world's christians and christian history so wrong, while a minority group only a few hundred years old, that happens to be splitered into tens of thousands of different denominations, is right? Did God say screw his people for a century and a half?

So, your icon says Lutheran, but you prefer RC, EO, OO and dismiss Protestants are too recent? Why not convert?

To answer your question, God dealt patiently when the ark was built or the Levitical system was maintained. thousands of years. Why should Christianity be different?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

How do you explain the famous Marian apparitions on top of a Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt? How do you explain Eastern Orthodox Marian apparitions? Are all of the ancient Christian faiths trying to scam us? Or are all of the ancient Christian faiths demonic? Only 16th/17th - modern day are legit? People were lied to for 1,500-1,600 years?

It seems the ancients faiths that have always venerated the BVM see the apparitions and miracles. It's not just the Catholic Church trying to trick people into demonic activity/pagan ways. It's funny that Protestants are all too often unaware that Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy exists and believes as the Catholic Church believes about Mary and apparitions. It seems Protestants are unaware that they are a major minority whose beliefs are only a few hundred years old. RC, EO, and OO account for 70% of Christianity or more, and are all from around the holy land. How are ancient faiths from in and around the holy land, accounting for most of the world's christians and christian history so wrong, while a minority group only a few hundred years old, that happens to be splitered into tens of thousands of different denominations, is right? Did God say screw his people for a century and a half?

Just a bit of advice-
For the thread lurkers, posts like this really don't do much to promote the RCC/EO point of view, but only sow discord. If Protestants are "all too often unaware" of things (how do you know, btw...?) then educate them, instead of reminding them how uneducated they are and elevating yourself in the process.
Peace.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So, your icon says Lutheran, but you prefer RC, EO, OO and dismiss Protestants are too recent? Why not convert?

To answer your question, God dealt patiently when the ark was built or the Levitical system was maintained. thousands of years. Why should Christianity be different?

Many of us Lutherans don't consider ourselves Protestant. We classify Protestants as the theological descendents of the Swiss, French, and Dutch Reformed. Lutheranism, like Anglicanism, is an independent ecclesiastical movement in continuity with the pre-Reformation state churches of Germany and Scandanavia.

 

[Rhamiel]

Just a bit of advice-
For the thread lurkers, posts like this really don't do much to promote the RCC/EO point of view, but only sow discord. If Protestants are "all too often unaware" of things (how do you know, btw...?) then educate them, instead of reminding them how uneducated they are and elevating yourself in the process.
Peace.

if you are going to talk about "sowing discord" you should be addressing the endless posts that that are calling my Church demonic

that is doing far to create division then a snippy tone in a few posts

 

[ImaginaryDay]

if you are going to talk about "sowing discord" you should be addressing the endless posts that that are calling my Church demonic

that is doing far to create division then a snippy tone in a few posts

Well, I could, but that requires me to be on CF 24/7. Besides, most RCC's/EO's here seem to do quite well on that by themselves. You all don't seem to scare too easily and can defend your own faith better than I possibly could.

That one post just seemed to suggest that non-RC/EO are unlearned and that stuff just gets under my skin, especially when these questions are of significant importance to me personally at the moment.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, I could, but that requires me to be on CF 24/7. Besides, most RCC's/EO's here seem to do quite well on that by themselves. You all don't seem to scare too easily and can defend your own faith better than I possibly could.

That one post just seemed to suggest that non-RC/EO are unlearned and that stuff just gets under my skin, especially when these questions are of significant importance to me personally at the moment.

I'd like to assume that the folk reading in this thread do know that Orthodox Christians also venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and that they too have reported apparitions of Blessed Mary and of other saints too as well as angels. But some posts suggest otherwise.

Personally, I am not too concerned about what somebody who calls Catholics pagans has to say about Blessed Mary, but out of good manners one usually reads their posts and sometimes replies to them in the hope that facts and a sound recounting of history may help correct errors. Nevertheless one's hope is not too often realised. God willing the fruit of patient instruction will come forth with time and if this seems to be arrogant of overly pious that does not trouble me in the least; some will take offence no matter what is written by one whose opinion does not match their own.

God be merciful to us all.

 

[Standing Up]

if you are going to talk about "sowing discord" you should be addressing the endless posts that that are calling my Church demonic

that is doing far to create division then a snippy tone in a few posts

We've seen that the Fatima visions turn people away from Christ to some entity Immaculate Heart.

It's hard to believe that this is so for some people, even though the vision clearly says so. Perhaps it might help to understand this has happened before.

Acts 7:42
Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
v43Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

So, it's not like God won't permit this for people keen on doing so.

Here's my suggestion:

Phil 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

At least "go with" visions that preach Christ, not "Immaculate Heart".

 

[Standing Up]

Many of us Lutherans don't consider ourselves Protestant. We classify Protestants as the theological descendents of the Swiss, French, and Dutch Reformed. Lutheranism, like Anglicanism, is an independent ecclesiastical movement in continuity with the pre-Reformation state churches of Germany and Scandanavia.

I wonder what Luther, your namesake, would say ...

 

[Albion]

We've seen that the Fatima visions turn people away from Christ to some entity Immaculate Heart.

It's true. It's also somewhat mysterious to me why these folk who eagerly defend all Marian devotions on the premise that she, being the second Eve, immaculate, or whatever, deserves our highest veneration, AND YET they feel compelled to deny--at the same time--that they are revering her instead of Christ. If it's so terrific to say the rosary to Mary or pray to her at her shrine, why alibi around it?

 

[Stryder06]

She is, by all rights, the new ark of the covenant and the queen of heaven.

No she isn't and by what rights?

 

[Stryder06]

Devotions are practises that incline the practitioner to give to God what is due to him as creator, governor, and final end of all things. The Church recommends to the faithful that they pray daily, examine their conscience, confess, take time to withdraw from worldly concerns, and engage in private acts of piety. These things are devotions.

As with many things in the Christian life there is a kind of hierarchy of goods implied in the very nature of devotions. Thus one ought to consider that private devotions are subordinate to liturgical devotions and that among the liturgical devotions there is also an order implied. So, when we speak of devotions in general one ought to keep in mind that devotion is most deeply expressed in the Mass and in the prayer of the church - that is, the liturgy of the hours - and that devotions related to private revelations (such as Fatima, Lourdes, and the devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus as well as the Immaculate Heart of Mary) are always to be subordinate to the main liturgical devotions mentioned above.

Keeping in mind the distinctions mentioned above one ought to note first that devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary is a private devotion and as such is a private act of piety - it can no more save a person than any acts of piety, prayer, and service to God can. So, answering the question about the place of such devotions in the economy of salvation we ought to observe that all acts of prayer, confession, examination of conscience and so forth are means through which one can grow closer to God but they are not means by which one is saved. Salvation is always and only a work of God in the souls of the faithful (who are sinners come to God for salvation) and never a work wrought by any human being other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nice explanation.

Having set the stage you can consider the contents of the two devotions; namely, devotion to the sacred heart of Jesus and devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary.

I recommend that those interested in the details of the devotions click this link and read the prayers and comments contained therein.​

If you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church in printed form then turn to the following section:

• PART FOUR: CHRISTIAN PRAYER
  • SECTION ONE: PRAYER IN THE CHRISTIAN LIFE
    • CHAPTER TWO: THE TRADITION OF PRAYER
      • ARTICLE 2: THE WAY OF PRAYER (page 640 in my printed edition of the CCC)

And read that article; it starts at Paragraph 2663.
Or click this link to see the article online.

So this is from A Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary:

Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as You wish to accomplish Your designs in the world.
O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and Queen of the World, rule over us, together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King. Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism; kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity, the practice of a virtuous life, an ardent zeal for souls, and a desire to pray the Rosary more faithfully.
We come with confidence to You, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed Your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes Your shrine, and through us, make the Heart of Jesus, together with your rule, triumph in every heart and home.

​

Um, yeah, I don't know how you read this, but I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would petition Mary like this. What design does Mary have for the world? Why would she rule over us? How is she the "Throne of Grace", and why would you ask her to make your heart and homes her shrine? I also have an issue with the capitalization of the pronouns in regards to her.

Here's another:

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, in this tragic hour of the world's history, we entrust and consecrate ourselves to your Immaculate Heart, our only refuge, our hope, our salvation. Have pity on this world, torn by the most terrible conflicts, burning with the fires of hate, victim of its own sins. May your Heart be moved at the sight of so much ruin, pain and sorrow.
We consecrate to your maternal heart our persons, our families, our country--the whole of humanity. Protect and save us!

​

How in the world is Mary's heart our only refuge, hope and salvation? Really? Why does the world need her pity? Why would you ask her to protect and save you?

​

 

[98cwitr]

Nice explanation.



So this is from A Solemn Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary:

Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as You wish to accomplish Your designs in the world.
O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, and Queen of the World, rule over us, together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King. Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism; kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity, the practice of a virtuous life, an ardent zeal for souls, and a desire to pray the Rosary more faithfully.
We come with confidence to You, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed Your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes Your shrine, and through us, make the Heart of Jesus, together with your rule, triumph in every heart and home.

Um, yeah, I don't know how you read this, but I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would petition Mary like this. What design does Mary have for the world? Why would she rule over us? How is she the "Throne of Grace", and why would you ask her to make your heart and homes her shrine? I also have an issue with the capitalization of the pronouns in regards to her.
​

I wonder the same thing...there's nothing in Scripture to suggest Mary worship.

 

[Albion]

We've seen that the Fatima visions turn people away from Christ to some entity Immaculate Heart.

I've already commented on the above observation, but I've continued to think about it. The comparison between members of the reformed churches and the unreformed churches is striking on this matter.

While we go to the Father, confident that he wants to hear from us and will deny us nothing that is good for us--just as Jesus taught--our friends in the other branches of Christianity are actually afraid to do that. They think that their prayers and petitions are unworthy to be heard by God and so they must find a "broker" or agent to carry them to the Father on their behalf--a broker or representative who has more influence with God.

That is exactly what the RCC has taught generations of its people, and it's a great pity. If only these otherwise sincere followers of Christ could be made to understand that Our Father is waiting to hear from us....

 

[Stryder06]

I've already commented on the above observation, but I've continued to think about it. The comparison between members of the reformed churches and the unreformed churches is striking on this matter.

While we go to the Father, confident that he wants to hear from us and will deny us nothing that is good for us--just as Jesus taught--our friends in the other branches of Christianity are actually afraid to do that. They think that their prayers and petitions are unworthy to be heard by God and so they must find a "broker" or agent to carry them to the Father on their behalf--a broker or representative who has more influence with God.

That is exactly what the RCC has taught generations of its people, and it's a great pity. If only these otherwise sincere followers of Christ could be made to understand that Our Father is waiting to hear from us....

From scripture we see that we are to Petition the Father, in the name of the Son, and those petitions are actually polished up by the Holy Spirit. From the prayers I've read, it seems as if Mary takes the place of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Standing Up]

"Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, in this tragic hour of the world's history, we entrust and consecrate ourselves to your Immaculate Heart, our only refuge, our hope, our salvation."

Nice explanation.-snip-
Here's another:


How in the world is Mary's heart our only refuge, hope and salvation? Really? Why does the world need her pity? Why would you ask her to protect and save you?

[/color][/left]
[/left]

Wow. Just wow. The heart of "Mary" is our salvation, they think.

The "refuge" part is old, but the "salvation" part is new. Thus it goes from bad to worse.

Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This usurping of "Mary as refuge and salvation" is a distortion of understanding who God is:

Psalm 36:7
How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Ps 57:1
Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.

Ps. 91:4
He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.