Calvinist Arminian dialog

[Skala]

I agree with Spurgeon. He's simply making the point that while God decrees all things, somehow, man always acts as he pleases without compulsion.

It's not as if when God predestined wicked men to kill Christ, (Acts 4:27-28) those men were saying "No!! I don't want to kill Christ, but God is making me do it against my will!"

I do have to say, though, that it seems only Calvinists consistently agree with Spurgeon. Calvinsts alone affirm both truths:

1) God controls all things
2) Man acts as he pleases, and is held responsible for his actions

It seems like Arminians, unable to reconcile these two truths, are willing to toss away one truth for the other (They toss away truth #1 so that truth #2 will stand) So that they are left with a God who isn't sovereign. In Arminiansm, God has "given up his sovereignty" so that truth #2 can remain. Just ask them. They will gladly tell you that they believe that "God has sovereignly chosen to not be sovereign". (Yes, I've heard many Arminians use those exact words!!)

In Arminianism, God cannot make any decrees whatsoever. History must play out as the human will determines it. God makes no determination at all (Arminians are quick to deny determinism)

Calvinists are content to affirm both truths and chalk it up to mystery and our finite minds' inability to understand it.

I really don't see what's so hard about letting God be God. If God wants to use His own creation as He sees fit, unto his own glorification, why do alleged Christians find a problem with that?

 

[SeventhValley]

Sakala said : In Arminianism, God cannot make any decrees whatsoever. History must play out as the human will determines it. God makes no determination at all (Arminians are quick to deny determinism)

Let me clarify this.

In Arminianism God has a plan for the world and humanity that will be accomplished. God has his elect who will accomplish this for him. The elect (like Isreal) are made up of free agents who choose to be elect because God regenrates humanity enough to make choices to be elect or to be divorced from God(just as Isreal was cut off and Paul warns Gentiles can be also).

So in Arminiaism God has total sovereignty while also letting people have choices. God dose foreknow and predestines off of that. God also decided that in order to be truly glorifed the praise given to him must come from those who choose to follow him not those who once drawn, turn away. But in order for humans to be in his image this was what he decided to do.

In Arminian thought God could totally control and predestine people but the sovereign God chooses to let us have a choice.

In Arminianism God dose whatever God wants to do. Even if we cannot comprehend it as humans.

So I can agree with Spurgeon's quote while holding a Arminian view. This is why I like Spurgeon he was a Calvinist that also worked with and shared the pulpit with Arminians.

 

[Skala]

Let me clarify this.

In Arminianism God has a plan for the world and humanity that will be accomplished. God has his elect who will accomplish this for him. The elect (like Isreal) are made up of free agents who choose to be elect

Israel didn't choose to be chosen by God. God took it upon himself to choose them.

because God regenrates humanity enough to make choices to be elect or to be divorced from God(just as Isreal was cut off and Paul warns Gentiles can be also).

I think you mean prevenient grace, not regeneration. Regeneration is synonymous with being born again, the new birth, etc. Of course, basing a theology on prevenient grace existing would necessitate that you can demonstrate it from scripture, something I have yet to be seen done in all my years of discussing this topic.

So in Arminiaism God has total sovereignty while also letting people have choices.
In Arminian thought God could totally control and predestine people but the sovereign God chooses to let us have a choice.

That's exactly what I said Arminians would say, lol. See?

In Arminiansm, God has "given up his sovereignty" so that truth #2 can remain. Just ask them. They will gladly tell you that they believe that "God has sovereignly chosen to not be sovereign". (Yes, I've heard many Arminians use those exact words!!)

 

[SeventhValley]

Israel didn't choose to be chosen by God. God took it upon himself to choose them.

You are mistaking Isreal with the people who make it up. The Elect in Arminianism are those who God knows will finish the race. But God because it is his will gives us a choice to accept him or reject him.

I think you mean prevenient grace, not regeneration. Regeneration is synonymous with being born again, the new birth, etc. Of course, basing a theology on prevenient grace existing would necessitate that you can demonstrate it from scripture, something I have yet to be seen done in all my years of discussing this topic.

It is pretty easy because it is all over scripture.

Ezekiel 34:11, 16 (ESV): "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out...I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak..." Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..."
Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us."

John 12:32: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Prevenient grace is a part of regeneration.

That's exactly what I said Arminians would say, lol. See?

I just say what I read in the scriptures, but I realize like Spurgeon did that many people will read different things and we can still get along even with differences in theology.

 

[OzSpen]

Israel didn't choose to be chosen by God. God took it upon himself to choose them.

You seem to be overlooking Joshua 24:14-15,

14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (ESV)

Israel has a choice as to which God/gods they would serve. That's Bible!

 

[OzSpen]

You are mistaking Isreal with the people who make it up. The Elect in Arminianism are those who God knows will finish the race. But God because it is his will gives us a choice to accept him or reject him.

It is pretty easy because it is all over scripture.

Ezekiel 34:11, 16 (ESV): "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out...I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak..." Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..."
Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us."

John 12:32: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Prevenient grace is a part of regeneration.

I just say what I read in the scriptures, but I realize like Spurgeon did that many people will read different things and we can still get along even with differences in theology.

As to prevenient grace, this is my understanding of its meaning (which I support).

Roger Olson, an Arminian, stated that prevenient grace “is the powerful but resistible drawing of God” towards the unbeliever. ‘Prevenient grace’ is not a biblical term, “but it is a biblical concept assumed everywhere in scripture” (2006:159).

The Remonstrants,[1] Article 4 (as the earliest Arminians), described it this way:

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).

The Remonstrants understood that there was only one way to eternal salvation and that was achieved when God’s grace came to human beings before, during and after justification. Why was God’s grace needed in this way? It was because, as the Remonstrants stated, that no human being could ‘think, will, nor do good’ unless they received God’s prevenient or assisting grace.

Why do people not receive this assisting grace from God? It is because human beings are created with a free will to accept or reject God’s prevenient grace. The resistance by people is not because of God’s doing, it is because of the rebelliousness of the human heart and people choose to reject this prevenient grace. This failure of human beings to believe is not blamed on God (i.e. he did not give irresistible grace to people) but on

the rebellion and resistance of fallen human beings. God created human beings with the free will wither to cooperate with God and receive His grace or to reject finally God’s gracious gift…. Human beings would have no salvation at all apart from the grace of God; but God refuses to actualize that salvation in the life of anyone who continually resists God’s grace, refuses to humbly receive it, and finally rejects it’ (Lemke 2010:110).

Oz

 

[AndOne]

My problem with prevenient grace is that it leaves God powerless. He is up there in heaven trying as hard as He can to save everybody but he just isn't succeeding. That is not the God of scripture, friends - sorry. Nowhere in scripture is God presented as trying to save everybody and failing in some respect.

 

[SeventhValley]

God dose not fail and is all powerful in the Arminian view. In our view free will and choice only exist because they are God's will for us.

 

[OzSpen]

My problem with prevenient grace is that it leaves God powerless. He is up there in heaven trying as hard as He can to save everybody but he just isn't succeeding. That is not the God of scripture, friends - sorry. Nowhere in scripture is God presented as trying to save everybody and failing in some respect.

That's a false understanding of prevenient grace that is provided by the omnipotent, omniscient Lord God almighty.

My problem with unconditional election is that it makes God into an unjust dictator who decides before the foundation of the world who WILL BE in the kingdom and who WON'T BE. Deterministic dictator is how I see him, hence my not accepting such a view as I can't see it in Scripture. It does not align with 'whosoever will may come' and 'God is not wishing that any should perish'.

 

[OzSpen]

God dose not fail and is all powerful in the Arminian view. In our view free will and choice only exist because they are God's will for us.

dose = does.

 

[Skala]

You are mistaking Isreal with the people who make it up. The Elect in Arminianism are those who God knows will finish the race. But God because it is his will gives us a choice to accept him or reject him.

did God know Israel would finish the race? On what basis did God choose Israel, out of all the other nations? Was it for their great obedience? They were idolaters. Was it for their morality? They were constantly engaged in paganism and being scolded by the prophets.

The fact that God chose Israel unconditionally supports the concept of unconditional election.

It is pretty easy because it is all over scripture.

None of the verses you quoted speak of an enabling grace that helps man overcome his depraved nature in order to make a good spiritual choice.

Prevenient grace is a part of regeneration.

Not sure your fellow Arminians would agree with you.

I just say what I read in the scriptures, but I realize like Spurgeon did that many people will read different things and we can still get along even with differences in theology.

There is a great deal we can agree on, however, when Spurgeon affirms God's sovereignty, he means something completely different than when you affirm God's sovereignty.

So you're both off on different feet from the beginning. To reiterate, when a Calvinist and Arminian say "God is sovereign", they mean two different things. To the Calvinist, God is actually sovereign. To the Arminian, God is just observing and letting creation determine itself.

 

[Skala]

You seem to be overlooking Joshua 24:14-15,

Israel has a choice as to which God/gods they would serve. That's Bible!

What was the list of options Joshua told his listeners to choose between, in that verse?

 

[Skala]

There is no way that I, an Arminian, would ever affirm the position that 'if God allows us to either shape up and be saved'

But that's exactly what you believe. In your view, God gives prevenient grace to all. Some make better use of this prev. grace than others, and are saved as a result. Some of them were just wiser, or smarter, or more righteous, or more spiritual than those who remained in unbelief.

In your view, what makes two men to differ? It cannot be grace that makes them differ, because the same prev. grace is given to all. Therefore, what makes the saved differ from the unsaved is something about the men themselves. The saved were somehow better, they did something to make themselves stand out from the unsaved.

They "shaped up and got saved".

In Arminianism, grace is not what makes two men to differ.
In Calvinism, it is. That is why the Reformers coined "sola gratia". Arminianism cannot claim sola gratia, because in Arminianism, grace is not what made you differ from the one that ends up in hell.

 

[OzSpen]

What was the list of options Joshua told his listeners to choose between, in that verse?

The text is clear. Please read it: Choose...

• 'whom you will serve';
• 'the gods your fathers served', OR
• 'the gods of the Amorites;
• 'As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord' (Joshua 24:15)

The ability of contrary choice is given by God to all people. And it started in the garden with Adam in choosing to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil OR not to choose such.


Why do you find this so difficult to understand when the Scriptures are crystal clear? Well, they are crystal clear in my hermeneutical understanding.


Oz

 

[SeventhValley]

The Catholic Orthodox view is that the church controls the sacraments and if you are not baptized ,confess ,and take communion with the church you are damned.

The biblical view is that through grace we are regenerated enough to make a choice to stay in Christ or to reject him. But God foreknows and predestined off of that since he gave us free will.

The hyper reformed view is that all is predetermined instead of foreknown.That life is a giant watch with no consciousness. What is interesting is that this is the view Atheists Materialists like Daniel Dennet have.

 

[Skala]

The text is clear. Please read it: Choose...

• 'whom you will serve';
• 'the gods your fathers served', OR
• 'the gods of the Amorites;
• 'As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord' (Joshua 24:15)

The ability of contrary choice is given by God to all people. And it started in the garden with Adam in choosing to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil OR not to choose such.


Why do you find this so difficult to understand when the Scriptures are crystal clear? Well, they are crystal clear in my hermeneutical understanding.


Oz

Joshua told them to choose from between their false gods. He never asked them to choose between their false gods, or the Real God.

He didn't say "choose this day whom you will server, whether the gods of the Amorites, or the gods your fathers served, or the Lord".

thus, you are using that verse out of context. you are using it in application for something it doesn't even support.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Rom 11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2save some of them. So why did Paul say this if he was not saying that he was trying to save some of the Jews who had fallen because of unbelief? Did he not know as you say, that only the elect would be saved? http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn3 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1


http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref2

 

[SeventhValley]

Arminius does not have a public or private
disputation dedicated to the topic of
regeneration. His most prominent writings on
the subject are found in his commentary on
the 7th chapter of Romans especially part 1
“Thesis to be Proved” , article 16 of his
Apology against Certain Theological Articles
and Article 20 in Certain Articles to be
Diligently Weighed and Examined .
In his commentary on Romans 7, Arminius
contrasts the regenerate man with the “almost
saved” man described in passages such as
Hebrews 6:4-6 & 2 Peter 2:20-22. These
people had experienced the Holy Ghost, but
were not yet regenerate. He emphasizes that
the regenerate is free from the bondage of
and experiences victory over sin. He uses this
description to contrast a regenerate man to
the man described in the second half of
Romans 7 who is under the bondage of sin.
The regenerate man, through the assistance of
grace, is enabled to think, will and do what is
truly good.
"When he is made a partaker of this
regeneration or renovation, I consider that,
since he is delivered from sin, he is capable
of thinking, willing and doing that which is
good, but yet not without the continued aids
of Divine Grace." (link)
Regeneration restores every part of man, his
mind, will, desires and thoughts:
"Regeneration not only illuminates the mind
and conforms the will, but it likewise restrains
and regulates the affections, and directs the
external and the internal members to
obedience to the divine law." (link )
His view was that regeneration restores man
back to the state they were in innocence. This
can be seen from his frequently appeals to
Colossians 3:10 and Ephesians 4:24 to
describe regeneration.
"This admits easily of proof, from the
description of the image of God, after which
man is said to have been created, (Genesis
1:26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on
him, which had a promise and a threat
appended to it, (2:17,) and lastly from the
analogous restoration of the same image in
Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 4:24, Colossians
3:10.) ( link)
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which
is renewed in knowledge after the image of
him that created him
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness
and true holiness.
Adam was created in the image of God, but
that image was damaged by the fall.
Regeneration renews that image and corrects
what that fall corrupted. Adam was able to sin
or not, so therefore the regenerate man is
able to sin or refrain from sin. He views the
Calvinist position that regeneration
necessitates that a person believes as opposed
to leaving man’s options open as contrary to
restoration.
“For, if we do not say that the mind of a man
may possibly be inclined in another direction,
even at the time when it is inclined in a given
direction by efficacious grace, it follows that
the will of man acts not according to the
mode of liberty, but according to the mode of
nature, and thus not the free-will, but the
nature of man, will be saved. But the free-
will, at least as to its exercise, will be, in that
case, destroyed by grace, while it belongs to
grace not to take away, but to correct nature
itself, wherein it has become corrupt.”

Traditional Baptist Chronicles: Arminius on Regeneration

 

[SeventhValley]

I can commune with anyone who says God knows all we no nothing. You must repent and turn from sin and try to do good while glorifying God.

I can leave the how alone.

 

[AndOne]

Where does the "PRE" end ?

IOW, could there be a (PRE) prevenient grace ?


If for some reason (never explained or proven Biblically) prevenient grace is necessary for saving grace, how do we know there is not something vitally necesssary that triggers prevenient grace ? Since the success rate of prevenient grace is not 100% we can conclude it is not of God. But, not all see it this way.


In the same way some povs fabricate PG to facilitate a more friendly soteriology, why not go a step further and postulate PPG is given to all men which is as equally superfluous as PG ?! If prevenient grace is a tool that helps men get saved, then pre-prevenient grace is even better !

I'll stick with the Bible on this one - read Romans 8 for details.