Spurgeon taught that God wants everyone to be saved

[Hammster]

That the people wanted Christ dead because they viewed Him as a blasphemer, but that He was the Christ and to turn to Him to save them, which they did.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (Acts 2:23 NASB)

I don't think your view matches scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

When Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" He was quoted the opening verse of Psalm 22, which is a detailed description of His ordeal on the cross. He was engaging in an often used method of teaching that any Jew of the day would understand. By hearing that verse quoted, the hearer would think of the entire passage. Being a Rabbi, Jesus used that method often. And don't give me any guff about Jesus not being a Rabbi, because people referred to Him as such in the gospels.

A good term for this would be "abbreviated referencing". Something we westerners have not learned.

Now, answer me this. How could God be separated from Himself? Jesus, even in human form, was (and is) as much God as a the Father and the Holy Spirit. There was never a moment when Jesus ceased being God.

His physical death did accomplish something, it fulfilled the requirement of death for sin. That's why Jesus had to die physically. The Law states "the soul that sins shall die". The term "soul" here refers to the whole person, in the same exact way as in Genesis where "God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."

When we are joined to Christ in faith, we are joined to His death and resurrection. In baptism we are joined to Him in burial. His physical death moved all in Him beyond the penalty of death for sin, which means that the penalty has been paid, and we can be justified.

So I reject in the strongest possible terms the suggestion that Jesus died spiritually. It is bad doctrine, and shows a deep misunderstanding of the redemptive work of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

I really don't understand how you aren't understanding what Jesus SAID. Yes, He died; spiritually for our sins, and physically, when His mission on earth was over. But He wasn't killed by anyone. Oh yes, the Romans did their best in that area, but they didn't kill Him.

Are you aware of how long people tended to live while hanging on a cross. Lee Strobel, author of "The Case for Christ" found sources that indicated that one person lived 9 days on a cross. But most lived for many hours. Even the 2 criminals were still alive when ordered to have their legs broken, to hasten death. Even Pilate was surprised to find that Jesus was already dead. That is a clue to the fact that the crucifixion didn't kill Him. Most people lasted a lot longer than either Jesus or the 2 criminals. And they would have lasted longer if their legs hadn't been broken.

Lee Strobel presented a very solid case for the fact that the crucifixion didn't kill Him.

Why do you think that I doubt this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (Acts 2:23 NASB)

I don't think your view matches scripture.

Your opinion has been noted. Who was he talking to? Those who thought He was killed by the cross. That's all. Nothing more.

I think we should move on, now. Maybe you just don't want to get it. I don't know, but it seems to me that you have no idea at all of what was really going on and the significance of His spiritual death on behalf of our sins.

But I've explained it in detail. There's no more I can do to reveal truth. If you want to think His physical death had some effect, then go ahead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you think that I doubt this?

Because you've made it very clear is why. You seem stuck on the idea that he was killed.

 

[Hammster]

Your opinion has been noted. Who was he talking to? Those who thought He was killed by the cross. That's all. Nothing more.

Was their misunderstanding part of God's predetermined plan?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Was their misunderstanding part of God's predetermined plan?

Please clarify as to what you mean by "their misunderstanding". I don't see any relevance to anyone's misunderstanding and God's predetermined plan, but maybe you do.

God's predetermined plan was for His Son to go to the cross and pay the death penalty for the sins of the whole world, which He did.

So, whether or not anyone misunderstood anything seems irrelevant.

 

[Hammster]

Please clarify as to what you mean by "their misunderstanding". I don't see any relevance to anyone's misunderstanding and God's predetermined plan, but maybe you do.

God's predetermined plan was for His Son to go to the cross and pay the death penalty for the sins of the whole world, which He did.

So, whether or not anyone misunderstood anything seems irrelevant.

It was God's predetermined plan that godless men put Jesus to death. But you make it sound like someone is mistaken about that.

 

[Hammster]

I think it would help if we could get a clear explanation as to why Peter would say that God predetermined to have godless men put Jesus to death.

 

[crimsonleaf]

deleted

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was God's predetermined plan that godless men put Jesus to death. But you make it sound like someone is mistaken about that.

No, you are trying to confuse the issue here. God's plan was to have His Son pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. Rom 6:23 refers to spiritual death. The only way for a man to pay for his own sins is to be eternally separated from God. Jesus did that for the sins of the whole world.

From our perspective, He bore our sins for about 3 hours, when God the Father shut off the lights due to the horrific sight it must have been for His Son to be suffering the punishment for the sins of the whole world. But because God is eternal, not bound by time, He actually paid the sin debt by being separated from his Father (spiritual death). If someone knifed Him in a crowd, etc, how would He have been able pay the sin debt? The cross was the only vehicle in which He could have had the time to do that.

But maybe you still think of His death as only physical. Well, we will just have to disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think it would help if we could get a clear explanation as to why Peter would say that God predetermined to have godless men put Jesus to death.

OK, here it is in very simple yet plain terms. Godless men put Jesus in a "place" where He could pay for the sins of the whole world. An "instant" killing of any kind, whether by knife, gun, etc, would not have allowed Him the necessary time to bear the sins of the whole world.

If so, why the necessity of the cross, and the time involved? For no reason? I surely doubt that.

And the cross was the official and legal method of execution in the Roman Empire. Jesus was executed by Roman law. Not that the crucifixion killed Him, as I've already explained.

Every time the Bible mentions the "death of Christ" or the "blood of Christ", it refers to His spiritual death.

It's very sad how poorly pastors have been taught basic doctrines, so that the vast majority of believers have no idea or clue as to what really happened on the cross.

I've given verses to support my understanding. All you and others have done is disagree. So, if I'm wrong, where is the actual refutation from Scripture?

 

[Hammster]

OK, here it is in very simple yet plain terms. Godless men put Jesus in a "place" where He could pay for the sins of the whole world. An "instant" killing of any kind, whether by knife, gun, etc, would not have allowed Him the necessary time to bear the sins of the whole world.

If so, why the necessity of the cross, and the time involved? For no reason? I surely doubt that.

And the cross was the official and legal method of execution in the Roman Empire. Jesus was executed by Roman law. Not that the crucifixion killed Him, as I've already explained.

Every time the Bible mentions the "death of Christ" or the "blood of Christ", it refers to His spiritual death.

It's very sad how poorly pastors have been taught basic doctrines, so that the vast majority of believers have no idea or clue as to what really happened on the cross.

I've given verses to support my understanding. All you and others have done is disagree. So, if I'm wrong, where is the actual refutation from Scripture?

Peter says godless men put Jesus to death. Why are you disagreeing with this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Peter says godless men put Jesus to death. Why are you disagreeing with this?

Why are you not understanding anything I've said and explained?

The "death" that Peter was referring to was His spiritual death. The godless men put Him on a cross so He could die for sins, which is a spiritual, not a physical, death. But it seems that none of you Calvinists actually understand that He died spiritually on the cross.

So, I guess there's no need for further discussion. Kinda like you can't talk algebra if you don't know arithmetic.

 

[Hammster]

Why are you not understanding anything I've said and explained?

The "death" that Peter was referring to was His spiritual death. The godless men put Him on a cross so He could die for sins, which is a spiritual, not a physical, death. But it seems that none of you Calvinists actually understand that He died spiritually on the cross.

So, I guess there's no need for further discussion. Kinda like you can't talk algebra if you don't know arithmetic.

So the godless men put Him to spiritual death? That's what Peter meant?

 

[Hammster]

OK, here it is in very simple yet plain terms. Godless men put Jesus in a "place" where He could pay for the sins of the whole world. An "instant" killing of any kind, whether by knife, gun, etc, would not have allowed Him the necessary time to bear the sins of the whole world.

The verse doesn't say that. And there's no way the original hearers would have had that understanding. You cannot even show that Peter had that understanding.

If so, why the necessity of the cross, and the time involved? For no reason? I surely doubt that.

And the cross was the official and legal method of execution in the Roman Empire. Jesus was executed by Roman law. Not that the crucifixion killed Him, as I've already explained.

Every time the Bible mentions the "death of Christ" or the "blood of Christ", it refers to His spiritual death.

Please give some examples.

It's very sad how poorly pastors have been taught basic doctrines, so that the vast majority of believers have no idea or clue as to what really happened on the cross.

Are you saying that your pastor should repent?

I've given verses to support my understanding. All you and others have done is disagree. So, if I'm wrong, where is the actual refutation from Scripture?

You've yet to show how it is that those who heard Peter preach at Pentecost would come up with your understanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So the godless men put Him to spiritual death? That's what Peter meant?

Like I said, kinda like algebra and arithmetic. I'm sorry you haven't been able to follow my explanations.

Which is why I suggested there is no further need to discuss.

 

[Hammster]

Like I said, kinda like algebra and arithmetic. I'm sorry you haven't been able to follow my explanations.

Which is why I suggested there is no further need to discuss.

Okay. You can't explain it. Fair enough. I'll leave you alone on this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay. You can't explain it. Fair enough. I'll leave you alone on this.

I wish you'd stop making your erroneous insinuations. You know better. You haven't understood it. That doesn't mean I haven't explained it properly.

Do you understand or recognize that Jesus died spiritually on the cross or not? That will determine which one of us has the problem in communication.

 

[Hammster]

I wish you'd stop making your erroneous insinuations. You know better. You haven't understood it. That doesn't mean I haven't explained it properly.

Do you understand or recognize that Jesus died spiritually on the cross or not? That will determine which one of us has the problem in communication.

I didn't insinuate. I agreed with you. You meant that I was on the algebra level. If that's not what you meant, then it was an insult. Those are frowned upon here.

As to Him dying spiritually, you'll have to give more info. Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Copeland believe He died spiritually. I disagree with them.