Spurgeon taught that God wants everyone to be saved

[crimsonleaf]

"According to" me???? Where do you get that? I never agreed to any such thing. Please don't ascribe to me what I haven't SAID.


In your story, ACCORDING TO ME, he was killed by the Germans.


As I've just proven beyond any reasonable doubt, you are wrong. You need to understand what I've said before you make such statements as "according to you".



I'm not sure what to call your "very special outlook", but it sure isn't accurate regarding what is "according to me".

I'm really surprised as to how much you and hammster continue to ignore the very words of Jesus. Doesn't His words carry any weight with you? I really don't get it. And why do you dismiss John's words about Jesus dismissing His own spirit? Don't they carry any weight either?

Peter was speaking to people who considered that Jesus had been killed by others. He wasn't trying to "set the record straight" that He dismissed His own spirit. They wouldn't have understood that anyway. The general consensus of the people was that Jesus' physical death was caused by the Roman soldiers. That's all.

But you two should know better because you have Jesus' own words, and John's description of the event, which they didn't have.

Did Jesus commit suicide or was he killed? Answer please.

 

[Hammster]

A very odd response to my comment. I explained what Peter meant, and you don't believe it. That's fine. But your view makes Jesus the liar, then. And I don't believe you.

How does my view make Jesus a liar? I believe them both.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did Jesus commit suicide or was he killed? Answer please.

Neither. Apparently you do not understand what I posted. John wrote that Jesus "dismissed His spirit". John 19:30
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Please notice what Jesus DID. It does NOT say that He was killed. And dismissing His spirit isn't killing Himself, or suicide. He simply had finished His mission on earth, so He left of His own accord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How does my view make Jesus a liar? I believe them both.

Well, that's odd. Jesus said that no one would take His life from Him.

John 10:17-18
“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

By dismissing His own spirit, that means that no one killed Him. Your understanding of what Peter said and what Jesus said are in contradiction. Both cannot be correct.

Yet, I shouldn't expect anything else, since you have accepted the WCF statement on the decrees, which is internally contradicted as well.

 

[Hammster]

Well, that's odd. Jesus said that no one would take His life from Him.

John 10:17-18
“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

By dismissing His own spirit, that means that no one killed Him. Your understanding of what Peter said and what Jesus said are in contradiction. Both cannot be correct.

Yet, I shouldn't expect anything else, since you have accepted the WCF statement on the decrees, which is internally contradicted as well.

So you don't believe Peter. Is there anything else that Peter got wrong?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you don't believe Peter. Is there anything else that Peter got wrong?

The best that I can do for you is to suggest that you read over the posts. It's all there and real clear.

 

[Hammster]

The best that I can do for you is to suggest that you read over the posts. It's all there and real clear.

No need.

But Peter and Jesus don't contradict each other. And both ate correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No need.

But Peter and Jesus don't contradict each other. And both ate correct.

I don't know what they both ate, but yes, both are correct.

But this is what I said:

Your understanding of what Peter said and what Jesus said are in contradiction. Both cannot be correct.

If you take Peter's words in a literal sense of Jesus being physically killed, then you are wrong.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus was killed. Peter said so. And God orchestrated it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus was killed. Peter said so. And God orchestrated it.

I think you need to let this go, hammster. I explained it all to you. Jesus dismissed His own spirit. John SAID so. Why are you trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

No one took Jesus' life. He He left when His mission was finished (tetelestai).

The general consensus by the people was that those who die on a cross were killed, since everyone before and after Jesus DID die because of the cross.

But not so with Jesus. The death He suffered was complete separation from God, which we call "spiritual death". That's the death that paid the sin debt and purchased eternal redemption for everyone.

When that was finished, He had nothing else to do on earth, so He dismissed His spirit.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Neither. Apparently you do not understand what I posted. John wrote that Jesus "dismissed His spirit". John 19:30
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Please notice what Jesus DID. It does NOT say that He was killed. And dismissing His spirit isn't killing Himself, or suicide. He simply had finished His mission on earth, so He left of His own accord.

If I was being tortured to death there would come a point when I "dismiss (or give up, depending on the translation) my spirit". If you think that doesn't mean dying then you're really struggling with language.

Jesus died for us. He didn't "call it a day", "pack it in" or "go home". He died.

There are only two ways of dying: 1) something or somebody kills you, or 2) you use somebody or something to kill yourself.

If Jesus the man didn't die then nor was he resurrected. Where does that leave your faith?

 

[Hammster]

I think you need to let this go, hammster. I explained it all to you. Jesus dismissed His own spirit. John SAID so. Why are you trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

No one took Jesus' life. He He left when His mission was finished (tetelestai).

The general consensus by the people was that those who die on a cross were killed, since everyone before and after Jesus DID die because of the cross.

But not so with Jesus. The death He suffered was complete separation from God, which we call "spiritual death". That's the death that paid the sin debt and purchased eternal redemption for everyone.

When that was finished, He had nothing else to do on earth, so He dismissed His spirit.

So what was the message Peter was trying to convey at Pentecost?

 

[FreeGrace2]

If I was being tortured to death there would come a point when I "dismiss (or give up, depending on the translation) my spirit". If you think that doesn't mean dying then you're really struggling with language.

So it seems you are claiming that you have the power over your soul/spirit to dismiss it at any given time. Really? You're just kidding yourself if you are serious. You don't. People do "give up" and will eventually die, and it can be in hours or days. But Jesus immediately left His physical body.

 

[nobdysfool]

I think you need to let this go, hammster. I explained it all to you. Jesus dismissed His own spirit. John SAID so. Why are you trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

No one took Jesus' life. He He left when His mission was finished (tetelestai).

The general consensus by the people was that those who die on a cross were killed, since everyone before and after Jesus DID die because of the cross.

But not so with Jesus. The death He suffered was complete separation from God, which we call "spiritual death". That's the death that paid the sin debt and purchased eternal redemption for everyone.

When that was finished, He had nothing else to do on earth, so He dismissed His spirit.

So you're saying that Jesus died spiritually?

If that is so, then we are all in a deep pile of trouble.

 

[Don Maurer]

The death of Jesus is not merely quibbling over words. It is an important concept in a correct understanding of the substitutionary aspect of the Gospel. The curse in Adam began in Genesis when God pronounced the curse of death on Adam. In Romans 5:12, death comes along with sin. If Christ did not die, then he did not properly complete all that was needed for the curse to be lifted. Christ was cursed with death in our place. In Christianity it is called the "Death, burial, and resurrection of Christ." Without death, he was not a complete substitute. To deny the death of Christ is a perversion of the Gospel.

1 Cor 15:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you're saying that Jesus died spiritually?

If that is so, then we are all in a deep pile of trouble.

Good grief, really? Did you think His physical death did anything?

When Jesus asked the rhetorical question, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?", He was providing a "teaching moment" for us. He was informing the world of the significance of what He was doing. While being separated from His Father and the Spirit for those 3 hours, He was bearing our sins and being judged for them. I believe that explains why God "turned off the lights" by bringing total darkness so that no one would have to see the horrendous effect our sins had on Christ as He hung there and bore our sins.

Yes, He in fact DID die spiritually; that being, separated from the Father and Holy Spirit. It was THAT death that paid the penalty for sin.

And that corresponds to the person who doesn't believe; they die spiritually, not just physically. And their spiritual death is eternal separation from God.

I am saddened that Christ's spritual death seems to be so unknown among evangelicals. It shouldn't be that way.

And, no, we aren't in any kind of trouble, as you claim. His physical death didn't do anything. If that's all He did, then we'd all be in big trouble to this day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The death of Jesus is not merely quibbling over words. It is an important concept in a correct understanding of the substitutionary aspect of the Gospel. The curse in Adam began in Genesis when God pronounced the curse of death on Adam. In Romans 5:12, death comes along with sin. If Christ did not die, then he did not properly complete all that was needed for the curse to be lifted. Christ was cursed with death in our place. In Christianity it is called the "Death, burial, and resurrection of Christ." Without death, he was not a complete substitute. To deny the death of Christ is a perversion of the Gospel.

So, who's denying His death? Please clarify who you are aiming your comment to.

 

[Hammster]

To be fair, he's not saying that Christ didn't die. He's saying that He wasn't killed. This despite what scripture says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So what was the message Peter was trying to convey at Pentecost?

That the people wanted Christ dead because they viewed Him as a blasphemer, but that He was the Christ and to turn to Him to save them, which they did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To be fair, he's not saying that Christ didn't die. He's saying that He wasn't killed. This despite what scripture says.

I really don't understand how you aren't understanding what Jesus SAID. Yes, He died; spiritually for our sins, and physically, when His mission on earth was over. But He wasn't killed by anyone. Oh yes, the Romans did their best in that area, but they didn't kill Him.

Are you aware of how long people tended to live while hanging on a cross. Lee Strobel, author of "The Case for Christ" found sources that indicated that one person lived 9 days on a cross. But most lived for many hours. Even the 2 criminals were still alive when ordered to have their legs broken, to hasten death. Even Pilate was surprised to find that Jesus was already dead. That is a clue to the fact that the crucifixion didn't kill Him. Most people lasted a lot longer than either Jesus or the 2 criminals. And they would have lasted longer if their legs hadn't been broken.

Lee Strobel presented a very solid case for the fact that the crucifixion didn't kill Him.