Joseph Smith-History 1:18-20

[TasteForTruth]

In another thread, we got a little side-tracked talking about JS-H 1:18-20 (which was taking us off-topic), and never really finished the discussion. As such, I'm starting this thread to treat more specifically the statements and their meanings, reach and limitations of the verses noted:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.
​

If you were part of that discussion and had a point that you'd made that got lost in the thread please, re-post your material and comments, or give a summary of them, and we'll take up the baton again.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you for starting this thread.

It is evident to me that Mr. Smith stated that God told him that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Whether or not God actually said this is open to discussion, but can never be proven. What can be discussed is the direct statement against "all of the sects" which means, of course, every denomination in orthodox Christianity as well as unorthodox Christianity as it stood at that time. The statement clearly condemns these denominations and all who profess their beliefs (professors).

 

[A New Dawn]

TasteforTruth, can you link the thread this mini-discussion was in so I can go back and look to see if we finished talking about it? (Sorry, I don't remember which thread it as in. :o )

 

[Phantasman]

Thank you for starting this thread.

It is evident to me that Mr. Smith stated that God told him that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Whether or not God actually said this is open to discussion, but can never be proven. What can be discussed is the direct statement against "all of the sects" which means, of course, every denomination in orthodox Christianity as well as unorthodox Christianity as it stood at that time. The statement clearly condemns these denominations and all who profess their beliefs (professors).

It appears JS had the same feeling I got after seeking many doctrines and churches to find where God wanted me.

I found more spiritual completeness in the writings not available to Smith at the time. And it's ironic that much of what JS received tends to be Gnostic at the core.

Unorthodox is more a challenge to whether Orthodox is maintaining Christs truth rather than a bunch of heretics seemingly misleading Christians.

 

[TasteForTruth]

TasteforTruth, can you link the thread this mini-discussion was in so I can go back and look to see if we finished talking about it? (Sorry, I don't remember which thread it as in. :o )

http://www.christianforums.com/t7768326/

 

[A New Dawn]

Thanks! This appears to be where we stopped (you indicated you would return to address the appropriateness of the comment at all.)

OK, this was your final "word" in that discussion.

If you will note in my post above, I said

And just to be sure we know who "anyone who professes a creed" is -- it was all of established Christianity except for a couple of small isolated groups.​

So I acknowledged that there were some who might not have been included in the all-sweeping remark of Joseph Smith's. BUT, they were small and isolated. Christianity was much more rigid back then. They were just beginning to break the mold of previous years, so still, most of Christianity were creed professors. I still take issue with JS's statement. Creeds were useful in presenting what was in the Bible for those who were uneducated, poor, unable to read or afford a Bible. To make a blanket statement like what he said, IMO, proves that he had absolutely no idea of the purpose of creeds. Creeds are only statements of faith. The LDS have a statement of faith, do they now fit into the same category of people that God is disgusted with, who draw near to Him with their lips but their hearts are far from them?

Thanks for your detailed response. I understand your position and agree that, while still more sweeping than I believe is appropriate, it allows for some Christians to not be included in the group "professors of religion," which view I share.

Where we appear, now, to diverge, is in the appropriateness of the statement at all. And that is because you view the statement as having been made by a man, whereas I believe it was made by Christ. But even this does not, in an of itself, bear on the reality of whether the condition of Christianity, then, indicated a breach of covenant on the part of God, which is what we were discussing, with a view to shed light on the revelation vs. historical facts discussion. But I will have to come back to that later, after work.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7768326-4/#post64099965

 

[TasteForTruth]

Thank you for starting this thread.

It is evident to me that Mr. Smith stated that God told him that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Whether or not God actually said this is open to discussion, but can never be proven. What can be discussed is the direct statement against "all of the sects" which means, of course, every denomination in orthodox Christianity as well as unorthodox Christianity as it stood at that time. The statement clearly condemns these denominations and all who profess their beliefs (professors).

Thanks. I think it's worth looking at the specific conclusions you draw:

1. "'all of the sects'... means... every denomination in orthodox Christianity as well as unorthodox Christianity as it stood at that time"
2. "the statement... condemns [all orthodox and unorthodox Christian] denominations [as they stood at that time]"
3. "the statement... condemns... all who profess [the] beliefs [of any orthodox or unorthodox Christian denomination, as they stood at that time]"

Do you agree that I have accurately re-stated each point and its meaning, as you intended to convey?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thanks. I think it's worth looking at the specific conclusions you draw:

1. "'all of the sects'... means... every denomination in orthodox Christianity as well as unorthodox Christianity as it stood at that time"
2. "the statement... condemns [all orthodox and unorthodox Christian] denominations [as they stood at that time]"
3. "the statement... condemns... all who profess [the] beliefs [of any orthodox or unorthodox Christian denomination, as they stood at that time]"

Do you agree that I have accurately re-stated each point and its meaning, as you intended to convey?

Yes, that is my understanding of his statement.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Yes, that is my understanding of his statement.

Cool.

I was answered that I must join none of [the Christian sects], for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. (JS-H 1:19)
​

Your conclusion was that the above scripture applies to all of the Christian sects—every Christianity-based religion in the world—and to every person who professed the beliefs of any of these sects.

OK. Question. Do you agree that the following points, which are self-evident in Joseph's account, are important factors, and that they should not be divorced from one's interpretation of the revelation's intent, import or reach:

1. The revelation was given to Joseph Smith alone.
2. The revelation directly addressed a specific question asked by Joseph.
3. The question asked by Joseph was framed within the immediate context of his own experience.
4. In writing the account, of all the details that could have been included for the purposes of establishing the context from which to understand the vision and its contents, Joseph determined which contextual details to include.

 

[drstevej]

The First Vision is no more a revelation than the Easter Bunny. Your four points assume the events happened.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Cool.

I was answered that I must join none of [the Christian sects], for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. (JS-H 1:19)
​

Your conclusion was that the above scripture applies to all of the Christian sects—every Christianity-based religion in the world—and to every person who professed the beliefs of any of these sects.

OK. Question. Do you agree that the following points, which are self-evident in Joseph's account, are important factors, and that they should not be divorced from one's interpretation of the revelation's intent, import or reach:

1. The revelation was given to Joseph Smith alone.
2. The revelation directly addressed a specific question asked by Joseph.
3. The question asked by Joseph was framed within the immediate context of his own experience.
4. In writing the account, of all the details that could have been included for the purposes of establishing the context from which to understand the vision and its contents, Joseph determined which contextual details to include.

Although I agree with your four points, I also would not limit God's response to merely Joseph Smith's immediate context. One could easily say that it merely meant only those individuals in various churches who Joseph Smith had personally met. However, the response is phrased in very broad terms to include all religious sects and all of their professors (adherents).

A comparable situation might be seen in John 3 where Nicodemus starts out with a personal question which then leads Jesus to expound on the answer to include all of mankind. The immediate context was Nicodemus' question concerning his need to be born a second time, but the answer encompassed far more than just him and his context.

 

[A New Dawn]

OK. Question. Do you agree that the following points, which are self-evident in Joseph's account, are important factors, and that they should not be divorced from one's interpretation of the revelation's intent, import or reach:

1. The revelation was given to Joseph Smith alone.
2. The revelation directly addressed a specific question asked by Joseph.
3. The question asked by Joseph was framed within the immediate context of his own experience.
4. In writing the account, of all the details that could have been included for the purposes of establishing the context from which to understand the vision and its contents, Joseph determined which contextual details to include.

I'm not 7b, but I'll respond to this.

I believe that God does give us each "revelation" that is significant to the context of our lives, but that that revelation has to not conflict with previous revelation. I do not believe that stuff that God has told me necessarily should be considered revelation for another person. IF what happened in the first vision really happened (and that is a big "if"), I don't believe it was more than God talking to a young kid in language that was meant to help him in the situation he was in. If creeds were being used to bash other churches and believers, then I can see him being told that creeds can be seen as harmful to the body. Does that mean it was meant to be considered scripture to everyone? No, because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. The Bible was not available to everyone and using creeds was a way to teach Biblical doctrine.

 

[Moodshadow]

There have been so many versions of that "first" vision published by the LDS church now, each a little different from the previous ones, and each bearing the word "first," including the one now included in the official LDS scriptures. Why has the church felt the need to change it, for example, from the one that was in Smith's original handwriting (which, by the way, records his age at the time of the heavenly visitation as "in the 16th year of my age," not 14)? If it was truly revelation from God, would it not have been in a perfect state and need no revision?

 

[Ran77]

There have been so many versions of that "first" vision published by the LDS church now, each a little different from the previous ones, and each bearing the word "first," including the one now included in the official LDS scriptures. Why has the church felt the need to change it, for example, from the one that was in Smith's original handwriting (which, by the way, records his age at the time of the heavenly visitation as "in the 16th year of my age," not 14)? If it was truly revelation from God, would it not have been in a perfect state and need no revision?

Do the words that Heavenly Father and Jesus spoke to Joseph vary in any of these accounts? Because you seem to be questioning the validity of it as revelation. And it is only the message Joseph received that is revelation. Why not post two sources that show how the various version of the encounter give different messages from God and His Son.

 

[skylark1]

In another thread, we got a little side-tracked talking about JS-H 1:18-20 (which was taking us off-topic), and never really finished the discussion. As such, I'm starting this thread to treat more specifically the statements and their meanings, reach and limitations of the verses noted:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.
​

If you were part of that discussion and had a point that you'd made that got lost in the thread please, re-post your material and comments, or give a summary of them, and we'll take up the baton again.

I made the following post in the other thread. I have some interest in breaking down what was said in JSH-1, and comparing that to what contemporaries (or near contemporaries) of Joseph Smith had to say concerning those same phrases. They may not have been used in exactly the same way that they are today. Examining how the same phrases were used can give some insight into what was meant in JSH-1.

I would like to suggest yet another possibility concerning what was meant by "all of their creeds being an abomination in His sight." I don't remember this view having been discussed here in the past.

Some of Joseph Smith's contemporaries, most notably Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone, preached against creeds. Barton Stone wrote in the Christian Messenger (established in 1826) in 1832:

I thought, if Presbyterians had a divine warrant to exclude me and my brethren from the ministry, because we could not conscientiously receive and preach their peculiar doctrines, then must they have a divine warrant to exclude every other sect that does not receive and preach their doctrines. If they have not this right to exclude other sects, they had none to exclude us. — All sects claim this right; and were they to act up to it, they would be mutually excluded, by one another. Can this be of God? As much so, as the claims of the Pope to infallibility. I confess I see no difference, unless it be this, that the Pope boldly claims to be infallible; but the sects deny infallibility in word, but act upon the principles of infallibility; for they exclude from the kingdom (such they call their sectarian establishments) all who cannot receive and proclaim the doctrines of their creed. Would they dare do this, did they really think that their creed was not infallible?

There are two kinds of human authoritative creeds — one is drawn up in articles, and written or printed in a book — the other is a set of doctrines or opinions received, but not committed to writing, or printed in a book. Each of these kinds of creeds is used for the same purpose, which is to exclude from fellowship the man, who dares to dissent from them. Of the two, we certainly give the preference to creeds written and published; because we can then read them, and form a more correct judgment of the doctrines contained in them.

AN ADDRESS TO THE CHURCHES OF CH​

Although Stone objected to some of the creeds on the basis on content, he also objected to them because they were used to exclude and divide. While I admit that I do not think that LDS in modern time have interpreted the objection to creeds voiced in Joseph Smith's vision as being an objection to exclusion and dividing of the body of Christ, I wonder if that was what was found to be abominable (by either Joseph Smith or God, depending upon your view), rather than the theology expressed in those creeds.

It is just a thought, another view to consider. I am not convinced that this is what was meant, but I do think that it is possible, or at least that it could have been a factor.​

 

[Moodshadow]

Do the words that Heavenly Father and Jesus spoke to Joseph vary in any of these accounts? Because you seem to be questioning the validity of it as revelation. And it is only the message Joseph received that is revelation. Why not post two sources that show how the various version of the encounter give different messages from God and His Son.

It would be neither pertinent to the OP nor appreciated by the poster. However, it would certainly make for an interesting thread, all right, since there were so many discrepancies that bring Joseph Smith's credibility into serious question.

 

[A New Dawn]

Do the words that Heavenly Father and Jesus spoke to Joseph vary in any of these accounts? Because you seem to be questioning the validity of it as revelation. And it is only the message Joseph received that is revelation. Why not post two sources that show how the various version of the encounter give different messages from God and His Son.

These are the various accounts of the first vision.

1832 The Strange account (only account in the handwriting of Joseph Smith)

… thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the situation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that <mankind> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ …
marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath the wise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart …​

1834-1835 narrative by Oliver Cowdrey

“… On the evening of the 21st of September, 1823, previous to retiring to rest, our brother’s mind was unusually wrought up on the subject which had so long agitated his mind … all he desired was to be prepared in heart to commune with some kind of messenger who could communicate to him the desired information of his acceptance with God. “… While continuing in prayer for a manifestation in some way that his sins were forgiven; endeavoring to exercise faith in the scriptures, on a sudden a light like that of day, only of a purer and far more glorious appearance and brightness burst into the room … It is no easy task to describe the appearance of a messenger from the skies … But it may be well to relate the particulars as far as given — The stature of this personage was a little above the common size of men in this age; his garment was perfectly white, and had the appearance of being without seam. Though fear was banished from his heart, yet his surprise was no less when he heard him declare himself to be a messenger sent by commandment of the Lord, to deliver a special message, and to witness to him that his sins were forgiven, and that his prayers were heard;"​

1835 account given by Joseph Smith to a Jewish minister

“being wrought up in my mind, respecting the subject of religion and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong and I considered it of the first importance that I should be right, in matters that involve eternal consequ[e]nces; being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and bow[e]d down before the Lord … I called upon the Lord for the first time, in the place above stated or in other words I made a fruitless attempt to p[r]ay … I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed …”​

1838 account that became the official account

7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia.
8 During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.
9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to "ask of God," concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction÷not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being÷just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other — This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?
​

1844

When about fourteen years of age, I began to reflect upon the importance of being prepared for a future state; and upon inquiring the place of salvation, I found that there was a great clash in religious sentiment; if I went to one society they referred me to one place, and another to another; each one pointing to his particular creed as the "summum bonum" of perfection. Considering that all could not be right, and that God could not be the author of so much confusion, I determined to investigate the subject more fully, believing that if God had a church, it would not be split up into factions, and that if he taught one society to worship one way, and administer in one set of ordinances, he would not teach another principles which were diametrically opposed. Believing the word of God, I had confidence in the declaration of James, "If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him."

I retired to a secret place in a grove, and began to call upon the Lord. While fervently engaged in supplication, my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enrapt in a heavenly vision, and saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light, which eclipsed the sun at noonday. They told me that all the religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as His Church and Kingdom. And I was expressly commanded to "go not after them," at the same time receiving a promise that the fullness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me.

 

[A New Dawn]

So the answer would be, Yes, they do vary, as do the reasons for why JS said he went to pray, where he went to pray, how old he was when he went to pray, and who the personage in the vision was.

 

[Ran77]

So the answer would be, Yes, they do vary, as do the reasons for why JS said he went to pray, where he went to pray, how old he was when he went to pray, and who the personage in the vision was.

Thank you for the information.

 

[drstevej]

So the answer would be, Yes, they do vary, as do the reasons for why JS said he went to pray, where he went to pray, how old he was when he went to pray, and who the personage in the vision was.

I once asked a Christian attorney if it was hard to be a Christian an an attorney. He said, "no cause I tell the truth and I do not have to remember what I said."