• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

An atheists world (2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
How much research have you really done on the theory of evolution, from peer reviewed sources?

The tone of your questions suggests this;

Either you have done very little research, or you simply disregard the objective evidence because it does not fit with your faith.

you can go ahead and post peer reviews of the abiogenesis of DNA if you want, go ahead.

I have a fealing they will either be off topic, or not qualified.

but feel free, you'd be the first in 5 years of debate on this forum.

please, really,

do it.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So it would surprise you to learn that artificial DNA is a thing that has been being made for some time, huh?

it all depends

see if it's exnihilo, then thats true abiogenesis

because

ex nihilo nihil fit (nothing comes from nothing)

DNA doesn't come artificially from raw materials, I bet it's from similiar genetic material,

but go ahead and explain yourself, what examples you got?
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Meyer earned his Ph.D. in history and philosophy of science in 1991 at the University of Cambridge.[6] His dissertation was entitled "Of clues and causes: A methodological interpretation of origin of life studies."

how is steve out of His league discussing origin of life?

they don't have an origin of life phd, HE got the closest you can get.

PhD in the History & philosophy of science.

A total of 89 Nobel Prizes winners are affiliates of the university of cambridge

now I know your just beating around the bush trying not to discuss the evolution of the DNA.

Actually they do. It is in bicochemistry, not Earth Science or philosphy of science. You need a ton of chemistry and biology two topics that he did not specialize in.

Yes, Cambridge is a well respected school. Still I am sure that over 99% of their PhD's have not won a Nobel Prize. Meyer is definitely in the second group.

What you have done is a "appeal to authority error". Meyer is not an authority on the beginning of life.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then why berate scientists for not having an answer? You've just admitted that you don't have an answer either.

we don't claim for a fact that we do, you do.

in fact let me do you a favor and provide you with all the information that a good evolutionist would need, (just kidding)

but
talk origin.com has many claims as to knowing what in the world abiogenesis entails here are some of them....

Abiogenesis FAQs: The Origins of Life
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Actually they do. It is in bicochemistry, not Earth Science or philosphy of science. You need a ton of chemistry and biology two topics that he did not specialize in.

Yes, Cambridge is a well respected school. Still I am sure that over 99% of their PhD's have not won a Nobel Prize. Meyer is definitely in the second group.

.

you must be confused, earth science is not philosophy and history of science.

and biochemistry doesn't teach origins as one of its minors.

history of science does.

What you have done is a "appeal to authority error". Meyer is not an authority on the beginning of life

this is a nonsequitur, this doesn't follow.

after all how could you come to this conclusion after saying the guy comes from a school with 80 plus nobel prizes?

a PhD

all on a academic scholarship (rotary)

He's definitely authorized to talk on the subject of his dissertation.

sorry, try again.

this is a laughable conversation actually.

I really don't know why I am wasting my time here.

(thinking seriously of stopping this)

Anyway if you wish to actually start this debate, let me know.

until then research your position a little bit and maybe we can talk later.

look up talkorigin.com and get some ammunition or something.

I have asked for proof 5 or 6 times of your position, two times you provide arbitrary information about evidence, not evidence (definition of evidence which is arbitrary)

3rd time you question if I know what a DNA is

4th time you question something else

5th time same thing.

You can see why this is a waste of time?

YOU SIMPLY HAVE NO ANSWERS FOR THE QUESTIONS I GAVE FOR EVOLUTION,

now if you can admit THAT, we can move on to the next topic.

athiesm.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

toolmanjantzi

Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 1, 2013
2,505
28
Sundridge, Ontario
✟72,222.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Subduction Zone said:
Having a mosque in your country is no more a "skeleton" than having a church is.

There is really no difference between the two.

Says the unbeliever.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
you must be confused, earth science is not philosophy and history of science.

and biochemistry doesn't teach origins as one of its minors.

history of science does.

No, history of science may study different sciences, it does not study the beginning of life.

And you have no clue who is doing the actual research in this topic.

Why on Earth do you think it would be in history of science?
 
Upvote 0

CarlosTomy

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2013
473
20
✟725.00
Faith
Atheist
DNA has error correction in it. It's part of it. So please answer how all of this is here. It's got to be more involved than "DNA grows like ice crystals"

that is absurdly simplistic for error correction. plus it's digital. even athiests agree it is. That means that the whole program must be in place before it can work.

Interestingly the REACTIONS that are responsible for DNA and RNA and tRNA and mRNA etc. are all pretty straightforward, standard chemical reactions.

A lot of the "magic" of DNA is the transfer of base pairs. These base pairs are pairs in no small part due to the arrangement of an oxygen sticking off of them and a hydrogen that is on a neighboring N in the heterocycle.

This is the basics of transcription. A given set of base pair with complementary hydrogen bonding.

I'm not going to say that biochemistry is really simple, heaven knows that when I took biochem eons ago it had a lot of stuff to memorize but the basics are no too far off of how ice crystals form.

Ice crystals form the shape they do because the Oxygen prefers electrons more than the hydrogen in an H-O-H bond and so the bonds are polar and since the H2O is a "bent" configuration it has a slightly negative side and a slightly positive side and those H's are attracted to the O's....just like hydrogens on adenine are attracted to the oxygen on thymine in DNA!


if we can't manufacture DNA with all our mind powers from raw materials (not DNA) how is it that mother nature manufactured this software program?

But we DO understand DNA. To my understanding there is little that is mysterious about it.

Like an ice crystal? please.

Why is this bothersome to you? Every crystal of ice that forms in your refrigerator will form with the same crystallography. The same "INFORMATION" content is encoded into each one. Why is that? Because the atoms and the molecules obey strict physical laws.

DNA and biochemistry, being organic, may have much more complexity when viewing it from outside, but at their basic fundamentals they still follow very much the same chemical/physical rules. They function as they do because they can't do anything else.

you have to try a little harder than that.

When I can post pictures I will do so for you. But in the meantime perhaps you could tell us what the most baffling chemical reaction in DNA is that you can imagine.

A specific chemical reaction. Whatever is the most fascinating aspect for you, please tell us what the SPECIFIC chemical reaction that is at the core of it that is the most baffling to you to conceive of.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
we don't claim for a fact that we do, you do.

No, we don't. As scientists we acknowledge where our ignorance lies and thus where further research is needed. Creationists mask their ignorance by pretending that "God did it" is an answer.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
LIST OF FALLACIES EVOLUTIONISTS AND/OR ATHIEST COMMIT

Evolutionists often commit the fallacy of equivocation on the word
evolution. This word has a number of meanings. Evolution can mean
“change” in a general sense, but it can also refer to the idea that
organisms share a common ancestor. Either meaning is perfectly
legitimate, but the two meanings should not be conflated within an
argument. Many evolutionists seem to think that by demonstrating
evolution in the sense of “change,” that it proves evolution in the
sense of “common descent.”
Fallacy of equivocation

You might hear them say something like, “Creationists are wrong
because we can see evolution happening all the time. Organisms are
constantly changing and adapting to their environment.”

Non Sequitor: "Doesn't follow." Notice that many
times in debates when a particular perspective has no contributing
premises anymore, or supporting facts, they will resort to a certian
amount of word fillers(time wasters.) In order to fill in the time
gap during the debate, where they lack real factual support, or have
exausted theirs. typically THEY have used terminology not as a means of
relaying true information, but as a means of commiting a fallacy of an
appeal to authority of sorts. I do this too, but it is dishonest in
debate. It is best to define terms implicitly and not as a result of
showing off vocabulary to distinguish ones authority of lack of
authority. Simply knowing terminology does not in fact prove ones
authority. It may simply mean that one may like reading dictionaries
in his spare time.

The Fallacy of Begging the question, more commonly known as "circular
reason," or arbitrary logic:


When I was reading a book on logic sold by Ken Ham ministries it said this:
"In order to determine the truth value of a statement, it is necessary
to go outside the statment." - Introductory Logic- by D. J. Wilson,
and J. B. Nance - 2002 by mars hill textbooks.

Circular and arbitrary arguments are not useful because anyone who
denies the conclusion would also deny the premise (since the
conclusion is essentially the same as the premise).
So, the argument,

“Evolution must be true because it is a fact,”

-while technically valid, is fallacious because the arguer has merely assumed
what he is trying to prove.

again we must go OUTSIDE the statment to declare it true.

Arbitrary assumptions are not to be used
in logical reasoning because we could equally well assume the exact
opposite. It would be just as legitimate to argue,

“Evolution cannot
be true because it is false.”

It should also be noted that there are certain special cases where
circular reasoning is unavoidable and not necessarily fallacious.
Remember that begging the question is not invalid; it is considered
fallacious because it is arbitrary. But what if it were not arbitrary?
There are some situations where the conclusion of an argument must be
assumed at the outset, but is not arbitrary.2 Here is an example:

Without laws of logic, we could not make an argument.
We can make an argument.
Therefore, there must be laws of logic.

This argument is perfectly reasonable, and valid. But it is subtly
circular. This argument is using a law of logic called modus tollens
to prove that there are laws of logic. So, we have tacitly assumed
what we are trying to prove. But it is absolutely unavoidable in this
case. We must use laws of logic to prove anything—even the existence
of laws of logic.

[Self Defeating argument (see below)]

However, the above argument is not arbitrary. We do have a good reason
for assuming laws of logic, since without them we couldn’t prove
anything. And perhaps most significantly, anyone attempting to
disprove the existence of laws of logic would have to first assume
that laws of logic do exist in order to make the argument. He would
refute himself.

Most of the examples of circular reasoning used by evolutionists are
of the fallacious begging-the-question variety—they are arbitrary.
Consider the evolutionist who argues:

“The Bible cannot be correct because it says that stars were
created in a single day; but we now know that it takes millions of
years for stars to form.”

By assuming that stars form over millions of years, the critic has
taken for granted that they were not supernaturally created. He has
tacitly assumed the Bible is wrong in his attempt to argue that the
Bible is wrong; he has begged the question. Another example is:

“We know evolution must have happened, because we are here!”

This argument begs the question, since the way we got here is the very
point in question.

Watch for arguments that subtly presume (in an arbitrary way) what the
critic is attempting to prove. In particular, evolutionists will often
take for granted the assumptions of naturalism, uniformitarianism,
strict empiricism (the notion that all truth claims are answered by
observation and experimentation), and sometimes evolution itself. But,
of course, these are the very claims at issue. When an evolutionist
takes these things for granted, he is not giving a good logical reason
for his position; he is simply arbitrarily asserting his position."

above clip from:

Logical
Fallacies: The Fallacy of Begging the Question - Answers in
Genesis



or yet another fallacy: below from creationmoments.com

" A very common example of this comes in the form of, "There wasn't
enough water in the Biblical Flood to cover all the mountains" or
"Where did all the water go?"

What they are asserting is that there wasn't enough water to cover the
present-day mountains. This is fallacious because they are presuming
evolutionary time scales for the rates of the mountains forming – that
is, millions of years. This means that the mountains we have today
would have been nearly identical in height just 4,500 years ago at the
time of the Flood. This is begging the question because the premise of
their argument assumes long ages are true in order to argue that long
ages are true (and, thus, that the Flood could not have happened).

If, as creationists say, the mountains we have today formed rapidly,
starting during the Flood, then there is no problem with the amount of
water we have today covering the Earth. Thus, the Flood account only
seems inconsistent if you don't use all of the Flood model's premises.
Taken together, the Flood model explains consistently the evidence we
have in the geologic record.

above clip from
LOGICAL
FALLACIES OF EVOLUTION 101: BEGGING THE QUESTION | Creation
Moments


In conclusion:

feel free to add to the list your fallacies of evolution/athiesm whatever.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, we don't. As scientists we acknowledge where our ignorance lies and thus where further research is needed. Creationists mask their ignorance by pretending that "God did it" is an answer.

i Just quoted you favorite site, how they claim a lot of stuff re: abiogenesis.

are you saying talkorigins, are wrong?????????
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟48,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is probably the leading researcher in abiogenesis, please note what his major was in:

Jack W. Szostak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

he said this too:

“It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell’s machines…could have formed spontaneously from non-living matter,”
Jack Szostak 2009 scientific american

in which some creationist twisted His words, I didn't quote mine Him I just quoted a section of His quote without comment. You can believe what you will about what was said I just want you to know about it. Amd i don't care what else He says. This quote is words, words have meaning. If He didn't believe it He shouldn't have said it. Or what He can do is retract it publically. Period.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
he said this too:

“It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell’s machines…could have formed spontaneously from non-living matter,”
Jack Szostak 2009 scientific american

in which some creationist twisted His words, I didn't quote mine Him I just quoted a section of His quote without comment. You can believe what you will about what was said I just want you to know about it. Amd i don't care what else He says. This quote is words, words have meaning. If He didn't believe it He shouldn't have said it. Or what He can do is retract it publically. Period.

Actually that was a quote mine. You don't need a comment for a quote mine to be a quote mine.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.