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What Would Falsify the Flood?

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CabVet

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Let's correct this too, since you're moaning about my KJV literalism.

Genesis 2:19 [NIV] Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky.

Still say there's a problem, Cab?

Sure you do.

You know why?

Your problem is a spiritual one, not a scientific one.

That's just amazing. Now you are jumping to a translation made a few decades ago, abandoning your sacred KJV (the one supposedly perfect translation) to prove your point. Ok, let's go then.

Since you love quote mining (even the Bible) you conveniently leave out Genesis 2:18 (the verse immediately preceding the one you paste). Why? It is quite obvious, because in Genesis 2:18 the author says that man was alone (that means by himself), in every single translation there is out there, and that the animals are his help:

Genesis 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” NIV

Genesis 2:18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper that is right for him.” NLV

Oh, the horror, even in the Spanish language it is the same!!!

Genesis 2:18 18 Luego Dios el Señor dijo: «No es bueno que el hombre esté solo. Voy a hacerle una ayuda adecuada
 
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CabVet

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:doh:is right, why bring up plants when I specifically mentioned animals being created before Adam in Genesis 1 and after Adam in Genesis 2? Or are you really saying that God "planted" the animals? That would be too much, even for you guys.
 
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AV1611VET

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I can't begin to fathom what it must be like to have to think like a scientist, ED.

I'm so glad I got saved and God called me into another field.

I'd hate to have to take on a Christian as an unregenerated scientist.

I suppose the IGNORE button would be my sal... my relief.
 
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CabVet

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I can't begin to fathom what it must be like to have to think like a scientist, ED.

I'm so glad I got saved and God called me into another field.

I'd hate to have to take on a Christian as an unregenerated scientist.

I suppose the IGNORE button would be my sal... my relief.

I also can't begin to fathom what your brains must go through to reconcile those conflicts in order to justify your faith. But go ahead and IGNORE, either that or abandon the discussion as you have done many times before.
 
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kellhus

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I can't begin to fathom what it must be like to have to think like a scientist, ED.

I'm so glad I got saved and God called me into another field.

I'd hate to have to take on a Christian as an unregenerated scientist.

I suppose the IGNORE button would be my sal... my relief.

86d0c64b786fffb6353518d9f20d47ea.jpg


And the God I worship doesn't call Christians to ignorance and hateful fear of knowledge and the truth. Mach, why is the god you describe so small and fearful?
 
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AV1611VET

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I also can't begin to fathom what your brains must go through to reconcile those conflicts in order to justify your faith. But go ahead and IGNORE, either that or abandon the discussion as you have done many times before.
Here you are, Cab -- just for you.

It's not even KJV -- it's NIV.

Chapter 1 in black; Chapter 2 in red.

I did change the word "mankind" to "man" in a couple verses for clarity.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created man in his own image,

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”


28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
 
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EternalDragon

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:doh:is right, why bring up plants when I specifically mentioned animals being created before Adam in Genesis 1 and after Adam in Genesis 2? Or are you really saying that God "planted" the animals? That would be too much, even for you guys.

Sheesh. God planted a GARDEN and placed man there then created animals for the garden and had Adam name them. There is nothing out of place. Adam was alone because it was still day 6 and God had not created the woman yet. (Male and female he created them).

Gen. 2 = day 6 details....got it?
 
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HitchSlap

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Sheesh. God planted a GARDEN and placed man there then created animals for the garden and had Adam name them. There is nothing out of place. Adam was alone because it was still day 6 and God had not created the woman yet. (Male and female he created them).

Gen. 2 = day 6 details....got it?

Is that the day god decided to give Adam nipples too?
 
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mzungu

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Perhaps you are ignorant as to where Moses got the information for the books he wrote.
Let me see. Moses was given the "LAW" not Genesis. I was referring to genesis. No one was there to witness it so according to your reasoning it never happened.:liturgy:
 
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CabVet

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Sheesh. God planted a GARDEN and placed man there then created animals for the garden and had Adam name them. There is nothing out of place. Adam was alone because it was still day 6 and God had not created the woman yet. (Male and female he created them).

Yes, that is Genesis 1.

Gen. 2 = day 6 details....got it?

Sheesh. In Genesis 2 the order is different from Genesis 1. God first creates man (who is alone), and then he creates the animals as "helpers". He then looks surprised that no animal was a suitable helper and creates Eve to fill that role. Got it?
 
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CabVet

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Here you are, Cab -- just for you.

It's not even KJV -- it's NIV.

Chapter 1 in black; Chapter 2 in red.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created man in his own image,

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”


28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

No, that simply does not work, whichever translation you use. Genesis 2:19 fits between Genesis 1:25-26, and Genesis 2:7 fits between Genesis 1:26-27. It is crystal clear. Anything else is wishful thinking, unless of course you assume a non-literal interpretation (which I really don't think is the case).

Here, from your own translation:

Genesis 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

By "helper", the writer is clearly referring to the animals, and "man alone" and "will make" are clear statements that the animals were not made yet. If this is not clear from this verse, here is what comes after:

Genesis 2:20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

Recap:

Genesis 1 sequence: animals are made, men and women are made, everything was good.

Genesis 2 sequence: man is alone so "I will make a helper", animals are made, "no suitable helper was found", Eve is made.

Crystal clear conflict, two different stories, probably different writers.

P.S.: I know I overused the word "clear", but I just wanted to make the issue perfectly clear.

P.S.2: It is absolutely amazing to me that for this particular passage you do not use KJV.

EDIT. I could post dozens of examples like this, but here is what you say about other Bible translations:

The King James (so far), is the final edition.

ALL other versions can be traced back thru to the corrupted Classical Greek - not the Koine Greek of the common people.

And why do you use the NIV now? Because it is one of the very few translations where Genesis 2:19 was changed from this:

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field

To this:

Genesis 2:19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals

This change, by the way, as I outline above, does not solve the conflict.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, that simply does not work, whichever translation you use. Genesis 2:19 fits between Genesis 1:25-26, and Genesis 2:7 fits between Genesis 1:26-27.
You move it around to your satisfaction, and I'll move it around to mine; and we'll both let God break the tie when the time comes.

How's that?
 
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Split Rock

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I can't begin to fathom what it must be like to have to think like a scientist, ED.

I'm so glad I got saved and God called me into another field.

I'd hate to have to take on a Christian as an unregenerated scientist.

I suppose the IGNORE button would be my sal... my relief.

Actually, you know very well what it is like to think like a scientists. Every time you cross the street, solve a problem, balance your checkbook, you are thinking like a scientist. You are living "by sight" rather than faith. You do it most of the time. Its just when living by sight interfers with your religious dogma do you guys suddenly lean on "I live by faith unlike you science dudes." "Oh, and btw, your science is a religion, even though I keep saying you live by sight all the time."
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually, you know very well what it is like to think like a scientists. Every time you cross the street, solve a problem, balance your checkbook, you are thinking like a scientist. You are living "by sight" rather than faith. You do it most of the time. Its just when living by sight interfers with your religious dogma do you guys suddenly lean on "I live by faith unlike you science dudes." "Oh, and btw, your science is a religion, even though I keep saying you live by sight all the time."

Hmmm ... good point ... I must accede to your logic.

Would you say that, just as weight occurs when gravity is resisted; religion occurs when science is resisted?
 
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Split Rock

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Hmmm ... good point ... I must accede to your logic.
See, there is hope for you afterall!

"My logic is inescapable." - VIKI

Would you say that, just as weight occurs when gravity is resisted; religion occurs when science is resisted?
Weight represents the force on an object due to gravity. I don't see how that can be seen as "resisting" gravity. In any case, I think it is an over-simplification to say "religion occurs when science is resisted." rather, I would say that "science is resisted when it conflicts with religion." At least for some people.
 
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CabVet

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You move it around to your satisfaction, and I'll move it around to mine; and we'll both let God break the tie when the time comes.

How's that?

You are the one moving it around, and that is absolutely great. Comes to show to which extent you are willing to go to support your beliefs. I mean, I was fully aware you were willing to change science to fit your beliefs, but changing the Bible and using different translations in different situations? That's news to me.
 
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AV1611VET

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I mean, I was fully aware you were willing to change science to fit your beliefs, but changing the Bible and using different translations in different situations? That's news to me.

I explained why I did that.

So you would stop your pouting.
 
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Loudmouth

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Sheesh. God planted a GARDEN and placed man there then created animals for the garden and had Adam name them. There is nothing out of place. Adam was alone because it was still day 6 and God had not created the woman yet. (Male and female he created them).

Gen. 2 = day 6 details....got it?

Still waiting for you to address the topic.

If someone is going to claim that the evidence supports a recent global flood then they must also be prepared to show how a recent global flood is falsifiable. IOW, if any possible observation supports the flood, then no observation supports the flood. The flood needs to be falsifiable in order for people to claim that they have evidence that supports it.

Therefore, the question is simple and mainly aimed at YEC's who claim that a recent global flood is supported by the evidence. What features would a geologic feature need in order to falsify a recent global flood?
 
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