The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[VictorC]

I never really understood that SDA doctrine.

I doubt the Jews of today would understand it either

There's good reason for that.

The [sanctuary] doctrine is, to me, the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history. ... We personally do not believe that there is even a suspicion of a verse in Scripture to sustain such a peculiar position, and we further believe that any effort to establish it is stale, flat, and unprofitable. ... [It is] unimportant and almost naïve.

 

[FredVB]

I agree with you that you're describing a reversal of the meaning Jesus conveyed - but not on my part. What did He actually say? He stated that heaven and earth will not pass away until everything is fulfilled.

Don't forget that Jesus included the prophets in His statement. The alternate implication another member brought to the table suggests that no prophecy nor component of the Law will be completed and fulfilled until after heaven and earth melt away. That's impossible: prophecy can't come to fruition until after the prophecy already came to fruition, a catch-22 that can't happen.

The rite of atonement is a fulfillment of the Law that reconciles the entire congregation to God. Are you saying that this hasn't been accomplished in Jesus Christ? As Hebrews 9:15 says

I am not saying it wasn't. I was just saying how it was in Jesus Christ. But I am not reversing the word order for the other meaning. Till heaven and earth pass away means nothing of God's word passes away first, inclusive of Law and Prophets. Fulfillment, which includes the reconciliation, but that for the redeemed, is not the same meaning as termination, the old covenant giving way to the new was doing away with the shadows of the true substance, in Christ there was fulfillment of the sacrifice, the priests, and making clean that finished what there was for it in the old covenant. But this does not apply to those who are not redeemed, who remain in their sin under the consequences named in the Bible.

 

[Stryder06]

This is another vague allusion to the IJ, for which you never provided any citations or evidence for. I believe Mr Scratch pointed this out to you already.

I was making no allusion to the IJ. I was being quite serious about you studying the sanctuary .

That was answered in my last post. Here are the details of the Law's fulfillment:

Leviticus 16
32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Notice the use of perfect tense verbs denoting a completed action not to be repeated. This completion is affirmed in Hebrews 10:12-13 showing the next item on Christ's agenda: But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

A completed offering from the completed sacrifice looking forward to the second advent doesn't leave room to shoehorn 1844 in His agenda.

You need to copy a few more verses to show how the atonement was made. You're in the right spot, but you're not going far enough. What you showed was that on the day of atonement, atonement for the people, the sanctuary, and the priest was made. Do you believe Calvary was the fulfillment of the day of atonement?

 

[VictorC]

I am not saying it wasn't. I was just saying how it was in Jesus Christ. But I am not reversing the word order for the other meaning. Till heaven and earth pass away means nothing of God's word passes away first, inclusive of Law and Prophets.

Your post becomes confusing when you make comments like these, which don't reflect either what Jesus stated nor what I posted. I fully affirm the reliability of the law as a record we can draw on, just as Paul does from Romans 3:31 through much of chapter 4, where the author refers to the Law 430 years before the covenant from Mount Sinai existed to show how Abraham believed God's ability to deliver on His promises, and it was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

But you're attaching a meaning to 'passing away' that isn't germane to this.

When a prophecy is fulfilled, that completes it (consistent with the meaning of the Greek pleroo used in Mathew 5:17). The prophecy is finished and no longer predicts an event in the future.
The same is true with the Law.
Read on...

Fulfillment, which includes the reconciliation, but that for the redeemed, is not the same meaning as termination, the old covenant giving way to the new was doing away with the shadows of the true substance, in Christ there was fulfillment of the sacrifice, the priests, and making clean that finished what there was for it in the old covenant. But this does not apply to those who are not redeemed, who remain in their sin under the consequences named in the Bible.

Refer to what I wrote in my earlier post, as you omitted the pertinent Scripture quotes:

The rite of atonement is a fulfillment of the Law that reconciles the entire congregation to God. Are you saying that this hasn't been accomplished in Jesus Christ? As Hebrews 9:15 says,
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Our transgressions have already been redeemed from the first covenant, which was the Law. That is the primal fulfillment Jesus accomplished. He is no longer a Mediator of the first covenant, which He took away for the reason the two aren't compatible with each other: He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)

Once our transgressions under the first covenant have been redeemed, the pertinent Law has been completed: it is no longer able to impute sin to us, because we are no longer able to transgress the law. In effect, the law has lost its jurisdiction over God's redeemed children.

For fun sometime, compare what Jesus taught Peter according to Matthew 17:24-26 with Paul's comments in Galatians 4:1-7. Both of these passages affirms the limited jurisdiction of a given law (Jesus uses the example of the limited scope of the power to levy taxes). Both of these passages show that the law doesn't have jurisdiction over the King's children (or the Heir, in Paul's epistle). God's redemption changed how we are accounted, becoming God's adopted children, and no longer under the Law given exclusively to the children of Israel. Paul summarizes the Gospel in two verses, Galatians 4:4-5: But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

The fulness of time was the Law's fulfillment, that placed the tenure of the Law over God's adopted children in the past tense.

All of this addresses the redeemed. Opening the scope to include those outside God's redemption is not my intent.

 

[VictorC]

I was making no allusion to the IJ. I was being quite serious about you studying the sanctuary .

Others have mentioned how this is so vague that it comes down to meaning nothing at all. I agree with them.

You need to copy a few more verses to show how the atonement was made. You're in the right spot, but you're not going far enough. What you showed was that on the day of atonement, atonement for the people, the sanctuary, and the priest was made.

And it is the only rite contained in the Law that does this for all the people.

Do you believe Calvary was the fulfillment of the day of atonement?

What I believe isn't germane. What does Scripture say? The inspired author of Hebrews described atonement in the perfect tense that isn't to be added to. Romans 5 also describes the reconciliation we have through the death of the Messiah, which is a direct allusion to atonement (it is even translated 'atonement' in several English translation, including the KJV):

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

The consistent use of verbs in the perfect tense throughout this paragraph are too plain to ignore.

 

[Stryder06]

Others have mentioned how this is so vague that it comes down to meaning nothing at all. I agree with them.

It's not vague. Study the sanctuary. It's pieces, the materials, it's construction, and the work done in it. It's very clear.

And it is the only rite contained in the Law that does this for all the people.

But you're still short of showing how atonement was made. I didn't ask what day it was on. I asked how it happened.

What I believe isn't germane. What does Scripture say? The inspired author of Hebrews described atonement in the perfect tense that isn't to be added to. Romans 5 also describes the reconciliation we have through the death of the Messiah, which is a direct allusion to atonement (it is even translated 'atonement' in several English translation, including the KJV):

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

The consistent use of verbs in the perfect tense throughout this paragraph are too plain to ignore.

No one said we weren't reconciled to God. But that isn't what took place on the day of atonement. Again, you can't know what's going on in Hebrews if you don't understand the sanctuary service this book is referencing.

 

[VictorC]

It's not vague. Study the sanctuary.

Citations? Point? Both are missing. That's the meaning of 'vague'.

But you're still short of showing how atonement was made. I didn't ask what day it was on. I asked how it happened.



No one said we weren't reconciled to God. But that isn't what took place on the day of atonement. Again, you can't know what's going on in Hebrews if you don't understand the sanctuary service this book is referencing.

These questions were answered in previous posts. The epistle to the Hebrews is specific in addressing the rite I referenced already.

 

[from scratch]

I am not saying it wasn't. I was just saying how it was in Jesus Christ. But I am not reversing the word order for the other meaning. Till heaven and earth pass away means nothing of God's word passes away first, inclusive of Law and Prophets. Fulfillment, which includes the reconciliation, but that for the redeemed, is not the same meaning as termination, the old covenant giving way to the new was doing away with the shadows of the true substance, in Christ there was fulfillment of the sacrifice, the priests, and making clean that finished what there was for it in the old covenant. But this does not apply to those who are not redeemed, who remain in their sin under the consequences named in the Bible.

So if I put together what the collective group of pro law people are saying there are no redeemed people.

Another problem I've got is the conflict between Mat 5 and Heb 7 in your POV. One of them can't be right making the Bible unreliable.

 

[from scratch]

Your post becomes confusing when you make comments like these, which don't reflect either what Jesus stated nor what I posted. I fully affirm the reliability of the law as a record we can draw on, just as Paul does from Romans 3:31 through much of chapter 4, where the author refers to the Law 430 years before the covenant from Mount Sinai existed to show how Abraham believed God's ability to deliver on His promises, and it was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

But you're attaching a meaning to 'passing away' that isn't germane to this.

When a prophecy is fulfilled, that completes it (consistent with the meaning of the Greek pleroo used in Mathew 5:17). The prophecy is finished and no longer predicts an event in the future.
The same is true with the Law.
Read on...



Refer to what I wrote in my earlier post, as you omitted the pertinent Scripture quotes:


Once our transgressions under the first covenant have been redeemed, the pertinent Law has been completed: it is no longer able to impute sin to us, because we are no longer able to transgress the law. In effect, the law has lost its jurisdiction over God's redeemed children.

For fun sometime, compare what Jesus taught Peter according to Matthew 17:24-26 with Paul's comments in Galatians 4:1-7. Both of these passages affirms the limited jurisdiction of a given law (Jesus uses the example of the limited scope of the power to levy taxes). Both of these passages show that the law doesn't have jurisdiction over the King's children (or the Heir, in Paul's epistle). God's redemption changed how we are accounted, becoming God's adopted children, and no longer under the Law given exclusively to the children of Israel. Paul summarizes the Gospel in two verses, Galatians 4:4-5: But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

The fulness of time was the Law's fulfillment, that placed the tenure of the Law over God's adopted children in the past tense.

All of this addresses the redeemed. Opening the scope to include those outside God's redemption is not my intent.

Excellent!! very well written.

 

[from scratch]

It's not vague. Study the sanctuary. It's pieces, the materials, it's construction, and the work done in it. It's very clear.

But you're still short of showing how atonement was made. I didn't ask what day it was on. I asked how it happened.

No one said we weren't reconciled to God. But that isn't what took place on the day of atonement. Again, you can't know what's going on in Hebrews if you don't understand the sanctuary service this book is referencing.

I think the atonement for us all was completed the day of the resurrection. Read the record. During the day Jesus ascended into heaven and presented His blood to our Father and came back and allowing others to touch Him.

 

[from scratch]

You take the blood of Jesus and use it as cloak to cover up sin. Since you continue to knowingly refuse to obey the 10 Commandments, which define sin very definitely. That is what is commonly called "cheap grace". As James said: "faith without works, is dead".

There is no other way to be absolved of sin other than covering it with the Blood of Jesus. This in no way means moe can continue to sin with impunity. But you say all one has to do when they violate the law is say I'm sorry and go on about your business as though nothing ever happened. What then is the value of the law if punishment is so easily avoided? Why do you want variance from the law when you violate it? This is called grace which you put down. You make no sense.

What defined sin before the law? If it wasn't defined by your argument there was no such thing as sin before the law. This disagrees with the Bible.

James no where states or implies works of (keeping) the law are required for salvation.

 

[from scratch]

There isn't anything I could write that would cause the lurker to flee the seventh-day Adventist church more quickly than what you've contributed. We think more highly of the Blood of Jesus than you do.

Amen Amen!

 

[Leuko Petra]

According to Heb 7:12 the earth must have passed away if I understand your theology correctly. The only other choice I have is to take it the Bible is worthless dribble.

Brother, you have a misunderstanding of the two terms utilized and therefore jump to an errant conclusion based upon a faulty starting position, let us back up and look at Hebrews 7:12 [For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.] , Luke 24:44-48; Matthew 5:17, etc and what was written before are in perfect harmony -

Luke 24:44-48
Matthew 5:17 [and context]

Firstly, what "law" is Paul [Hebrews 7:12] discussing? The Ten Commandments, the "holy, just and good" Law? No. He is discussing the law of shadows and types given to [and "under"] the Levitical Priesthood ["...the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,)..." [Hebrews 7:11]].

Nowhere will anyone find that the Ten Commandments were given "under" the Levitical Priesthood. The Ten Commandments were known and given before the Levitical Priesthood was ever called into existence by God. In further consideration, there would not have been any need for such a priesthood of type without the transgression of the Ten Commandments in the first place. The Levitical Priesthood was called into existence as a type/shadow to point to that/Him [Jesus] which was needed for transgression of the "holy, just and good" Law [Ten Commandments].

Secondly, notice these words, for they are not in contradiction to the other.

[1] "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

[2] "...the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

How then can the scriptures be reconciled, since there is an 'apparent' [but not actual] contradiction? Simply, when we come to understand what is being said in each.

Christ Jesus says, that not even "one jot or tittle" [smallest portions, dotting of an I or crossing of a T] shall "pass from the Law" "till heaven and earth pass" and "till all be fulfilled". Well that obviously has not happened yet [no matter what anyone declares], just see Peter's words, or John's, etc.

Paul says by inspiration [Holy Spirit], that "...priesthood..." is "changed" and "the law" [laws of shadows and types given "under" the Levitical Priesthood, not the Ten Commandments which existed before it] also needed a "change", and he further speaks about a "change" on a particular typicalogical/shadowy law, when he says a "...disannulling of the commandment" [singular, "εντολης G1785 N-GSF"] "going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." [Hebrews 7:18].

Is God arguing with God? No. Is there a mistake? Again, and emphatically even, No!

For the laws of shadows and types are left written as they have been, not to be taken out of the scriptures, because they still serve several functions, a few of which are listed here.

[1] For any which seek to save themselves by any law [ceremonial/typological or other; it is an utter impossibility, as shown here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7764079-11/#post63970463 ], it remains for them, that they might remain under the curse, until they by God's grace repent, and give up on such a futile attempt and come to Christ Jesus and salvation by grace through faith [For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Galatians 3:10]

[2] For other aspects and examples were written for our admonition, learning, instruction in righteouness, correction, doctrine, reproof, etc, which are still needed by the whole world, especially the Christian, as they were given for a lesson book in picture [Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Corinthians 10:11 and All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16]

[3] For examples of what Jesus Christ Himself would do, in fulfllment of prophecy and typology, etc, in His perfect ministry and life, here on earth and in His ascension into the Heavenly, and in the earth made new to come, and into eternity future [texts which teach this, all could not possibly be listed here: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27

Matthew 1:22, 2:5,7,15-17,23, 3:3,15, 4:14,17, 5:17, 8:17, 11:13, 12:17,39, 13:17,35, 16:4,21, 21:4, 24:15,34, 26:18,54,56, 27:9,35; Mark 1:2,15, 13:4,14, 14:41,49, 15:28; Luke 1:20,38,70,76, 2:43, 3:4, 4:17-21, 9:51, 10:24, 11:29,50, 12:56, 16:16,29,31, 18:31, 19:44, 21:22,24,32, 22:16, 24:25,27,44; John 1:23,45, 5:39, 6:14,45, 7:6,8,40, 12:38, 13:18, 15:25, 16:4,25, 17:12,13, 18:9,32, 19:24,28,36; Acts 2:16,30, 3:18,21-24, 7:37, 8:28-35, 10:43, 13:22,23,27-41, 15:15, 17:2-3, 18:28, 26,22, 24:14, 26:22,27, 28:23; Romans 1:2-4, 3:21, 5:6, 13:11, 16:26; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Corinthians 6:2; Galatians 4:2-4; Ephesians 2:20, 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 1:1, 8:5, 9:9,10,28; 1 Peter 1:10,11; 2 Peter 1:21, 3:2; Revelation 1:3,22:10, etc.]

[4] For to shew that we still need those things, not in type/shadow, but in the reality Christ Jesus, which is the reality/substance [Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. Colossians 2:17 and Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9:9; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:10; But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11]

So the "change" was already foretold in prophecy and in type and remains there, it is not "passed away". We still need these things, not in shadow, but in the reality, as was already told from before. The type/shadow was never a permanent institution, but a temporary picturebook of the True, that the plan of salvation might be understood in the reality Christ Jesus.

We still need the blood of the sacrifice and the sacrifice, even the Lamb, etc, but not in animals, but in the True Lamb of God,etc - Jesus Christ. We still need a Highpriest ministering, but not of the house of Levi, but of the true, after the order of Melchizedek. We still need the Sanctuary/Temple, not of the earthly built by mens hands, but of the Heavenly Temple of which God Himself built. We still need the Day of Atonement service, not in the shadow of literal animals and once at the end of every year, but in the true Day of Atonement [even as there was the True Passover, the True unleavened, the True Firstfruits, the True Pentecost, etc..] by the Great Highpriest Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Most Holy.

So the law of needing a Great High Priest, etc is not passed away, but merely changed [as was foretold] from shadow to reality. Therefore the "commandment" [singular] was "disannulled", to take of the Levites a Highpriest, for they were merely instituted as a temporary shadow/type, and so we still need of a Highpriest, but after the order of Melchizedek, which existed before the Levitical one. The reason that the Levitical one was needed, are several, but in this point, we are merely looking at the type vs reality. They existed as a shadow, a miniature model, of what Christ Jesus would do and is even now doing. Why then do we still need to consider the model, even though we do not need a Levitical priest as the commandment of the model says to? See the previous points above in 1-4.

The sacrifice of animals had "weakness" and "unprofitableness", in that it could not actually "take away sins" [Hebrews 10:4], not that we could not still learn from the type in how Christ Jesus would be our sacrifice, and not that we do not still need the true sacrifice [of course we need Him!], etc.

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Ephesians 5:2

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Corinthians 5:7

etc...

Therefore, we may conclude that the law of sacrifice and priesthood did not "pass away", but was "change[d]" from shadow to reality as was necessary and as foretold.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*....
Brother, you have a misunderstanding of the two terms utilized and therefore jump to an errant conclusion based upon a faulty starting position, let us back up and look at Hebrews 7:12 [For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.]

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Corinthians 5:7

etc...

Therefore, we may conclude that the law of sacrifice and priesthood did not "pass away", but was "change[d]" from shadow to reality as was necessary and as foretold.

From what I know, the OC sacrifices and Priesthood passed away upon the prophecied destruction of OC Jerusalem and it's Temple and Sanctuary.
How much of the OT and NT prophecies were fulfilled at that event?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation, if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!.....................

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate,..............

For five days after the destruction of the Temple, the priests who had escaped, sat, pining with hunger, on the top of one of its broken walls; at length, they came down, and humbly asked the pardon of Titus, which, however, he refused to grant them, saying, that, "as the Temple, for the sake of which he would have spared them, was destroyed, it was but fit that its priests should perish also:" -whereupon he commanded that they should be put to death..............




.

 

[FredVB]

So if I put together what the collective group of pro law people are saying there are no redeemed people.

Another problem I've got is the conflict between Mat 5 and Heb 7 in your POV. One of them can't be right making the Bible unreliable.

I don't know what you are talking about. I don't know what another group of people see. I don't see a conflict between Mat 5 and Heb 7, and do not see that I suggested in any way that there was. I certainly do talk of there being redeemed people. Thank and praise to Yahweh God for that.

 

[from scratch]

Brother, you have a misunderstanding of the two terms utilized and therefore jump to an errant conclusion based upon a faulty starting position, let us back up and look at Hebrews 7:12 [For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.] , Luke 24:44-48; Matthew 5:17, etc and what was written before are in perfect harmony -

Luke 24:44-48
Matthew 5:17 [and context]

Firstly, what "law" is Paul [Hebrews 7:12] discussing? The Ten Commandments, the "holy, just and good" Law? No. He is discussing the law of shadows and types given to [and "under"] the Levitical Priesthood ["...the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,)..." [Hebrews 7:11]].

I err? Really? Paul and James both call the Ten Commandments the law. No where does the Bible separate parts of the law. The law is a single indivisible unit - read James 2. The only group I know that divides the law is the SDA folks. This is unbiblical.

Nowhere will anyone find that the Ten Commandments were given "under" the Levitical Priesthood. The Ten Commandments were known and given before the Levitical Priesthood was ever called into existence by God. In further consideration, there would not have been any need for such a priesthood of type without the transgression of the Ten Commandments in the first place. The Levitical Priesthood was called into existence as a type/shadow to point to that/Him [Jesus] which was needed for transgression of the "holy, just and good" Law [Ten Commandments].I think you need to read the record again and get your events straight.

Secondly, notice these words, for they are not in contradiction to the other.

[1] "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

[2] "...the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

How then can the scriptures be reconciled, since there is an 'apparent' [but not actual] contradiction? Simply, when we come to understand what is being said in each.

Christ Jesus says, that not even "one jot or tittle" [smallest portions, dotting of an I or crossing of a T] shall "pass from the Law" "till heaven and earth pass" and "till all be fulfilled". Well that obviously has not happened yet [no matter what anyone declares], just see Peter's words, or John's, etc.

Jesus gave full qualification to those words in LK 24:44 that you disregard. The fact remains that the law did change. So by your theology heaven and earth have passed away. The only other choice you have is the Bible isn't trustworthy and valid. Paul doesn't say some of the Bible is inspired. He says all and by God. Doesn't God know what He's doing?

Paul says by inspiration [Holy Spirit], that "...priesthood..." is "changed" and "the law" [laws of shadows and types given "under" the Levitical Priesthood, not the Ten Commandments which existed before it] also needed a "change", and he further speaks about a "change" on a particular typicalogical/shadowy law, when he says a "...disannulling of the commandment" [singular, "εντολης G1785 N-GSF"] "going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." [Hebrews 7:18].

Once again the law is a single indivisible unit. Paul isn't talking about part of the law. You have to divide the law to make your point.

Is God arguing with God? No. Is there a mistake? Again, and emphatically even, No!

For the laws of shadows and types are left written as they have been, not to be taken out of the scriptures, because they still serve several functions, a few of which are listed here.

[1] For any which seek to save themselves by any law [ceremonial/typological or other; it is an utter impossibility, as shown here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7764079-11/#post63970463 ], it remains for them, that they might remain under the curse, until they by God's grace repent, and give up on such a futile attempt and come to Christ Jesus and salvation by grace through faith [For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Galatians 3:10]

[2] For other aspects and examples were written for our admonition, learning, instruction in righteouness, correction, doctrine, reproof, etc, which are still needed by the whole world, especially the Christian, as they were given for a lesson book in picture [Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Corinthians 10:11 and All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16]

[3] For examples of what Jesus Christ Himself would do, in fulfllment of prophecy and typology, etc, in His perfect ministry and life, here on earth and in His ascension into the Heavenly, and in the earth made new to come, and into eternity future [texts which teach this, all could not possibly be listed here: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27

Matthew 1:22, 2:5,7,15-17,23, 3:3,15, 4:14,17, 5:17, 8:17, 11:13, 12:17,39, 13:17,35, 16:4,21, 21:4, 24:15,34, 26:18,54,56, 27:9,35; Mark 1:2,15, 13:4,14, 14:41,49, 15:28; Luke 1:20,38,70,76, 2:43, 3:4, 4:17-21, 9:51, 10:24, 11:29,50, 12:56, 16:16,29,31, 18:31, 19:44, 21:22,24,32, 22:16, 24:25,27,44; John 1:23,45, 5:39, 6:14,45, 7:6,8,40, 12:38, 13:18, 15:25, 16:4,25, 17:12,13, 18:9,32, 19:24,28,36; Acts 2:16,30, 3:18,21-24, 7:37, 8:28-35, 10:43, 13:22,23,27-41, 15:15, 17:2-3, 18:28, 26,22, 24:14, 26:22,27, 28:23; Romans 1:2-4, 3:21, 5:6, 13:11, 16:26; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Corinthians 6:2; Galatians 4:2-4; Ephesians 2:20, 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 1:1, 8:5, 9:9,10,28; 1 Peter 1:10,11; 2 Peter 1:21, 3:2; Revelation 1:3,22:10, etc.]

[4] For to shew that we still need those things, not in type/shadow, but in the reality Christ Jesus, which is the reality/substance [Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. Colossians 2:17 and Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9:9; [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:10; But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11]

So the "change" was already foretold in prophecy and in type and remains there, it is not "passed away". We still need these things, not in shadow, but in the reality, as was already told from before. The type/shadow was never a permanent institution, but a temporary picturebook of the True, that the plan of salvation might be understood in the reality Christ Jesus.

We still need the blood of the sacrifice and the sacrifice, even the Lamb, etc, but not in animals, but in the True Lamb of God,etc - Jesus Christ. We still need a Highpriest ministering, but not of the house of Levi, but of the true, after the order of Melchizedek. We still need the Sanctuary/Temple, not of the earthly built by mens hands, but of the Heavenly Temple of which God Himself built. We still need the Day of Atonement service, not in the shadow of literal animals and once at the end of every year, but in the true Day of Atonement [even as there was the True Passover, the True unleavened, the True Firstfruits, the True Pentecost, etc..] by the Great Highpriest Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Most Holy.

So the law of needing a Great High Priest, etc is not passed away, but merely changed [as was foretold] from shadow to reality. Therefore the "commandment" [singular] was "disannulled", to take of the Levites a Highpriest, for they were merely instituted as a temporary shadow/type, and so we still need of a Highpriest, but after the order of Melchizedek, which existed before the Levitical one. The reason that the Levitical one was needed, are several, but in this point, we are merely looking at the type vs reality. They existed as a shadow, a miniature model, of what Christ Jesus would do and is even now doing. Why then do we still need to consider the model, even though we do not need a Levitical priest as the commandment of the model says to? See the previous points above in 1-4.

The sacrifice of animals had "weakness" and "unprofitableness", in that it could not actually "take away sins" [Hebrews 10:4], not that we could not still learn from the type in how Christ Jesus would be our sacrifice, and not that we do not still need the true sacrifice [of course we need Him!], etc.

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Ephesians 5:2

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Corinthians 5:7

etc...

Therefore, we may conclude that the law of sacrifice and priesthood did not "pass away", but was "change[d]" from shadow to reality as was necessary and as foretold.

Great quantity of good swelling useless words to deceive. You leave out the fact the Christian isn't obligated to the covenant made with Israel. God promised this through Jeremiah and Jesus (also God) said the New Covenant is active which isn't like the one made with their fathers. God even goes so far as to say the Sabbath would cease.

 

[from scratch]

I don't know what you are talking about. I don't know what another group of people see. I don't see a conflict between Mat 5 and Heb 7, and do not see that I suggested in any way that there was. I certainly do talk of there being redeemed people. Thank and praise to Yahweh God for that.

Indeed there is no conflict in the Bible. There are those that bring conflict by their theology. And theology is what we're discussing here.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Secondly, notice these words, for they are not in contradiction to the other.

[1] "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

[2] "...the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

EGADS! The size of some of these posts, along with the fonts and colors, are playing havoc with my eyes!
[I may put him on ignore because of that very thing]

Looks like it was posted by someone from the "Rainbow" Coalition

[Btw, can I please get a response to this post? Thks]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7752117/#post63982700




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[FredVB]

Your post becomes confusing when you make comments...

When a prophecy is fulfilled, that completes it (consistent with the meaning of the Greek pleroo used in Mathew 5:17). The prophecy is finished and no longer predicts an event in the future.
The same is true with the Law.

Refer to what I wrote in my earlier post, as you omitted the pertinent Scripture quotes:

Once our transgressions under the first covenant have been redeemed, the pertinent Law has been completed: it is no longer able to impute sin to us, because we are no longer able to transgress the law.

All of this addresses the redeemed. Opening the scope to include those outside God's redemption is not my intent.

I am sorry about not understanding fully what you try to say. But I am not not confusing what is said in the scripture. Till heaven and earth pass away is what Jesus Christ said, and it is what is meant, nothing of God's word passes away. This does not misuse the meaning, it is the meaning. Therefore, fulfillment must mean something else. Christ being fulfilment of sacrifice, priesthood, and the way to be made clean is not doing away with it but Christ's effectiveness for that is what remains. What sin is remains too. To repent of sin, what is being repented of? Well God's word is remaining. Even if it is not imputed, you are still contrite and repenting, so there was sin that was a violation.

I was not eliminating scripture. I address what is posted, but I agree with the scripture passage, in a lengthy post I trim off things to which I am not responding, and respond to certain things you are saying.

I mention things said are for the redeemed, to be truly clear, at least for some others, talk of the commandments being done away should not applied as that suggests to those not even redeemed. Not that they are, but anything changed in the new covenant does not apply to those who are not and will not be redeemed, in Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by VictorC

Your post becomes confusing when you make comments...
​

When a prophecy is fulfilled, that completes it (consistent with the meaning of the Greek pleroo used in Mathew 5:17). The prophecy is finished and no longer predicts an event in the future.
The same is true with the Law.
​

I am sorry about not understanding fully what you try to say. But I am not not confusing what is said in the scripture. Till heaven and earth/land pass away is what Jesus Christ said, and it is what is meant, nothing of God's word passes away. This does not misuse the meaning, it is the meaning. Therefore, fulfillment must mean something else.
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Could it be the old heaven and land symbolizes OC Jerusalem/Judea and it's Temple? That is a view I am slowly coming to.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7752117/#post63982700
DESTRUCTION OF OC JERUSALEM AND TEMPLE

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new land.
For the first heaven and the first land did pass away, and the sea is not any more;
2 and I John, saw the holy City -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven,
made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;



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