The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[from scratch]

Let us continue reading, ok Brother?

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Jesus speaks of this "pass[ing away]", here:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35 [see also Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33]

Peter speaks of this:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

...and if we continue reading brother in Matthew 5, please notice with me the following:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19

What "these...commandments"? They are found in, "...the Law or the Prophets..."Let us look contextually at two...

"Thou shalt not kill..." Matthew 5:21

"Thou shalt not commit adultery..." Matthew 5:27

Where are these two commandments found that Jesus is making reference to? Jesus is citing a portion of the Ten Commandments [Exodus 20], which He Himself just said, not a single itsy-bitsy portion of them would pass away, neither did He come to "abolish".

Prophecy foretold:

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable. Isaiah 42:21

According to Heb 7:12 the earth must have passed away if I understand your theology correctly. The only other choice I have is to take it the Bible is worthless dribble.

 

[from scratch]

You're still not answering the question. We know Jesus came to fulfill the things written about Him in the law, prophets, and psalms. The question is what are those things?

Do you consider what you write? You give a clear answer then ask what they are. Amazing to say the least.

 

[from scratch]

You said it's in the bible. If that's the case you shouldn't have any problem finding where the bible says that Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

If you don't know, then it would be in your best interest to edit your statement and admit as much.

You employ the very same tactics. Why can't I do the same? Is it your goal to silence in frustration the opposition?

 

[from scratch]

We'd be talking about what needs to be understood. What in the law did He come to fulfill? What prophecies? It's easy to say "the law and the prophets" but it's another matter entirely when it comes to understanding that.

Where do you read anything about partly fulfilling anything?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Leuko Petra

Luke 24:44-45:
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Luke 24:44 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Luke 24:45

What then did Jesus mean by "all things"? It is that which was concerning Him, "while [he] was yet with [them]"?

"All" is subject to context, even as it "always" is.
​

​

That is what I always thought

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"all"
occurs 5482 times in 4577 verses in the YLT

Mat 24:
1And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the Temple,
2and Jesus said to them, "Do ye not see all these?
Verily I say to you, there may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down."

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover..........

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins..............

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and leveled with the ground.
And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should

"lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.)

most strikingly and fully accomplished ! --

This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ?
It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"



.

 

[VictorC]

According to Heb 7:12 the earth must have passed away if I understand your theology correctly. The only other choice I have is to take it the Bible is worthless dribble.

What I see is a reversal of what Jesus described in Matthew 5:18.
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Heaven and earth will not come to expiration until everything in the Law and the Prophets (included in the previous verse) are fulfilled. This is what I read.

The alternate message LP brings to the table is a total reversal of this. Nothing in the Law is to be fulfilled until heaven and earth pass away.
That catch-22 alone make Peter's prophecy of the elements melting away impossible to fulfill.

 

[Stryder06]

Do you consider what you write? You give a clear answer then ask what they are. Amazing to say the least.

I've not given an answer. I asked a question. If I ask you "What's in this pie" You're not going to say "Pie."

Thus if I ask, "What in the prophets, law, and psalms" You saying "The prophet's, the law, and the psalms" is incorrect.

You employ the very same tactics. Why can't I do the same? Is it your goal to silence in frustration the opposition?

My goal is to get an answer. I've given you answers to your questions. I haven't repeated them because it's worthless. This however is a new line of questioning that we have not gone over.

We agree that Jesus came to fulfill what was writen about Him. My question to you is what was writen about Him?

Where do you read anything about partly fulfilling anything?

I need you to put your thinking cap on. There are specific prophecies and writings that pertain to Christ and His first advent. Those are the things He came to fulfill. Trying to say "He fulfilled all the law, and all the prophets, and all the psalms" is an incorrect answer as the bible specifically says that He fulfilled those things that pertained to Him. Remember also that "Prophet's, Law, and Psalms" are generic terms for the books of the prophets, the books of the law, and the psalms.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Leuko Petra

Luke 24:44-45:..........................................
​

Originally Posted by Leuko Petra

Let us continue reading, ok Brother?
​

I understand your need to contort the verse out of its intended meaning.

No I didn't read all your long meaningless post trying to confuse the truth.

My mouse wheel gave out scrolling down his llloooonnnngggg posts

.

 

[FredVB]

According to Heb 7:12 the earth must have passed away if I understand your theology correctly. The only other choice I have is to take it the Bible is worthless dribble.

What I see is a reversal of what Jesus described in Matthew 5:18.
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Heaven and earth will not come to expiration until everything in the Law and the Prophets (included in the previous verse) are fulfilled. This is what I read.

The alternate message LP brings to the table is a total reversal of this. Nothing in the Law is to be fulfilled until heaven and earth pass away.
That catch-22 alone make Peter's prophecy of the elements melting away impossible to fulfill.

How is it seen proper that the word order is switched for this interpretation? Jesus says, "till heaven and earth pass away", and no one I am sure is saying that has happened, this interpretation says the meaning is "Heaven and earth will not come to expiration until", the different order giving the different meaning. That commandments do not first pass away does not make Peter's prophecy impossible. Further, those made righteous Yahweh will have outlasting that. Yahweh giving commandments showed sin, that being the violation of the commandments, which defined them so it will be known, and sin is always what was sin, Jesus spoke for the commandments, not teaching not to do them, but with teaching against those who taught others not to do as commandments tell us.

The fulfillment is in the sacrifice and the priestly role, and the way to be clean, that Jesus Christ is the answer for us, that we do not need to be subject to righteous judgment from Yahweh.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by from scratch

Where do you read anything about partly fulfilling anything?
​

Good point.

I need you to put your thinking cap on. There are specific prophecies and writings that pertain to Christ and His first advent. Those are the things He came to fulfill. Trying to say "He fulfilled all the law, and all the prophets, and all the psalms" is an incorrect answer as the bible specifically says that He fulfilled those things that pertained to Him.
Remember also that "Prophet's, Law, and Psalms" are generic terms for the books of the prophets, the books of the law, and the psalms.

What about the fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple in AD 70 as prophecied by both Jesus and the OT Prophets

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Great question!

I would have voted "mostly/partially fulfilled' but I instead voted "other". The reason being is that I think it would have been better to separate "mostly fulfilled" and "partially fulfilled" into separate choices. As I would have then voted "partially".

I don't claim to know. This is just my current understanding. I would like to understand the reasoning behind your position however. There seems to be plenty of verses in Matt 24 which appear to be still unfulfilled. What is your understanding on these verses?

View Poll Results: Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

34 23.13%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

59 40.14%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

21 14.29%

I don't really know

15 10.20%

Other [please explain]

18 12.24%


.

 

[VictorC]

How is it seen proper that the word order is switched for this interpretation? Jesus says, "till heaven and earth pass away", and no one I am sure is saying that has happened, this interpretation says the meaning is "Heaven and earth will not come to expiration until", the different order giving the different meaning.

I agree with you that you're describing a reversal of the meaning Jesus conveyed - but not on my part. What did He actually say? He stated that heaven and earth will not pass away until everything is fulfilled.

That commandments do not first pass away does not make Peter's prophecy impossible.

Don't forget that Jesus included the prophets in His statement. The alternate implication another member brought to the table suggests that no prophecy nor component of the Law will be completed and fulfilled until after heaven and earth melt away. That's impossible: prophecy can't come to fruition until after the prophecy already came to fruition, a catch-22 that can't happen.

Further, those made righteous Yahweh will have outlasting that. Yahweh giving commandments showed sin, that being the violation of the commandments, which defined them so it will be known, and sin is always what was sin, Jesus spoke for the commandments, not teaching not to do them, but with teaching against those who taught others not to do as commandments tell us.

The fulfillment is in the sacrifice and the priestly role, and the way to be clean, that Jesus Christ is the answer for us, that we do not need to be subject to righteous judgment from Yahweh.

The rite of atonement is a fulfillment of the Law that reconciles the entire congregation to God. Are you saying that this hasn't been accomplished in Jesus Christ? As Hebrews 9:15 says,
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Our transgressions have already been redeemed from the first covenant, which was the Law. That is the primal fulfillment Jesus accomplished. He is no longer a Mediator of the first covenant, which He took away for the reason the two aren't compatible with each other: He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)

 

[CFTerminator]

Our transgressions have already been redeemed from the first covenant, which was the Law. That is the primal fulfillment Jesus accomplished. He is no longer a Mediator of the first covenant, which He took away for the reason the two aren't compatible with each other: He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)

What you just wrote is a definition of "cheap grace" and "once saved always saved" theology with is a deadly deception of the Gospel. Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our Mediator as we speak, because their is still billions on people on planet Earth still sinning. If it wasn't for His blood we would be toast.

 

[VictorC]

What you just wrote is a definition of "cheap grace" and "once saved always saved" theology with is a deadly deception of the Gospel. Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our Mediator as we speak, because their is still billions on people on planet Earth still sinning. If it wasn't for His blood we would be toast.

I can't speak for others, but I can't reconcile your calling the precious Blood of the Lamb "cheap grace" with your observation that without it you'd be toast.

1 Peter 1
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

 

[CFTerminator]

I can't speak for others, but I can't reconcile your calling the precious Blood of the Lamb "cheap grace" with your observation that without it you'd be toast.

You take the blood of Jesus and use it as cloak to cover up sin. Since you continue to knowingly refuse to obey the 10 Commandments, which define sin very definitely. That is what is commonly called "cheap grace". As James said: "faith without works, is dead".

 

[VictorC]

You take the blood of Jesus and use it as cloak to cover up sin. Since you continue to knowingly refuse to obey the 10 Commandments, which define sin very definitely. That is what is commonly called "cheap grace". As James said: "faith without works, is dead".

There isn't anything I could write that would cause the lurker to flee the seventh-day Adventist church more quickly than what you've contributed. We think more highly of the Blood of Jesus than you do.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by VictorC

Our transgressions have already been redeemed from the first covenant, which was the Law. That is the primal fulfillment Jesus accomplished. He is no longer a Mediator of the first covenant, which He took away for the reason the two aren't compatible with each other: He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)
​

What you just wrote is a definition of "cheap grace" and "once saved always saved" theology with is a deadly deception of the Gospel.
Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our Mediator as we speak, because their is still billions on people on planet Earth still sinning.
If it wasn't for His blood we would be toast.

Then why the need for the Jews to have a new Temple and Sanctuary built if we are of the heavenly Sanctuary. not of the Mosaic Sanctuary?

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"sanctuary"
occurs 197 times in 186 verses in the YLT

Rev 11:1
And there was given to me a reed, like to a rod, and the Messenger stood, saying, "Rise! and measure! the Sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it;


Rev 11:19
And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary,
and there did come lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and great hail.






.

 

[Stryder06]

The rite of atonement is a fulfillment of the Law that reconciles the entire congregation to God. Are you saying that this hasn't been accomplished in Jesus Christ? As Hebrews 9:15 says,
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Our transgressions have already been redeemed from the first covenant, which was the Law. That is the primal fulfillment Jesus accomplished. He is no longer a Mediator of the first covenant, which He took away for the reason the two aren't compatible with each other: He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (Hebrews 10:9)

This is the reason why you need to stop arguing around here and just go back and study the sanctuary. How was the congretation reconcilled to God Victor?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is the reason why you need to stop arguing around here and just go back and study the sanctuary.
How was the congretation reconcilled to God Victor?

And you need to step down off yer high "sabbatarian" horse.

Instead of throwing ad-hominems attacks toward another member, why not just address the post






.

 

[VictorC]

This is the reason why you need to stop arguing around here and just go back and study the sanctuary.

This is another vague allusion to the IJ, for which you never provided any citations or evidence for. I believe Mr Scratch pointed this out to you already.

How was the congretation reconcilled to God Victor?

That was answered in my last post. Here are the details of the Law's fulfillment:

Leviticus 16
32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Notice the use of perfect tense verbs denoting a completed action not to be repeated. This completion is affirmed in Hebrews 10:12-13 showing the next item on Christ's agenda: But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

A completed offering from the completed sacrifice looking forward to the second advent doesn't leave room to shoehorn 1844 in His agenda.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Stryder06

How was the congretation reconcilled to God Victor?
​

According to the SDAs or mainstream Christianity
This is another vague allusion to the IJ, for which you never provided any citations or evidence for. I believe Mr Scratch pointed this out to you already.



That was answered in my last post. Here are the details of the Law's fulfillment:

Leviticus 16
32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Notice the use of perfect tense verbs denoting a completed action not to be repeated. This completion is affirmed in Hebrews 10:12-13 showing the next item on Christ's agenda: But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

A completed offering from the completed sacrifice looking forward to the second advent doesn't leave room to shoehorn 1844 in His agenda.

I never really understood that SDA doctrine.

I doubt the Jews of today would understand it either

http://www.christianforums.com/t7410772/
Seventh-day Adventists say Jesus started the day of atonement in 1844.

EDIT

Some of the material in this post is derived from an earlier version of my website on the sanctuary. Since folks were asking about the link I am posting a revised version of the link. Some of the material is now different on the site, however. You can review the current site at

www.adventistsanctuary.com

The Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches that Jesus began to fulfill the day of atonement cleansing in the sanctuary in 1844. Here is a statement regarding this from one of their fundamental beliefs:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.........

*snip*............

Jesus made purification for sins then sat down. He made provision for all the world by His death, entry and purification.

This is a straight-forward fulfilling of the type of the day of atonement cleansing that happened in the temple.

See part 2 below

.