Icons and the last few years on CF

[yedida]

Now you calm down there, stop getting so itchey, you'll scare them away.



Sounds good but they must be armed, .357 and above, using 'wadcutters'.

OK, ok Uzzis and Mac's too just remember 'low left high right'.

Maybe an M2HB? Maybe a nice LAWS 40mm.?

We don' need no estinkin' permit!

...and let 'em have at it...

I'll be in the main forum talking about what's important.

 

[dodari]

...and let 'em have at it...

I'll be in the main forum talking about what's important.

Amen to that.

If it ever actually comes to that you can depend on me to be hunkered down in my bunker hiding under my bed. I am reminded of that great Italian war hero, Chicken Tetrazini.

 

[Tishri1]

My wish would be to have a main forum that is only Torah positive and only encourages Torah practice in a positive way, accepts all who feel this desire and doesn't condemn those who don't

The only restriction is no debate or negative posts especially about who should be doing Torah as that would be negative. All can do Torah is all we need to say on that matter .

No negative post on both Torah and who should practice Torah

This should almost satisfy everyone as no one who lives a torah positive life will feel discriminated against or have to defend their lifestyle and beliefs and those who don't care to do all , can participate positively in threads of their choosing , being careful not to be negative towards Torah and those who's practice goes beyond theirs

Ok soooo tell me what i missed, what are some unforeseen issues with this plan?

Honestly, I like the challenge now and then. As long as non-MJ's or anti-Torah posters aren't allowed to overpower the Observant MJ population. Isn't that really what we all are looking for? The problem, it seems to me, is that we are trying to write black-and-white rules to express and enforce a concept that lies on a graduated spectrum. As soon as we say "affirming Torah" (or some such phrasing), someone will want to argue over "how much Torah".



But, Tish! Those are the only two questions that count!

Honestly...

• "Who can, and can't, observe?"
  
  That is driven by the broader MJ world, unfortunately. This is where our "leaders"--Dauerman, Schiffman, Kinzer, Fruchtenbaum, et al--set a pace that we just cannot ignore.

• "Who is, and isn't, MJ?"
  
  This is a matter of history. Prior to the mid-80's, most Jewish believers identified as Christians who were of Jewish/Hebrew descent. The normal nomenclature was "Hebrew Christian" or "Jewish Christian".
  
  Those of us who lived through this period took note of a definite time when the terminology of "Messianic Judaism" was invoked. Dauerman even wrote a major paper on the change, entitled, "Judaism as Genus, Messianic as Species". The point of the discussion back then was that, in earlier times, "Christian" was the genus, while "Jewish" or "Hebrew" was the species. In the newer perspective, we started working towards a Judaism, of which the Messianic variety was the species of Judaism being practiced.

Since then, there have been two very clear sets of terminology. The problem is, those who were not around 20-30 years ago have not been brought up to speed on the terms.

It is not an insult, or judgment of any kind, to identify a Jew who follows church teaching as "Hebrew Christian". It is merely a statement of fact. Especially for those who accept the Christian teaching that Messiah has made Torah observance moot for believers today.

Likewise, it is not uniquely complimentary to identify with the term "Messianic Judaism". It is a factual label, indicating that the bearer identifies with the Jewish community, including Torah observance and interaction with rabbinic and cultural ideals. Such a person follows "Judaism as genus" and "Messianic as species".

Are there some who view themselves as Messianic, but live in the church world? Well, we have a couple professional clergymen here who say that is exactly what they do. I suppose if they claim that is their calling, then we have to take their word for it. Personally, I would have integrity issues trying to play that game. For non-leaders, I can testify from observing hundreds of congregants over the years, that it is nearly impossible to lead such a dual life. One eventually falls over into one category or the other--Messianic or Hebrew-Christian, Judaism or Christian.

But all that aside, there are certainly many Biblical/spiritual topics that can be discussed without stepping on the land mines of identity issues... I think... Maybe...? Aren't there?

Hmmmmmm... let's see:
- a Jewish book...
- written by Jewish authors...
- about the God of the Jews...
- whose chose the Jews...
- exiled the Jews...
- promises to return/redeem the Jews...
- sent a Jewish Messiah...
- to take the Jewish throne...
- to set up a new Jewish-based planet-wide monarchy...

Naaaaah... no identity issues there.

 

[dodari]

My wish would be to have a main forum that is only Torah positive and only encourages Torah practice in a positive way, accepts all who feel this desire and doesn't condemn those who don't

The only restriction is no debate or negative posts especially about who should be doing Torah as that would be negative. All can do Torah is all we need to say on that matter .

No negative post on both Torah and who should practice Torah

This should almost satisfy everyone as no one who lives a torah positive life will feel discriminated against or have to defend their lifestyle and beliefs and those who don't care to do all , can participate positively in threads of their choosing , being careful not to be negative towards Torah and those who's practice goes beyond theirs

Ok soooo tell me what i missed, what are some unforeseen issues with this plan?

Well ok, maybe.

Suppose, just suppose, that some mean ol' Phillistines or Amalekites, Stalagmites or Stalactites(gasp) come wandering in and don't abide by the fore stated strictures. What then? Kiss 'em? Sing Kum-by-yeehaw? Sing 'Blessed Assurance'? Sit passively by whilst they run a rampage?

Cold day in Hell!!!!

What then?

We all know it will happen.

 

[Avodat]

Almost none of the visitors actually see the sticky with the SoP - that is a real problem to us, because by the time we refer them to it, it is too late! But then some just ignore us and, in spite of reports, nothing is done about it

Make the sticky title to stand out in bold red and say something like: READ THIS BEFORE ENTERING THIS FORUM; we know it is the SoP but most others have no idea what the current title even means! That would be a start, and is the easiest, as you just need to change the text and colour!

Then remove the word 'Member' from the SoP - because most visitors take it as being a 'member of CF', not of these fora - so that it reads:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action".

Re our brothers / sisters who are Jews, posting. I am happy for them to have full posting rights but it would have to be, for them, outside the SoP because they could not agree to believe in Yeshua and I would hate to force them to tell a lie by pretending they do. If we can overcome this with our regular Jewish posters by including something in the SoP, I would really welcome their input in every way. Mods would need to be aware of this because I guess visitors will report them much more quickly that we would

 

[dodari]

Almost none of the visitors actually see the sticky with the SoP - that is a real problem to us, because by the time we refer them to it, it is too late!

Place a simple bit of text at the head of these fora (in bold red) telling posters to read the SoP before posting and provide a link to it or just make the sticky title to stand out in bold red - that would be a start and is the easiest as you just need to change the colour!

Then remove the word 'Member' from the SoP - because most visitors take it as being a 'member of CF', not of these fora - so that it reads:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action".

Re our brothers / sisters who are Jews, posting. I am happy for them to have full posting rights but it would have to be, for them, outside the SoP because they could not agree to believe in Yeshua and I would hate to force them to tell a lie by pretending they do. If we can overcome this with our regular Jewish posters by including something in the SoP, I would really welcome their input in every way. Mods would need to be aware of this because I guess visitors will report them much more quickly that we would

Great post.

I suggest Avodat's clause, which I highlighted in brown, be incorporated verbatim.

As pertains to our Jewish brothers and sisters, which I highlighted in blue, I am heartily in accord with Avodat's sentiments on the subject. We would be in a vacuum much of the time without their much valued contributions. Please seriously consider the proper words to facilitate this.

Thanks.

 

[dnc101]

Almost none of the visitors actually see the sticky with the SoP - that is a real problem to us, because by the time we refer them to it, it is too late!

That's a problem. Sure. But dodari is correct; the larger problem is those who just don't care! Put it in big, bold day-glow orange letters on every page, and a.) you'll still have to tell most posters, and they'll probably settle down after you tell them about 6-8 more times; and b.) there are still going to be those who come for the specific purpose of teaching us the true faith or disrupting the forum. They won't care or heed anything short of an admin action.

Re our brothers / sisters who are Jews, posting. I am happy for them to have full posting rights but it would have to be, for them, outside the SoP because they could not agree to believe in Yeshua and I would hate to force them to tell a lie by pretending they do. If we can overcome this with our regular Jewish posters by including something in the SoP, I would really welcome their input in every way. Mods would need to be aware of this because I guess visitors will report them much more quickly that we would

Again, allowing another faith group unlimited posting privileges can be a recipe for disaster. You may attract some who even the regular Jewish members would not like.

Better to relax the restrictions where they can answer questions without fear of being censured. Then either give them their own forum, or convert one of our sub-forums so they have a place to post openly, free from those "Christians" who might want to harass them. Then if any anti-missionary types came on there, they could deal with it or report it for action, free from any stigma that might be attached if we get in the middle of the "discussions."

That actually would have other advantages, as both faith groups ask questions across the intra-fora lines while being subject to report if we (or our own "anti" bunch) get out of line.

Separate but equal! And again, as dodari suggested, arm both camps (with a report button and a real ornery type mod on the other end, just waiting to pounce!) "An armed society is a polite society," as dear old mum always said.

Dan C
edit: I have been a proponent of expanding posting privileges for Jewish posters. But giving both unlimited privileges on the same forum is a recipe for problems, as it may attract more extremists from both camps. And there will be the cases of hurt feelings getting out of control. And if you really want to see just how well mixing the two works, come over to my house for an evening of enlightenment, excitement- and possibly danger if you get in the crossfire!

edit-the-edit: and I agree with you about the elephant in the room being Yeshua. We can't expect them to "convert" just to post here! Another advantage to their having a forum of their own. Just a thought.

 

[Avodat]

Great post.

I suggest Avodat's clause, which I highlighted in brown, be incorporated verbatim.

As pertains to our Jewish brothers and sisters, which I highlighted in blue, I am heartily in accord with Avodat's sentiments on the subject. We would be in a vacuum much of the time without their much valued contributions. Please seriously consider the proper words to facilitate this.

Thanks.

I have changed a part of my original post a bit from how it is in your quote - I used to work in forming international legal contracts so I have to continually revise and reduce the number of words to a minimum and remove any contestable parts! You know what I mean! The change I have made is how the Sticky is presented - the bits you commend (for which many thanks) are unaltered.

 

[dodari]

I have changed a part of my original post a bit from how it is in your quote - I used to work in forming international legal contracts so I have to continually revise and reduce the number of words to a minimum and remove any contestable parts! You know what I mean! The change I have made is how the Sticky is presented - the bits you commend (for which many thanks) are unaltered.

I checked the change. Looks good!

I do hope our traditional Jewish colleagues can be included successfully. Being an engineer I do Calculus, passing the one required semestre of English I nearly died. Writing best done by y'all that have the talent, not by a techno-hack.

For me now to you all, G'night, I must say. I'm pooped.

amba.

 

[daq]

Well what does everyone else think about letting them teach too?

The only thing i care about is that we get away from who can and cant observe and who is and isn't MJ

How can a board dedicated to Messianic Judaism not also allow unbelieving Jews to have a voice? If there are those who would like to have a greater voice and to teach, (and think I know of at least one current poster here that might, and I would like to see it) then it should be made possible in one way or another, however it is that everyone decides the rules should be designed, or whether they need to be amended here in this board, or whatever. I really have no problem with debates either, even with "mainstream" thinkers who lean toward MJ so long as everyone observes the rules. Likewise even if the current rules and SOP need to be changed then change them but please make them clear regarding icons, signatures, members, who can post what and where, etc., etc., so that everyone knows where and when the Tishri1 hammer comes down.

 

[Avodat]

How can a board dedicated to Messianic Judaism not also allow unbelieving Jews to have a voice? If there are those who would like to have a greater voice and to teach, (and think I know of at least one current poster here that might, and I would like to see it) then it should be made possible in one way or another, however it is that everyone decides the rules should be designed, or whether they need to be amended here in this board, or whatever. I really have no problem with debates either, even with "mainstream" thinkers who lean toward MJ so long as everyone observes the rules. Likewise even if the current rules and SOP need to be changed then change them but please make them clear regarding icons, signatures, members, who can post what and where, etc., etc., so that everyone knows where and when the Tishri1 hammer comes down.

In my post #365 I wrote about the SoP. A part of what I wrote is:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action".

Could we add to that: "Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and not teach or debate against it. Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action, as is the case for MJ's."

Any agreement on those two (plus the bit about the sticky in post #365)?

 

[daq]

In my post #365 I written about the SoP. A part of what I wrote is:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action".

Could we add to that: "Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and not teach or debate against it. Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action, as is the case for MJ's."

Any agreement on those two (plus the bit about the sticky in post #365)?

Yes I saw your post on the sticky and also liked it. As for Non-Messianic Jews; howsoever it should be worked out, I think it should be worked out. The only thing I saw concerning other things mentioned was something about a debate board called "Torah Bashers" or something of that nature. I don't mind the idea of the board but would not call it by that name because some might find the name itself offensive, (myself included). If it was my choice I would vote for something more along the lines of "Torah Wars", "Torah Warriors", or something like that, (but of course you realize anyone who enters such an "arena" better know his or her Torah and how to handle the GT crowd right? We might should be careful what we wish for).

 

[Avodat]

Yes I saw your post on the sticky and also liked it. As for Non-Messianic Jews; howsoever it should be worked out, I think it should be worked out. The only thing I saw concerning other things mentioned was something about a debate board called "Torah Bashers" or something of that nature. I don't mind the idea of the board but would not call it by that name because some might find the name itself offensive, (myself included). If it was my choice I would vote for something more along the lines of "Torah Wars", "Torah Warriors", or something like that, (but of course you realize anyone who enters such an "arena" better know his or her Torah and how to handle the GT crowd right? We might should be careful what we wish for).

I think Torah Bashers, or similar, is just inviting trouble - won't take long before they discover us! Anyway, why invite Jew-bashers in here? There are enough in real life

 

[daq]

I think Torah Bashers, or similar, is just inviting trouble - won't take long before they discover us!

I have no doubt we are "discovered" and there are some already salivating.

 

[Avodat]

I have no doubt we are "discovered" and there are some already salivating.

I agree - that is why we need a robust SoP to protect ourselves. Tishri will not see this thread for a while yet to make her decision.

 

[daq]

Anyway, why invite Jew-bashers in here? There are enough in real life

Not sure if you mean this in conjunction with the board name suggestion of "Torah Bashers" or not but I do see the possible correlation in the minds of some people. Either way that is already a Forum-wide violation if such a thing happens. What I meant by a board having the name "Torah Bashers" being offensive is that to me this simply sounds almost, well, no I will not even say it because of who innocently suggested the name, (as a matter of fact that is why I made the statement to you instead even though it was not your suggestion).

 

[Avodat]

Not sure if you mean this in conjunction with the board name suggestion of "Torah Bashers" or not but I do see the possible correlation in the minds of some people. Either way that is already a Forum-wide violation if such a thing happens. What I meant by a board having the name "Torah Bashers" being offensive is that to me this simply sounds almost, well, no I will not even say it because of who innocently suggested the name, (as a matter of fact that is why I made the statement to you instead even though it was not your suggestion).

I was thinking of the Church going Law / Jew haters who lurk here on CF.

 

[mishkan]

My wish would be to have a main forum that is only Torah positive and only encourages Torah practice in a positive way, accepts all who feel this desire and doesn't condemn those who don't

The biggest hindrance I see is those who assert, "I am Messianic and my theology says that the Torah is irrelevant to being Messianic." This has been stated by more than one person flying the scroll icon here. The idea has also been stated by proxy, through reference links to outsiders (e.g., Arnold Fruchtenbaum) who are not part of this forum.

Some posters just don't care about the rules, and only take our rules as a challenge to "straighten us out" by claiming our rules are unreasonable, or contrary to the majority of MJ.

The only restriction is no debate or negative posts especially about who should be doing Torah as that would be negative. All can do Torah is all we need to say on that matter .

No negative post on both Torah and who should practice Torah

I'd like it. But such a rule must be enforced. Contrary posters need to be immediately warned, and ejected after repeated warnings. If "Maxell's silver hammer" doesn't land on their head right away, they grow emboldened. It is like smacking a puppy on the nose right away after he chews your shoes--there needs to be immediate consequence, or he won't get the relationship between cause and effect.

This should almost satisfy everyone as no one who lives a torah positive life will feel discriminated against or have to defend their lifestyle and beliefs and those who don't care to do all, can participate positively in threads of their choosing , being careful not to be negative towards Torah and those who's practice goes beyond theirs

If I may, this phrase I've highlighted might represent a misunderstanding of some sort. I don't perceive that we have ever had issues about level of observance, or which mitzvot constitute acceptable observance. That sort of difference actually provides just enough dynamic tension to make for good discussions. Rather, the arguments involve those whose theology informs them that the Torah, en toto, has been rendered nullified, void, and no longer binding on any follower of Yeshua. That fundamental theological position is what causes problems here... imho.

No TO person here has ever complained about anyone saying, "I am TO Messianic, but I don't see where eating cheeseburgers is disallowed."

That's fine, and we can discuss kosher laws and rabbinic additions till the cows come home.

Problems are introduced when people come here saying, "I am TO Messianic, but the Torah is no longer binding on us because Yeshua did XYZ."

At some point in the past year or so, Talmidim coined a phrase I considered quite brilliant, which summed up this situation perfectly: "Non-observance is not a level of observance."

In effect, it seems to me that we are trying to enforce the wrong rules... or enforce them on the wrong segment of the population. I may be incorrect, but these are my own observations.

And, after all...

Ok soooo tell me what i missed, what are some unforeseen issues with this plan?

You did ask for input!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The biggest hindrance I see is those who assert, "I am Messianic and my theology says that the Torah is irrelevant to being Messianic." This has been stated by more than one person flying the scroll icon here. The idea has also been stated by proxy, through reference links to outsiders (e.g., Arnold Fruchtenbaum) who are not part of this forum.

Some posters just don't care about the rules, and only take our rules as a challenge to "straighten us out" by claiming our rules are unreasonable, or contrary to the majority of MJ.



I'd like it. But such a rule must be enforced. Contrary posters need to be immediately warned, and ejected after repeated warnings. If "Maxell's silver hammer" doesn't land on their head right away, they grow emboldened. It is like smacking a puppy on the nose right away after he chews your shoes--there needs to be immediate consequence, or he won't get the relationship between cause and effect.



If I may, this phrase I've highlighted might represent a misunderstanding of some sort. I don't perceive that we have ever had issues about level of observance, or which mitzvot constitute acceptable observance. That sort of difference actually provides just enough dynamic tension to make for good discussions. Rather, the arguments involve those whose theology informs them that the Torah, en toto, has been rendered nullified, void, and no longer binding on any follower of Yeshua. That fundamental theological position is what causes problems here... imho.

No TO person here has ever complained about anyone saying, "I am TO Messianic, but I don't see where eating cheeseburgers is disallowed."

That's fine, and we can discuss kosher laws and rabbinic additions till the cows come home.

Problems are introduced when people come here saying, "I am TO Messianic, but the Torah is no longer binding on us because Yeshua did XYZ."

At some point in the past year or so, Talmidim coined a phrase I considered quite brilliant, which summed up this situation perfectly: "Non-observance is not a level of observance."

In effect, it seems to me that we are trying to enforce the wrong rules... or enforce them on the wrong segment of the population. I may be incorrect, but these are my own observations.

And, after all...



You did ask for input!

I think we have to look at this from the perspective of Messianic Judaism not what one thinks it should be. That would depend which Messianic Judaism we are talking about and which one is affiliated with. And we also have to consider it from being Jewish since it's a Judaism that includes Gentiles. It's not a Judaism that includes Jews as Jews are already included to begin with.

This correlates how leaderships define and distinguish, depending what Messianic Judaism.

You talk to MJAA and UMJC leaderships and they have different views than let's say CTMOC.

So what Messianic Judaism are we discussing?

Is the purpose of this forum to create a Messianic Judaism of it's own?

 

[daq]

I was thinking of the Church going Law / Jew haters who lurk here on CF.

Yes, me too, and that also brings up the topic of offensive signatures coming in to such a board if one were to be created. After all the offensive language must be reported to be stopped but in that crowd the same language is not often reported because no one seems to find it offensive. It seems that the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes were all "the wicked one" according to the Law haters and some who even frequent here sometimes already have some pretty offensive statements and links in their signatures. However, I have developed a somewhat tough skin about it so it probably does not concern me as much as it might others.