Messianics and Dispensationalism

[Avodat]

Chernoff has had some very good insights - based on what I've seen in keeping up with his work over the years. As said before elsewhere

​

Chernoff was ordaining Messianic Rabbis back in the early 1990's that I know of.

 

[Avodat]

Chernoff has had some very good insights - based on what I've seen in keeping up with his work over the years. As said before elsewhere

​

There are a number of important bits missed from the listing but a look at Barry Horner's 'Future Israel' and Stephen Sizer's 'Christian Zionism' (only the first third) will adequately fill in the gaps and give more background information.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There are a number of important bits missed from the listing but a look at Barry Horner's 'Future Israel' and Stephen Sizer's 'Christian Zionism' (only the first third) will adequately fill in the gaps and give more background information.

I remember from previous discussion where more detail were given on the matter (as seen here and here in #79 / #80 /#81 , & #90 ) - including Sizer's book. The original post I gave was centered more so on Chernof - with the other parts of it being what came before what I shared in references to the listing (for the sake of full picture)

I may not agree with Sizer on all points of view - but I do appreciate where he did contribute to historical consistency/accuracy in many areas.

Chernoff was ordaining Messianic Rabbis back in the early 1990's that I know of.

I think it may've been a bit earlier than that.

Now this thread is getting there !!

I'd say it has been going somewhere for some time - but it gets more focused when talking about the Messianic Age.

 

[ananda]

The title of this site is not in the bottom right corner. I see now
You ate not able to follow simple instructions. Read the
Page i posted 28 not the chat forum named lunatic fringe.
You seek to discredit valuable scientific discussion by avoiding the scientific discussion
I told you to read. Just like if you read a newspaper you dont discredit the facts contained
In the newspaper because of the comic section.

Thanks, but I don't engage in debate with those who stoop to rude & personal attacks, e.g. "complete idiots" "ravings" "crank" "you know it" "line of bull" "improve your comprehension skills", etc.

 

[annier]

The conditions of vs ten and eleven must be fully met. Israel must dwell
In the land safely rest from their enemies and then a place
Would then be chosen until then the altar would remain
In the field. Temple worship would be performed in the field
Like Abraham did with Isaac.

What about this verse?
Lev 17:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.
6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

What about this verse?
Lev 17:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.
6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.

Ezekiel proves that there will be sacrifices in the Messianic age. However the 'system' if you will, will be different such as who officiates etc.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Ezekiel proves that there will be sacrifices in the Messianic age. However the 'system' if you will, will be different such as who officiates etc.

Yes, the system is different, and the law is different.

Who do you say officiates it?

You mean the disenfranchise of the levitical priesthood?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Yes, the system is different, and the law is different.

Who do you say officiates it?

You mean the disenfranchise of the levitical priesthood?

Zadok

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Zadok

yup.

 

[Kristen.NewCreation]

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​

 

[Shimshon]

Chernoff has had some very good insights - based on what I've seen in keeping up with his work over the years. As said before elsewhere

​

Thank you G, this post is an awesome exposition of the way Messianic Judaism has and is expressed. May it remain the way it was for centuries only may it grow to it's fullness. As realized in the Messianic age.

Good discussion guys!


Good post

 

[Shimshon]

Thank you Kristen

 

[yedida]

Well I strongly think Dr F is misunderstood. Why can't a Jew keep what he can even thougj knowing the Law of Moses is in-operative/not binding.

If you are honest there is sort of a dis-connect an empty 'space' if you will between when the Temple was destroyed and now.

I'd have to ask that if the Mosaic Law is no longer binding (where it can be binding) then why did Yeshua waste his 3 year ministry teaching nothing but Torah? Didn't He know it wouldn't be binding at His death and resurrection and the destruction of the physical Temple just a few short decades away?

 

[mercy1061]

What about this verse?
Lev 17:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the LORD.
6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8 And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.

Good question. There is but one house (house of Israel) in these verses that you posted; the "new covenant" is made between the house of Israel and her sister's house Judah.

Jer 31

30 (31) “Here, the days are coming,” says Adonai, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra’el and with the house of Y’hudah. 31 (32) It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them,” says Adonai. 32 (33) “For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra’el after those days,” says Adonai: “I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.


Although the covenant is a new covenant, the covenant is made with the same people; the house of Israel; we know Judah was the son of Jacob/Israel. Contrary to popular oppinnion, the Torah existed BEFORE Moses was born. "Circumcision on the 8th day" and Temple worship existed without a temple or the "door of the tabernacle". What are your thoughts on "Temple worship without a temple" and "circumcision on the 8th day"?

Let us hear Pharisee Paul's message to the romans:

Romans 12
I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of God’s mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for God. This will please him; it is the logical “Temple worship” for you.

 

[yedida]

You seem to be confirming that it is a New thing, as you say "nowadays". Well it was not all that long ago that chernoff said this. It was also a show which he was a guest, to speak about the previous "messianic conference which had just finished. The host had attended and they were discussing Messianic judaism. So, I do not know what to make of you all and what you are saying. I have to wonder if you consider the leadership or the messianic jewish aliance, and their messianic conventions, non messianic or what.

I use the term 'nowadays' meaning now, 2013, as opposed to 40-50 years ago when the Messianic Movement was 99.9999% Jewish.
And I, personally, have little use for the ABC organizations. They tend to make the gentile portion of their congregations as second-class citizens. That's something G-d doesn't do.

 

[Shimshon]

I'd have to ask that if the Mosaic Law is no longer binding (where it can be binding) then why did Yeshua waste his 3 year ministry teaching nothing but Torah? Didn't He know it wouldn't be binding at His death and resurrection and the destruction of the physical Temple just a few short decades away?

The gospel was not about Torah, it was about Yeshua, which the Torah reveals but not in full. Yeshua testified, taught, used the Torah to witness about Himself, not about Torah.

Why would he teach observance to commands that he knew would be inoperable for over 2000 years?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I'd have to ask that if the Mosaic Law is no longer binding (where it can be binding) then why did Yeshua waste his 3 year ministry teaching nothing but Torah? Didn't He know it wouldn't be binding at His death and resurrection and the destruction of the physical Temple just a few short decades away?

If your honest that question then when the Temple was still present I would agree. But we don't have anything in scripture about when the Temple isn't present.

 

[ananda]

If your honest that question then when the Temple was still present I would agree. But we don't have anything in scripture about when the Temple isn't present.

Actually we do. What happened after the destruction of the First Temple of Solomon?

 

[mercy1061]

If your honest that question then when the Temple was still present I would agree. But we don't have anything in scripture about when the Temple isn't present.

Matt 22:32

32 ‘I am the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov’? He is God not of the dead but of the living!”

He is known as the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac and the G-d of Jacob. This is PRIOR to any jewish Temple being built. Yeshua requires that the sons of Abraham do the works of Abrahm. Torah is NOT dead; Torah is living.

Ex 3:15

15 God said further to Moshe, “Say this to the people of Isra’el: ‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation.


Did not Abraham circumcise Isaac on the 8th day? Did not Abraham perform Temple worship on that holy mountain when he offered his only son Isaac?

John 8
39 They answered him, “Our father is Avraham.” Yeshua replied, “If you are children of Avraham, then do the things Avraham did!

Abraham was declared righteous with no standing jewish Temple:

James 2
20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such “faith” apart from actions is barren? 21Wasn’t Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz’chak on the altar?


Once a man is circumcised, he remains circumcised, he can not become uncircumcised. A man's circumcision has no "dispensation" or "time frame" attached to it. The foreskin never grows back, and is forever "cutoff" from the body.

Let us hear Pharaisee Paul with regard to "circumcision on the 8th day".

1 Cor 7
18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn’t undergo b’rit-milah.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Matt 22:32

32 ‘I am the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov’? He is God not of the dead but of the living!”

He is known as the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac and the G-d of Jacob. This is PRIOR to any jewish Temple being built. Yeshua requires that the sons of Abraham do the works of Abrahm. Torah is NOT dead; Torah is living.

Ex 3:15

15 God said further to Moshe, “Say this to the people of Isra’el: ‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation.


Did not Abraham circumcise Isaac on the 8th day? Did not Abraham perform Temple worship on that holy mountain when he offered his only son Isaac?

John 8
39 They answered him, “Our father is Avraham.” Yeshua replied, “If you are children of Avraham, then do the things Avraham did!

Abraham was declared righteous with no standing jewish Temple:

James 2
20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such “faith” apart from actions is barren? 21Wasn’t Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz’chak on the altar?


Once a man is circumcised, he remains circumcised, he can not become uncircumcised. A man's circumcision has no "dispensation" or "time frame" attached to it. The foreskin never grows back, and is forever "cutoff" from the body.

Let us hear Pharaisee Paul with regard to "circumcision on the 8th day".

1 Cor 7
18 Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn’t undergo b’rit-milah.

Actually, you are incorrect. There were some Jews during the period of Greek rule that had their circumcision surgically reversed.