Infant Baptism

[Lion King]

So you propose universal salvation for babies? Babies need no savior? Why on earth then does God ever let anybody grow up? Hardly merciful to let anybody survive to this mythical age of reason.

All babies already have a Savior in Jesus Christ. Have you not heard the Scriptures speak:

Out of the mouth of babes and infants have you ordained strength because of your enemies, that you might still the enemy and the avenger. Psalm 8:2

How do you think babies know the difference between right and wrong? Who taught them that?

Thank you El Shaddai for revealing your will unto babes.

The context of God's revelation to Peter is related to dietary laws and food, not people. All people are not clean, or otherwise all people would be in heaven.

St. Paul is who refers to children who are holy versus children who are unclean. Care to comment on what you think he means by that?

I humbly implore you to carefully and prayerfully re-think your position.

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Acts 10:15

_________

Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?” Acts 10:28-29

 

[Lion King]

Followed by "For the promise is to you and to your children".

You repent. Here's the promise -- forgiveness of your sins and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Promised for your children too.

Just saying.

Falls right in line with St. Paul's understanding that a believing parent brings their child to holiness.

I take it you have never read Ezekiel 18:20 before?

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20

 

[Lion King]

Well, evidently circumcision was necessary for male babies to be part of the Covenant, or it wouldn't have been required, would it. If not, God would have allowed the circumcision to take place when the child was old enough to decide on his own, at the "age of reason".

Was John baptized with water before he received the Spirit?

 

[narnia59]

All babies already have a Savior in Jesus Christ. Have you not heard the Scriptures speak:

Out of the mouth of babes and infants have you ordained strength because of your enemies, that you might still the enemy and the avenger. Psalm 8:2

How do you think babies know the difference between right and wrong? Who taught them that?

Thank you El Shaddai for revealing your will unto babes.



I humbly implore you to carefully and prayerfully re-think your position.

The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Acts 10:15

_________

Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. I ask, then, for what reason have you sent for me?” Acts 10:28-29

So all babies have been saved, then they get older and are no longer saved, until they make a decision for Jesus and then they're saved again? Unless they're fortunate enough to die first?

Read the context of what you're citing please? Jewish food laws no longer apply. It is no longer unlawful for Jews to keep company with non-Jews, because becoming "clean" -- washed in the waters of baptism -- is not limited to Jews. That was Peter's lesson.

I humbly implore you to answer my question -- what does Paul mean when he refers to children who have a believing parent as holy, and other children as unclean? Apparently you believe he is in error.

 

[narnia59]

I take it you have never read Ezekiel 18:20 before?

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20

Yes, and I've also read Deuteronomy 5:9

"for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me"

Best not to build your theology around a single proof text.

"The one who sins is the one who will die". How come babies die then?

 

[Lion King]

So all babies have been saved, then they get older and are no longer saved, until they make a decision for Jesus and then they're saved again? Unless they're fortunate enough to die first?

Before we go any further, are you one of those folks who believe in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

Read the context of what you're citing please? Jewish food laws no longer apply. It is no longer unlawful for Jews to keep company with non-Jews, because becoming "clean" -- washed in the waters of baptism -- is not limited to Jews. That was Peter's lesson.

It has already been shown in the Scriptures what that vision meant. No creation of God is to be called unclean because He has made them all clean, both the Jews and Gentiles.

Babies are not unclean, simply because their parents are not Christians. That is false teaching.

I humbly implore you to answer my question -- what does Paul mean when he refers to children who have a believing parent as holy, and other children as unclean? Apparently you believe he is in error.

Well, it seems pretty clear to me that Paul did not mean what you think he meant, since the parents righteousness can NEVER be credited to their children. If that were true, then all Israel would surely be saved simply because of their father, Abraham.

 

[WisdomTree]

+1 with Cappadocious...and LOVE the video!!!

Your Baptism is valid as long as it was in the Trinitarian formula ("in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"). That Baptism cannot be undone, no more than circumcision could have been undone to the Jews.

Imagine undoing a circumcision...

 

[narnia59]

Before we go any further, are you one of those folks who believe in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

Nope.

It has already been shown in the Scriptures what that vision meant. No creation of God is to be called unclean because He has made them all clean, both the Jews and Gentiles.

In that case, everybody's clean and nobody needs a Savior.

Babies are not unclean, simply because their parents are not Christians. That is false teaching.

Then St. Paul is a false teacher.

Well, it seems pretty clear to me that Paul did not mean what you think he meant, since the parents righteousness can NEVER be credited to their children. If that were true, then all Israel would surely be saved simply because of their father, Abraham.

So what did he mean?

And St. Paul says nothing about dead multiple times great grandparents sanctifying children. Just a believing parent.

 

[Lion King]

Yes, and I've also read Deuteronomy 5:9

"for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me"

Best not to build your theology around a single proof text.

Thankfully, I do not. The righteousness of the father will not save the son at judgement day as each man will be judged according to his own works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13

"The one who sins is the one who will die". How come babies die then?

Why do people die?

...because we are not immortal, that's why.

 

[narnia59]

Thankfully, I do not. The righteousness of the father will not save the son at judgement day as each man will be judged according to his own works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13




Why do people die?

...because we are not immortal, that's why.

The passage you quoted says "The one who sins is the one who will die". Children die. Not a good way to make your case that children have no sin.

What 'works' are children going to be judged by?

 

[Lion King]

Nope.

Then why do you find it hard to believe a person can lose the gift of the holy-Spirit?

In that case, everybody's clean and nobody needs a Savior.

Every human being is regarded as clean by God (meaning the Jews can interact with all Gentiles, regardless of whether the Gentile believe in God or not). However, not every person is SPIRITUALLY clean.

You understand the difference?

Then St. Paul is a false teacher.

Or maybe, it could simply mean that you mis-understood him?

So what did he mean?

And St. Paul says nothing about dead multiple times great grandparents sanctifying children. Just a believing parent.

I haven't really put too much thought into that passage, but it definitely does not mean what you think it means. Jesus Christ clearly said that only those who did the will of God are His family. To claim that one is declared righteous simply because their parent is/was righteous is misleading people to hell imo.

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

 

[Lion King]

The passage you quoted says "The one who sins is the one who will die". Children die. Not a good way to make your case that children have no sin.

You sin do you not? Are you dead? (Maybe, Ezekiel was referring to physical death?)

It would seem you are taking that Ezekiel passage out of context. What I was merely trying to show you is that the parents righteousness is NEVER credited to their children by God as you are erroneously claiming.

What 'works' are children going to be judged by?

Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 1 Corinthians 4:5

They will be judged according to the motives of their hearts.

 

[narnia59]

Then why do you find it hard to believe a person can lose the gift of the holy-Spirit?

What does the child do to lose the gift?

Every human being is regarded as clean by God (meaning the Jews can interact with all Gentiles, regardless of whether the Gentile believe in God or not). However, not every person is SPIRITUALLY clean.

You understand the difference?

I agree the passage doesn't apply to being spiritually clean, but that also makes it have no value to your argument that babies are by default spiritually clean.

Or maybe, it could simply mean that you mis-understood him?




I haven't really put too much thought into that passage, but it definitely does not mean what you think it means. Jesus Christ clearly said that only those who did the will of God are His family. To claim that one is declared righteous simply because their parent is/was righteous is misleading people to hell imo.


While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Well, put some thought into and come up with a reasonable alternative and I'll consider it.

How do babies do the will of the Father?

I'm out of here, good night.

 

[Elder 111]

That's already been covered, Elder. See post 113.

So the basic for baptizing babies is our doing not God's. John baptized adults all the reports of baptism are for adults, Jesus our example was an adult, why argue for babies to be baptized? Because Luther did not object that is a good reason?
If taking Jesus' example to seek baptism as an adult is a sin in others eyes then to bad.

 

[shturt678]

Was John the Baptist baptized with water before he received the Holy-Spirit? The Spirit of God is given to babies at/before birth:

Out of the mouth of babes and infants have you ordained strength because of your enemies, that you might still the enemy and the avenger. Psalm 8:2

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes. Matthew 11:25

And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, And said to him, Hear you what these say? And Jesus said to them, Yes; have you never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings you have perfected praise? Matthew 21:15-16

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

My fault, not lucid again. I meant where the Holy Spirit actually comes into to dwell after Pentecost, ie, the infants need the Holy Spirit's indwelling.

 

[shturt678]

.....and if water baptism is for those "that believe in me," ie, Matt.18:6, 10, Jesus picked up this little child and he cradled this little child in his arms to his breast, Mk.9:36, ie, most likely this child was under 3 years of age and if at Lk.18:15, "babes" (includes sucklings) the same in Lk.1:41 where John the Baptist leaped in the womb and was filled with the Holy Spirit and if infants need rebirth and are guilty with "hereditary sin," and if infants can be holy, ICor.7:14, one can only conclude that infants need water baptismal rebirth.

 

[VolRaider]

Funny how those who subscribe to believer's baptism are in complete agreement with heretics like the Mormons, JWs, Christadelphians, etc.

 

[Albion]

So the basic for baptizing babies is our doing not God's. John baptized adults all the reports of baptism are for adults, Jesus our example was an adult, why argue for babies to be baptized?

That has also been well discussed here. John's Baptism is not the Christian, sacramental Baptism that is our subject. I thought that was well understood.

If taking Jesus' example to seek baptism as an adult is a sin

Has anyone suggested that adult baptism is a sin? If not, why are you trying to confuse the issue?

 

[VolRaider]

That has also been well discussed here. John's Baptism is not the Christian, sacramental Baptism that is our subject. I thought that was well understood.



Has anyone suggested that adult baptism is a sin? If not, why are you trying to confuse the issue?

I've yet to see a proponent of infant baptism say adult baptism is invalid. We don't condemn ANY Trinitarian baptism.

 

[Rev Randy]

There is no account of children in the bible only grown-ups. Show me a baby or even a child that was baptized.

I have one but I think our definition of baptism is different.
How about the unborn John the Baptist. Imagine that an unborn infant filled with the Holy Spirit.
No need for Children? Childhood is not practice for life. Childhood is life. If it took knowledge to be saved, then what about those with mental defects? Do we also fail to baptize them?
At what age are you saying we should baptize. Do we ask our children to believe or tell them to believe?
Before we adopted our Child, we already were raising her. She was still in diapers but speaking a few words. We took her to be baptized. Not because she understood the gospel of Christ but because the Gospel is what we (meaning my daughter and me)believe. I did not offer her an option to believe anything else.Now if in later years she decided to forego those beliefs for another, then it will be on her head. A child believes what the child's parents teach them. A young woman or young man decides on their own.
Now if I actually believed baptism was nothing more than a public profession of faith, then I'd agree it would not be for infants. But it is so much more than that. We don't even do it in public but within the confines of the Church.(in the Nave) It's family (church family) in attendance not the public.