Infant Baptism

[PaladinValer]

I am not interested in sacraments.

Sacraments are a vital aspect of Christianity. You cannot have ancient, historic Christianity that our 1st century brothers and sisters had without sacramental theology.

I am interested in Christ and a deep relationship with Him and the Father through the HS which dwells in me.

Which you didn't have until you were baptized.

I too have been water baptized.

The qualifier "water" isn't needed. There is only one Holy Baptism, which requires water as per the Holy Writ.

Once when I was 8 and then when I came to know Christ.

Again, that's an argument for comprehension. That's Gnosticism, not Christianity. It isn't Christian practice or theology to believe we must understand.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am not interested in sacraments.

Okay.

Christians are interested in the sacraments because they are both commanded by the Lord and they are gifts from God.

I am interested in Christ and a deep relationship with Him and the Father through the HS which dwells in me.

Christians seek to die to self and rise with Christ in baptism.

Romans 6:3-5 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.​

I too have been water baptized. Once when I was 8 and then when I came to know Christ.

One can be born from above (born again) once; do you believe that one can be born again twice or more?

 

[shturt678]

David and John had a relationship with the LORD even before birth, the same is for all infants.

But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God. - Psalm 22:9-10




What is "hereditary sin", if I may ask?

Getting to know you better. Thank you for your patience. "Hereditary sin" is put forth in Ps.51:5, and I like to add Jn.3:6, ie, we are born with a sin problem and can be reconciled on the 8th day. BTW I really enjoy the Psalms and will relook at Ps.22:9, 10, thank you again.

This is one of the reasons I enjoy these threads, we meet the good, bad and the ugly, but that one good overrides all the rest. Encouraging.

 

[BrotherDC]

Sacraments are a vital aspect of Christianity. You cannot have ancient, historic Christianity that our 1st century brothers and sisters had without sacramental theology.



Which you didn't have until you were baptized.



The qualifier "water" isn't needed. There is only one Holy Baptism, which requires water as per the Holy Writ.



Again, that's an argument for comprehension. That's Gnosticism, not Christianity. It isn't Christian practice or theology to believe we must understand.

the HS doesn't need water, just faith. I know this to be true 100%

 

[PaladinValer]

the HS doesn't need water, just faith. I know this to be true 100%

The Bible says that by Holy Baptism we become born anew in Christ by living faith.

Add all the passages up instead of picking and choosing. The Rule of Addition is a fundamental part of truth and logic.

The Bible has spoken. The Church by the Holy Spirit has authoritatively interpreted for all time. And the interpretation is proven logic.

Without Holy Baptism, a person is not a visible member of the Holy Church
Without Holy Baptism, a person remains in original sin
Without Holy Baptism, a person is not a truly fit place for God the Holy Spirit to dwell
Without Holy Baptism, a person has not accepted Christ because they've failed to do as He commands
Without Holy Baptism, a person is missing a key salvific characteristic
Without Holy Baptism, a person is not a New Adam

Holy Baptism makes us visible and real members of the Church; His Mystical Body and His Militant...it washes away original and all actual sins, it makes us pure and whole places for God the Holy Spirit to dwell, it is our "yes" to Christ, it is the moment of our salvation and the beginning of our salvation and the hope of our salvation, it is our dying in Christ, descent and burial in Christ, rising in Christ, and with the following Holy Chrismation, our sealing with Christ by our own personal Pentecost. Holy Baptism does all this and more.

This is Christianity. Holy Baptism is God's gift to us; the new and living way made possible by Him, in Him, with Him. It requires no understanding or knowledge or any level of comprehension; it requires something far more simple and easy: mere trust and active belief, something that all, from the just newborn to a human vegetable can do.

Any sort of comprehension destroys this...it turns God into a cruel demiurge who passes those over who are too young, too disabled, or who have lost mental ability. I forsake such a false god utterly; it is but an idol.

No, my God is the Living God Who shows absolutely no partiality, able to bring all into Himself by Himself for Himself and for His unfathomable, immeasurable, infinite love for all existence. All are welcome to the true baptismal waters that do what I have described above and more; all that is required is living faith.

 

[BrotherDC]

The Bible says that by Holy Baptism we become born anew in Christ by living faith.

Add all the passages up instead of picking and choosing. The Rule of Addition is a fundamental part of truth and logic.

The Bible has spoken. The Church by the Holy Spirit has authoritatively interpreted for all time. And the interpretation is proven logic.

Without Holy Baptism, a person is not a visible member of the Holy Church
Without Holy Baptism, a person remains in original sin
Without Holy Baptism, a person is not a truly fit place for God the Holy Spirit to dwell
Without Holy Baptism, a person has not accepted Christ because they've failed to do as He commands
Without Holy Baptism, a person is missing a key salvific characteristic
Without Holy Baptism, a person is not a New Adam

Holy Baptism makes us visible and real members of the Church; His Mystical Body and His Militant...it washes away original and all actual sins, it makes us pure and whole places for God the Holy Spirit to dwell, it is our "yes" to Christ, it is the moment of our salvation and the beginning of our salvation and the hope of our salvation, it is our dying in Christ, descent and burial in Christ, rising in Christ, and with the following Holy Chrismation, our sealing with Christ by our own personal Pentecost. Holy Baptism does all this and more.

This is Christianity. Holy Baptism is God's gift to us; the new and living way made possible by Him, in Him, with Him. It requires no understanding or knowledge or any level of comprehension; it requires something far more simple and easy: mere trust and active belief, something that all, from the just newborn to a human vegetable can do.

Any sort of comprehension destroys this...it turns God into a cruel demiurge who passes those over who are too young, too disabled, or who have lost mental ability. I forsake such a false god utterly; it is but an idol.

No, my God is the Living God Who shows absolutely no partiality, able to bring all into Himself by Himself for Himself and for His unfathomable, immeasurable, infinite love for all existence. All are welcome to the true baptismal waters that do what I have described above and more; all that is required is living faith.

I don't need a scripture to know i have Christ within me.

 

[BrotherDC]

Its about faith.

 

[ViaCrucis]

the HS doesn't need water, just faith. I know this to be true 100%

You do need faith, that's correct. How do you get faith?

Scripture says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. So faith comes to you from outside yourself, from God, it is the gracious work of God.

So if faith comes from the Word, where is the Word usually found as part of the new birth? The biblical answer? Ephesians 5:26 says that Christ has cleansed us by the washing of water with the Word. That is, Holy Baptism.

Can God grant faith apart from the Sacrament of Holy Baptism? Of course. But Baptism always has the Word, and the Word always confers faith. Whoever is baptized has faith in Christ Jesus. Which is why Scripture says that in Baptism we died with Christ, having been buried with Him so that we might share in His newness of life; and that in Baptism we have been clothed with Jesus Christ.

To say that you don't need water, but just faith, is to create a false dichotomy unfounded in Scripture. Scripture says what Baptism is and what Baptism does--Baptism creates faith in us, by the power of the Word that is present in and with the water. If Baptism were only water, it would do and be nothing; but because it is water with the Word, it does and accomplishes everything for which God has given it.

So who are we to deny the efficacy of the Word and gifts of God?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Its about faith.

And how do you have faith? Is it by your own strength and power? Did BrotherDC rise up one day and say, "I am faithful"? Did BrotherDC become righteous on his own?

Or did you, like all others, have faith given to you by the gracious outpouring of God's mercy upon you, when the Word was presented to you and the Holy Spirit grabbed ahold of you and transformed you from unbelieving to believing? Did you come to Christ on your own, or did God grab hold of you by His effectual calling and grace?

If the former, then you may boast in your works; but if the latter there is no room for boasting, save in the Cross of Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't need a scripture to know i have Christ within me.

But I have Holy Scripture to prove your theology is not valid:

St. Paul's Letter to the Ephesians 5:25-27 proves that Holy Baptism washes sins (it cleanses to the point of removing all spots and wrinkles...in short, takes away original sins and actual sins)

Jesus proclaims in St. John 3:3-5 that Holy Baptism is required to be born from above...the water is required and goes with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus further says in St. Matthew 16:16 that Holy Baptism is required.

St. Paul tells us what Holy Baptism signifies and does in his Letter to the Romans 6:1-11; we are baptized in Christ's death, burial and descent, and also in his resurrection, putting to death the old man and becoming a New Creation by taking on the New Man. It frees us, which means it regenerates and gives us true freedom to choose, meaning we have been made a wholesome and fit place for God the Holy Spirit to dwell and have received Him at that time, or otherwise, we would not be free to choose for it is only by God's grace can we truly be free, and the Holy Spirit, Who is God, purifies.

I don't need to tell anyone how often Holy Baptism is shown in the Holy Writ to signify their joining of the Christian Church, do I?

I've proven all my points listed. I could also add that, since we are baptized in Christ and it does make us a part of His Mystical Body the Church, since the Holy Bible says it is the Church that will be saved, then I can say that the Holy Bible teaches Holy Baptism makes us co-inheritors with Christ; being made adoptive sons by it. It is our "yes" to God likewise and also the beginning of our real relationship with Christ in a most intimate of ways; the moment we truly accept Him as Lord, Savior, and God.

And to echo ViaCrucis, who supplies your faith? My faith was gifted to me for God was merciful enough to provide the means for my Holy Baptism when I was two months old. I accepted that grace even at that age; I didn't need to understand or comprehend it; I just needed to trust Him. And I did, and no one can logically say otherwise least they fall into non-Christian Gnostic theology because faith isn't intellectual!

I do not boast for and of myself here; I boast of God's wonderful and limitless gift of mercy, love, and salvation...even to unknowing babes!

Knowledge puffs up, it is written. More than likely, that was an early warning against Gnostics. Beware those that teach a comprehension/knowledge/understanding-required baptism as necessary and only-valid; it flies against everything Christianity and the Holy Writ teaches. If salvation is a gift, it requires nothing of ourselves...that includes our knowledge and ability to comprehend...only our trust.

Its about faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am not interested in sacraments.

Really?
The sacrament of baptism, sacrament of Holy Communion and the sacrament of marriage - you're not interested in them?

 

[MoreCoffee]

For those folk who do not want to participate in infant baptism the answer is simple - don't go to any infant's baptism.

For the folk who think baptism is a public profession of faith but nothing much more the answer is simple - do not go to any infant's baptism.

For those who believe that baptism washes away one's sins, marks a person's union with Christ, joins one to Christ in his death and in his resurrection, and that the promise of salvation is for Christians and for their children the answer is simple - participate in every infant's baptism to which you are called.

No problems.

By the way,

Scripture says a whole lot about baptism

• washing away sins,
• uniting to Christ,
• being instrumental in the new birth,
• saving,
• effecting one's dying and rising again, and
• being tied to one's receiving of the Spirit.

 

[shturt678]

the HS doesn't need water, just faith. I know this to be true 100%

The precious Holy Spirit doesn't need water if we delete Jn.3:5 from the precious Scriptures, just for starters.

 

[Lion King]

Getting to know you better. Thank you for your patience. "Hereditary sin" is put forth in Ps.51:5, and I like to add Jn.3:6, ie, we are born with a sin problem and can be reconciled on the 8th day. BTW I really enjoy the Psalms and will relook at Ps.22:9, 10, thank you again.

This is one of the reasons I enjoy these threads, we meet the good, bad and the ugly, but that one good overrides all the rest. Encouraging.

Yes, we are all born with a sin problem, but that doesn't mean we are born with sin. As far as I'm aware, infants have no sin in them, since they have no knowledge between good and evil.

 

[Albion]

Yes, we are all born with a sin problem, but that doesn't mean we are born with sin. As far as I'm aware, infants have no sin in them, since they have no knowledge between good and evil.

Sin is a condition, so it is entirely possible to be born with sin. The Bible says that all men are born in sin, so that would seem to settle it.

 

[Lion King]

Sin is a condition, so it is entirely possible to be born with sin. The Bible says that all men are born in sin, so that would seem to settle it.

Being born in sin =/= born with sin.

No one is born with sin, though we are all born with a sinful nature. Even Jesus Christ was born in the likeness of our sinful flesh (Romans 8:3) and experienced all the temptations we face daily, but had no sin in Him. Infants do not know evil, they are innocent in the eyes of God hence we are called to emulate them by Christ (Matthew 18:3, 1 Corinthians 14:20).

And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad--they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. Deuteronomy 1:39

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them. James 4:17

 

[RisingSpirit]

...No one is born with sin, though we are all born with a sinful nature. ...

[SIZE=+1]John Calvin defined Original Sin as "hereditary depravity
and corruption of our nature" (click HERE).

The core concept being that sin isn't principally an act.
It's part of our very nature. Our inherited nature. Which
means we are sinner from the time of our conception and
while still in the womb !

We don't have to do anything to be in a state of sin. We
are sinners even before being old enough to commit sin.


The Belgic Reformed branch of Calvinism reflects this
doctrine in the Belgic Confession. While the Presbyterian
branch teaches the exact same thing in the Westminster
Confession. And, the Second Helvetic Confession
concurs, stating:

"By sin we understand that
innate corruption of man
which has been derived or
propagated in us all from
our first parents"
(HC; Ch. 8)

The Lutheran Augsburg Confession also agrees:

"all men begotten in the
natural way are born with
sin"

And that this "is truly sin". (AC; Article 2).


Sin primarily and foremost a condition being the orthodox
and historical Reformation doctrine. The Pope in Rome,
Pelagius, all semi-Pelagians, the Anabaptist heretics, and
John Piper hold differently.[/SIZE]

 

[Albion]

Being born in sin =/= born with sin.

It is your thinking that childbirth itself is a sin, then? There's no other possible interpretation.

 

[Strong in Him]

If original sin means that all babies are sinners and born in sin, then Jesus was too. Hebrews says that he was like us in every way - except that he did not sin. So he can't have had a sinful nature or one that made it impossible for him to sin; so babies can't be born sinners.

 

[BrotherDC]

The precious Holy Spirit doesn't need water if we delete Jn.3:5 from the precious Scriptures, just for starters.

So you disagree then? Thats to be expected and it doesnt matter, your faith obeys as does mine, God will help us. Faith, ah faith, i love the Lord, he baptizes me in Joy, praise the Lord!