America is Babylon

[interpreter]

Jesus' sign won't appear in the clouds until his second coming (Matthew 24:30).

All of the world history books say it appeared on Oct. 28th 312 AD.

How do you define "Christian nations"? Also, how were they the dominant force on the earth during the Middle Ages? What about the Arab, Chinese, and Indian empires which existed during that time? Also, what scripture refers to Christian nations being the dominant force on the earth? Also, isn't the church throughout the earth its own, singular "nation" (1 Peter 2:9)? And aren't all Christians currently citizens of heaven (Philippians 3:20), so that they should currently be considering themselves as only strangers and pilgrims on the earth (1 Peter 2:11)? What scripture refers to Christians currently forming various political divisions on the earth, and asserting military "dominance" over the earth?

Also, Daniel 12:7b shows that at Jesus' second coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' second coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his second coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God will not share this glory with the church (compare Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

Also, in Matthew 5:39, like in Matthew 26:52 and 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Jesus commands Christians, who are under the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), not to employ violence against people, even in self-defense.

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for believers of what they are to do when they are physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). Believers are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36) just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23). During the future tribulation, believers will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (for example, Revelation 2:10-11). Obedient believers must not fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and must not love their lives until death (Revelation 12:11b), but must hate their lives in this world if they are to retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38).

Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).



How did the Orthodox Church fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)? Also, which of these details refers to them defeating the beast?

A Christian nation is any nation where the Christians are in the majority. Their dominance was tested by the Islamic hordes (the 7th head of the beast).
Jesus came, not to bring peace, but a sword. What are we to do with it?--see Luke 19:27.

How did they fulfill all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

Have you ever read a history book?

What requires that Venus has ever been, as you said before, "directly overhead", that is, in the zenith above Bethlehem, and for more than just a few minutes, or that Venus has passed through that zenith only once throughout all history?

The Bible requires that Venus be directly over Bethlehem at the time of the birth of Jesus, and it was.

Also, Venus can't be the "star" in Matthew 2:2,9 for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

Venus is the only star called the Star in the East.

In what verse are the 7 messengers themselves called stars, instead of them only being represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20)?

In a vision they are called stars. Why are you slitting hairs?

They could have been 7 human messengers sent by the 7 churches to John on Patmos.

Why would seven human messengers be called stars?

How has it been shown that they all didn't exist decades before Revelation was written, like the churches in Ephesus and Laodicea existed in the time of Paul's ministry (Ephesians 1:1, Colossians 4:15-16)?

Some of the 7 Asian churches were not mentioned by Paul

There can, such as the church in general simply not being ready (until the time that Revelation was written) to hear everything that Jesus had to tell the church in Revelation (John 16:12).

Nonsense, the Revelation could not have been penned before 95 AD because some of the Asian churches did not exist until then.

Why do you think that Jesus had to wait until the first century AD to fulfill all prophecies (that is, regarding his first coming: Luke 12:44-46)?

That is when Venus appeared over Bethlehem

How has it been shown that they didn't represent the 7 churches which already existed in Roman "Asia" at the time of John, just as Revelation 1:20,11 says?

The seven golden lampstands represent 7 Churches, and not the 7 churches.

Modern Bible maps are all different with regard to exactly where they place the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b).


What map of Turkey shows the 7 cities of the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b)? Also, how many of these cities even still exist, and how has it been proven that a city or little village that exists today in Turkey is in the exact same location as one of the 7 cities of the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" in the first century AD (Revelation 1:11b)?

I found the maps of Turkey in the Blue Guide to Turkey to be helpful in pinpointing the 7 Asian churches.

Sorry, but they form only a rough triangle.

What map are you using?

If that were the case, then who would be the woman in Revelation 12?

Israel or Mary or the Church, which gave birth to Jesus

Can you quote from where any one of them says, as you have claimed, that Great Britain became a superpower by selling expensive food?

Adjusting for inflation, it wasn't all that expensive. My point is, Great Britain made a great deal of money on its investments overseas.

Why can't they be both?

The Revelation began unfolding "with speed."

That's right. For even though global warming exists, it doesn't cause men to be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). So the fourth vial/plague hasn't happened yet. It would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

John discribes global warming in terms a first century reader could understand. They would not have understood about green-house gases.

How is it obvious that any scripture requires a "Battle of" Armageddon?

Rev. 16:12-16

Actually, it doesn't. It means Mount Megiddo, a place in northern Israel.

There is nothing of any military value there.

Old news still exists in news archives. But you won't find in them any article saying that the Euphrates was dried up by Saddam Hussein.

I do not have access to News archives

Again, how can a single city be referred to as an empire? Also, how does its fall, or how long it lasted, relate to any scripture?

In those days, single cities ruled empires. And as for today, how long do you think the US would last if Washington, DC fell? All of the 5 horsemen rule for a thousand years.

How was it defeated by Napoleon in 1806? And how does its defeat relate to any scripture?

I have no idea how he did it. Each one of the 5 horsemen will rule for a thousand years, but not much longer.

Rather, Revelation chapters 6 to 14 haven't yet begun to be fulfilled. That's why the fulfillment of their myriad details can't be found in history.

Have you ever taken a history class?

None of the seven last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) are skin cancer or in the news.

The first plague is plainly skin cancer, which is often in the news.

 

[shturt678]

No, for Revelation 20:1-3 will also occur at Jesus' second coming.

Revelation 20:1-3 wasn't fulfilled at the Cross, because Satan still walks about on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Do you mean that Satan didn't have a problem initially at Lk.11:21, 22, let alone at the Cross, e.g., Rev.12:7, etc.? I thought it was the antichrist after me, maybe it's Satan because Jesus didn't have enough power to subdue Satan? :o :o

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 621:

All of the world history books say it appeared on Oct. 28th 312 AD.

Actually, no history book says that the sign in Matthew 24:30 appeared, for it won't appear until Jesus' second coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). The second coming won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' physical return in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future second coming from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, could be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his second coming (Matthew 24:30). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see him with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30 require. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' second coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it's not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's bodily resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the second coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

interpreter said in post 621:

A Christian nation is any nation where the Christians are in the majority.

Then Hitler's Germany was a Christian nation?

Jesus came, not to bring peace, but a sword. What are we to do with it?--see Luke 19:27.

Luke 19:27 refers to what will happen only at Jesus' second coming (Luke 19:15, Revelation 19:19-21).

Also, Matthew 10:34 doesn't refer to a literal sword that kills people, but to a figurative sword that brings only relational division between believers and unbelievers (Matthew 10:34-39).

Have you ever read a history book?

Yes, many, and none referred to any things that fulfilled all the details of Revelation 6:2-8.

The Bible requires that Venus be directly over Bethlehem at the time of the birth of Jesus, and it was.

The Bible doesn't require that Venus was directly over Bethlehem at the time of the birth of Jesus, and nothing so far requires that it was. Also, Matthew 2:9 isn't referring to Venus, but to a bright object in the sky that sometimes moved and sometimes stood still, like what we today would call a UFO. But the star in Matthew 2:9 could have been an angel, even the same one who had appeared on the ground two years earlier (Luke 2:9-11). But now he was high up in the air, and moved from above Jerusalem, where the Magi had met with Herod (Matthew 2:1-7), and led them, "went before them" (Matthew 2:9), to go not south to Bethlehem, where Jesus had not been for two years, but north to Nazareth. Literal stars and planets don't move like that from south to north, or from north to south, for that matter, but move only from east to west as the earth rotates under them. Also, literal stars and planets don't move and then stop when they arrive over a particular house (Matthew 2:9-11).

Also, regarding the house in Matthew 2:9-11, note that it's not a barn like two years earlier (Luke 2:7). After the Magi left Nazareth, the two-year-old Jesus (Matthew 2:16) was taken for protection into Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14), whereas shortly after Jesus had been born in Bethlehem two years earlier, he had been taken to Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-38) and then to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).

Also, the star-like object which the Magi saw would have appeared so small that only people who knew all the visible stars extremely well, like the Magi, would have even noticed it in the sky as something new. For if it had been some big, bright object that anyone would have noticed as something new, then Herod wouldn't have asked the Magi when it had first appeared (Matthew 2:7). For he and everyone else would have been talking about it and wondering what it portended for the last two years (Matthew 2:16). Also, just as the Magi noticed something in the sky that nobody else noticed, and followed it to an endpoint, so eschatologists could notice something in the Word that nobody else has noticed and follow it to an endpoint (e.g. Daniel 12:11-12).

interpreter said in post 621:

Venus is the only star called the Star in the East.

Matthew 2:2,9 isn't referring to a common object in the sky as "the star in the east", but is referring to an unusual and tiny point of light in the sky, unnoticed by people (Matthew 2:7), that "the wise men from the east" (Matthew 2:1) had noticed while they were still in the east (Matthew 2:2,9).

In a vision they are called stars.

The 7 messengers themselves aren't called stars, but are only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20)?

Why are you slitting hairs?

It's not hair-splitting, for Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 represented: Not any vectors of the seven cities in Revelation 1:11, but only the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in those seven cities, which were in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey. And these seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on the island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9), which is just off the coast of western Turkey. For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

Some of the 7 Asian churches were not mentioned by Paul

That doesn't require that they didn't exist in his time.

Nonsense, the Revelation could not have been penned before 95 AD because some of the Asian churches did not exist until then.

Nothing require that they didn't all exist long before that time.

The seven golden lampstands represent 7 Churches, and not the 7 churches.

The very last part of Revelation 1:20 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "seven churches" in order for it to be referring to the same seven churches as just mentioned earlier in Revelation 1:20, and in Revelation 1:11, just as, for example, Revelation 1:13 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "Son of man" in order for it to be referring to the Son of man (John 13:31).

I found the maps of Turkey in the Blue Guide to Turkey to be helpful in pinpointing the 7 Asian churches.

Can you paste an image of the map? Also, what requires that it's accurate, and that other, differing maps aren't?

What map are you using?

More than one, and none shows that the locations of the 7 churches in Revelation 1:11b formed anything but an imperfect triangle. Why don't you paste an image of how you see them forming a dove, and indicate what verse that would relate to?

Israel or Mary or the Church, which gave birth to Jesus

Then the woman in Revelation 12 doesn't have to be a woman, just as the man in Revelation 6:2 doesn't have to be a man, but can represent the gospel. Also, regarding the woman in Revelation 12 representing Mary, the mother of Jesus, that isn't the case. For in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, because Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from four different angles what will happen right before the start and during the same future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:11). The crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28). Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus) (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven: Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

interpreter said in post 621:

Adjusting for inflation, it wasn't all that expensive. My point is, Great Britain made a great deal of money on its investments overseas.

How does that fulfill the famines of Revelation 6:5-6?

The Revelation began unfolding "with speed."

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent second coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

John discribes global warming in terms a first century reader could understand. They would not have understood about green-house gases.

Nothing in Revelation refers to global warming.

Rev. 16:12-16

How is it obvious that those verses require a "Battle of" Armageddon?

There is nothing of any military value there.

Who has said that there's anything of military value at Mount Megiddo currently, except a large valley below it that could be used as only a staging area, rather than the place of battle?

I do not have access to News archives

Don't news websites have accessible archives?

In those days, single cities ruled empires.

What empire was Constantinople ruling when it was defeated?

And as for today, how long do you think the US would last if Washington, DC fell?

It could still last until Jesus returns, just as it lasted when Washington DC fell in the War of 1812.

All of the 5 horsemen rule for a thousand years.

Based on what scripture?

I have no idea how he did it.

Then, what requires that the Holy Roman Empire was defeated (by whatever means) by Napoleon in 1806? Also, how does its defeat relate to any
scripture?

Have you ever taken a history class?

Yes, many, and nothing they taught showed that the details of Revelation chapters 6 to 14 have ever been fulfilled.

The first plague is plainly skin cancer, which is often in the news.

What requires that the first plague/vial (Revelation 16:2) is skin cancer?

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 622:

Do you mean that Satan didn't have a problem initially at Lk.11:21, 22, let alone at the Cross, e.g., Rev.12:7, etc.?

Regarding Luke 11:21-22, the "strong man" isn't Satan himself, but refers to "strong man" individual demons/unclean spirits which possess individual people. Compare the strength of the individual demon in the individual man in Acts 19:13-16, who had the strength to overpower seven men. Satan himself remains unbound, walking about freely on the earth (1 Peter 5:8). He won't be bound and locked down in the bottomless pit until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

Do you mean that Satan didn't have a problem initially at Lk.11:21, 22, let alone at the Cross, e.g., Rev.12:7, etc.?

Regarding at the Cross, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b make no reference to the binding of Satan and his being "shut up", that is, enclosed within, the literal bottomless pit by an angel, which won't occur until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

In Hebrews 2:14, the original Greek word (katargeo, G2673) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to make of none effect" (Romans 4:14b). Hebrews 2:14 means that Jesus' death made Satan's power of none effect spiritually over obedient Christians. Similarly, in 1 John 3:8, the original Greek word (luo, G3089) translated as "destroy" can simply mean "to break" (Ephesians 2:14). 1 John 3:8 means that Jesus came to break Satan's workings from having any spiritual effect over obedient Christians.

Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict the fact that Satan can still wield his power physically over even obedient Christians, even to the point of killing them (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Similarly, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b don't contradict the fact that Satan can still wield his deceiving spiritual power over both disobedient Christians and non-Christians (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10), whereas during the future millennium, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:3).

shturt678 said in post 622:

Do you mean that Satan didn't have a problem initially at Lk.11:21, 22, let alone at the Cross, e.g., Rev.12:7, etc.?

Regarding Revelation 12:7-9, it hasn't happened yet, but is part of the things that must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what John saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

shturt678 said in post 622:

I thought it was the antichrist after me, maybe it's Satan because Jesus didn't have enough power to subdue Satan?

Even a single angel will have enough power to subdue Satan (Revelation 20:1-3) at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

But before the second coming, the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be empowered by Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) to physically overcome (and behead) Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[interpreter]

Actually, no history book says that the sign in Matthew 24:30 appeared, for it won't appear until Jesus' second coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). The second coming won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' physical return in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future second coming from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, could be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his second coming (Matthew 24:30). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see him with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30 require. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' second coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it's not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's bodily resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the second coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

On the day that the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

Then Hitler's Germany was a Christian nation?

There are also false prophets.

Luke 19:27 refers to what will happen only at Jesus' second coming (Luke 19:15, Revelation 19:19-21).

Jesus has already returned with His kingdom (in 312 AD).

Also, Matthew 10:34 doesn't refer to a literal sword that kills people, but to a figurative sword that brings only relational division between believers and unbelievers (Matthew 10:34-39).

Wrong. Jesus was talking about a literal sword, which kills people.

Yes, many, and none referred to any things that fulfilled all the details of Revelation 6:2-8.

Let's get back to the OP. Do you deny that the US was founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, or that our weapons bring hell and death?

The Bible doesn't require that Venus was directly over Bethlehem at the time of the birth of Jesus, and nothing so far requires that it was. Also, Matthew 2:9 isn't referring to Venus, but to a bright object in the sky that sometimes moved and sometimes stood still, like what we today would call a UFO. But the star in Matthew 2:9 could have been an angel, even the same one who had appeared on the ground two years earlier (Luke 2:9-11). But now he was high up in the air, and moved from above Jerusalem, where the Magi had met with Herod (Matthew 2:1-7), and led them, "went before them" (Matthew 2:9), to go not south to Bethlehem, where Jesus had not been for two years, but north to Nazareth. Literal stars and planets don't move like that from south to north, or from north to south, for that matter, but move only from east to west as the earth rotates under them. Also, literal stars and planets don't move and then stop when they arrive over a particular house (Matthew 2:9-11).

Also, regarding the house in Matthew 2:9-11, note that it's not a barn like two years earlier (Luke 2:7). After the Magi left Nazareth, the two-year-old Jesus (Matthew 2:16) was taken for protection into Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14), whereas shortly after Jesus had been born in Bethlehem two years earlier, he had been taken to Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-38) and then to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).

Also, the star-like object which the Magi saw would have appeared so small that only people who knew all the visible stars extremely well, like the Magi, would have even noticed it in the sky as something new. For if it had been some big, bright object that anyone would have noticed as something new, then Herod wouldn't have asked the Magi when it had first appeared (Matthew 2:7). For he and everyone else would have been talking about it and wondering what it portended for the last two years (Matthew 2:16). Also, just as the Magi noticed something in the sky that nobody else noticed, and followed it to an endpoint, so eschatologists could notice something in the Word that nobody else has noticed and follow it to an endpoint (e.g. Daniel 12:11-12).

I painstakingly sat at my computer and viewed the sky over Bethlehem from 7BC to 1 AD, and there was no other candidate for the Star in the East appearing over Bethlehem.

Matthew 2:2,9 isn't referring to a common object in the sky as "the star in the east", but is referring to an unusual and tiny point of light in the sky, unnoticed by people (Matthew 2:7), that "the wise men from the east" (Matthew 2:1) had noticed while they were still in the east (Matthew 2:2,9).

The wise men from the east were from the Qumran community, due east of Jerusalem. Why would any other wise men be interested in the birth of a Jew?

The 7 messengers themselves aren't called stars, but are only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20)?

The seven star/messengers can only be the coordinates of the 7 Asian churches.

It's not hair-splitting, for Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 represented: Not any vectors of the seven cities in Revelation 1:11, but only the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in those seven cities, which were in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey. And these seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on the island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9), which is just off the coast of western Turkey. For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

No messengers were sent by the 7 Asian churches to Patmos.

That doesn't require that they didn't exist in his time.

LOL. It does require that some of the 7 Asian churches did not exist at the time of Paul.

Nothing require that they didn't all exist long before that time.

There is no record of some of the Asian churches before the 90's.

The very last part of Revelation 1:20 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "seven churches" in order for it to be referring to the same seven churches as just mentioned earlier in Revelation 1:20, and in Revelation 1:11, just as, for example, Revelation 1:13 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "Son of man" in order for it to be referring to the Son of man (John 13:31).

It would be considered bad Greek if John meant that the seven churches in Asia were the seven golden lampstands. John was well versed in Greek and would have not made that mistake.

Can you paste an image of the map? Also, what requires that it's accurate, and that other, differing maps aren't?



More than one, and none shows that the locations of the 7 churches in Revelation 1:11b formed anything but an imperfect triangle. Why don't you paste an image of how you see them forming a dove, and indicate what verse that would relate to?

OK, you asked for it. Here is an image from my book:
part1wc2

Then the woman in Revelation 12 doesn't have to be a woman, just as the man in Revelation 6:2 doesn't have to be a man, but can represent the gospel. Also, regarding the woman in Revelation 12 representing Mary, the mother of Jesus, that isn't the case. For in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, because Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from four different angles what will happen right before the start and during the same future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:11). The crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28). Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus) (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven: Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

God's new chosen people (i.e., Christians) remained in the wilderness for 1260 years.

How does that fulfill the famines of Revelation 6:5-6?

There are no famines. Adjust for inflation.

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent second coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

John meant that the things in the main body of the Revelation would begin unfolding with speed.

Nothing in Revelation refers to global warming.

Do you think the sun itself, after billions of years being at the same temperature, is suddenly going to get hotter?

How is it obvious that those verses require a "Battle of" Armageddon?

Nothing could be any plainer.

Who has said that there's anything of military value at Mount Megiddo currently, except a large valley below it that could be used as only a staging area, rather than the place of battle?

Why are you still splitting hairs when we both say that the final battle will take place in Jerusalem?

Don't news websites have accessible archives?

No.

What empire was Constantinople ruling when it was defeated?

The eastern Roman Empire, also called the Byzantine Empire.

It could still last until Jesus returns, just as it lasted when Washington DC fell in the War of 1812.

It's a moot point. The US will reign for a thousand years.

Based on what scripture?

The history books say the first two horsemen did, plus the 5th horseman also reigns for a thousand years.

Then, what requires that the Holy Roman Empire was defeated (by whatever means) by Napoleon in 1806? Also, how does its defeat relate to any
scripture?

All I know is, the Holy Roman empire was defeated in 1806, a little over thousand years after its founding.

Yes, many, and nothing they taught showed that the details of Revelation chapters 6 to 14 have ever been fulfilled.

Do none of them mention the sign of the Son of Man that appeared in the clouds, or the coming of St. Constantine, the first Christian conqueror?

What requires that the first plague/vial (Revelation 16:2) is skin cancer?

What else could it be? There are more cases of skin cancer every year than all other forms of cancer combined.

 

[shturt678]

Regarding Luke 11:21-22, the "strong man" isn't Satan himself, but refers to "strong man" individual demons/unclean spirits which possess individual people.

You have a heart for the Lord and you, of all Christians, please try and get this. Lk.11:21, 22 is the best syllogistic illustration that I can find in the Scriptures teaching youths just basic Koine 100, not even 101, which is all Greek to me of course, however now merged with a little senior type English.

Google up "syllogism," back in my day, no internet and had to dodge pieces of chalk and erasers that were tossed, with accuracy, at me in classrooms, you have it easy. Off thread just for a moment for a point Lk.11:21, 22, the illustration is so transparent as to need no elucidation Bible2. The two "whenever" generalize the illustration: this always occurs as here stated, which no one will deny. The tertium in the illustration is the fact that complete defeat must precede the act of plundering - God's Kingdom must have come before demoniacs could be liberated as Jesus was liberating them. for Jesus!!!

A syllogism underlies the illustration and its obvious application to Jesus and Satan my friend Bible2. Major premise: Only complete victory allows plundering at will; minor premise: Jesus plunder Stan at will, thank you Jesus!!; conclusion: Jesus achieved complete victory over Satan. Our precious Boss has some power Bible2, even compassion for us. My end point is that it is this inexorable logic that lends such force to the illustration which the recipients understood that day, and we should today.

Regarding at the Cross, Colossians 2:15, Hebrews 2:14-15, and 1 John 3:8b make no reference to the binding of Satan and his being "shut up", that is, enclosed within, the literal bottomless pit by an angel, which won't occur until Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

Would love to tear into the former paragraph, but old and ran out of energy. Let me take a breather. Just you ol' friend Jack.

 

[Ronald]

America is Babylon!

Partially. Remember God confused their language and dispersed Babylon throughout the world. The "mother" of harlots who spread her harlots throughout and corrupted every city. The beast has manisfested itself in many kingdoms as stated: Medo-Persian, Greek, Rome and we can see the harlots of her offspring spread in the whole world. So, Babylon is the world system -- not Jerusalem, not Rome, not New York nor any one city. Portions of Rev. 18 reflect history as other referrences in Revelation reflect events of the past. Are Russia, China, India, Africa, Europe and all their cities not corrupt? Get off naming one city-- it is the entire world system.
The city Babylon was great for 2000 years then emptied and died by the third century B.C. and as described in Rev. 18 it never amounted to anything since. The personification as the Mother of harlots, spiritually is evil manifested throughout the world and so many of her daughters took up residence in thousands of cities. When she is destroyed, it means evil as a whole will be destroyed after the GT.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 625:

On the day that the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.

The sign of the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 hasn't yet appeared in the clouds, for it won't appear until Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30). Also, Jesus came into power as a man at his resurrection as a man (Matthew 28:18, Luke 24:39). Also, can you quote and reference your historical source which says that Constantine rode a white horse and conquered with a bow?

There are also false prophets.

Who are you referring to as false prophets?

Jesus has already returned with His kingdom (in 312 AD).

Jesus didn't return in 312 AD, and the millennial, physical aspect of his kingdom won't begin until he does return and he bodily-resurrects the church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus was talking about a literal sword, which kills people.

Jesus makes no reference to the "sword" in Matthew 10:34-37 killing people.

Let's get back to the OP.

While the corrupt aspects of the U.S. (and of other countries) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:7,9,10). Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (compare Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the second leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the third leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the first century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all three legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' second coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And two nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadists? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadist attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world? And besides nuking Washington DC and New York City, could the cabal also nuke Los Angeles, destroying the major west coast port of the U.S.? And could the "Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for pornographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the second coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a third Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his thousand-year physical reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

interpreter said in post 625:

Do you deny that the US was founded by George Washington who rode a pale horse, or that our weapons bring hell and death?

The weapons of various countries bring hell and death. Also, can you quote and reference your historical source that says that George Washington rode "a pale horse"? Also, in Revelation 6:8, the original Greek word (chloros, G5515) translated as "pale" is translated in Revelation 8:7, Revelation 9:4, and Mark 6:39 as "green". For the word means "greenish" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), as it's based on the Greek word (chloe, G5514), which means "green". Did George Washington ride a greenish horse? Also, the name of the rider of the horse in Revelation 6:8 is "Death", not "George Washington". Also, the rider of the horse in Revelation 6:8 is accompanied by another personage named "Hell". Who are you claiming this second personage is? Also, together they kill a fourth of the world with war, famine, and "the beasts of the earth". When did George Washington and a second individual do that?

I painstakingly sat at my computer and viewed the sky over Bethlehem from 7BC to 1 AD, and there was no other candidate for the Star in the East appearing over Bethlehem.

What astronomy software would show an angel? Also, what verse requires that the "star" in Matthew 2 was over Bethlehem? Also, Matthew 2:2,9 isn't referring to a common object in the sky as "the star in the east", but is referring to an unusual and tiny point of light in the sky, unnoticed by people (Matthew 2:7), that "the wise men from the east" (Matthew 2:1) had noticed while they were still in the east (Matthew 2:2,9).

The wise men from the east were from the Qumran community, due east of Jerusalem.

Can you quote and reference your historical source which says that the wise men in Matthew 2 were from Qumran?

Why would any other wise men be interested in the birth of a Jew?

The wise men were interested in the birth of only the King of the Jews (Matthew 2:2). And they came to worship him (Matthew 2:2), something no Jews at that time would do, unless they believed that he was YHWH God (cf. Matthew 4:10). If the wise men were from Persia, they could have believed what YHWH had told the great Persian King Cyrus: that he (YHWH) is the true God (Isaiah 45:1-6).

The seven star/messengers can only be the coordinates of the 7 Asian churches.

Why can't the seven messengers in Revelation 1:20 be seven human messengers?

No messengers were sent by the 7 Asian churches to Patmos.

How has it been proven that no messengers were sent by the 7 churches to Patmos?

It does require that some of the 7 Asian churches did not exist at the time of Paul.

How does some of the 7 churches not being mentioned by Paul require that they didn't exist in his time?

There is no record of some of the Asian churches before the 90's.

How does that prove that they all didn't exist in the time of Paul?

It would be considered bad Greek if John meant that the seven churches in Asia were the seven golden lampstands. John was well versed in Greek and would have not made that mistake.

Just as it wasn't bad Greek for John to omit a "the" in the original Greek before "Son of man" in Revelation 1:13, when he was referring to the Son of man (John 13:31), so it wasn't bad Greek for John to omit a "the" in the original Greek before "seven churches" in the very last part of Revelation 1:20, when he was referring to the same seven churches as just mentioned earlier in Revelation 1:20, and in Revelation 1:11.

OK, you asked for it. Here is an image from my book:
part1wc2

Sorry, don't see a dove there, just a dented triangle.

God's new chosen people (i.e., Christians) remained in the wilderness for 1260 years.

When did Christians remain in the wilderness for 1,260 years? And what verse refers to 1,260 "years"?

There are no famines. Adjust for inflation.

There's no fiat money to inflate in Revelation 6:5-6.

John meant that the things in the main body of the Revelation would begin unfolding with speed.

What verse requires that Revelation 1:1 meant that the things in the main body of Revelation would begin unfolding with speed?

Do you think the sun itself, after billions of years being at the same temperature, is suddenly going to get hotter?

The sun could suddenly get hotter, just as it could suddenly shoot out a blob of its plasma at the earth, if a vial of God's wrath makes it do that (Revelation 16:8-9).

Nothing could be any plainer.

How is it plain that Revelation 16:12-16 requires a "Battle of" Armageddon?

Why are you still splitting hairs when we both say that the final battle will take place in Jerusalem?

It's not splitting hairs, but staying true to the fact that Armageddon isn't Jerusalem, but a place in northern Israel.

The eastern Roman Empire, also called the Byzantine Empire.

How much of the Byzantine Empire still existed at the time that Constantinople was defeated?

The US will reign for a thousand years.

What scripture requires that the U.S. will reign for a thousand years? Also, reign over what?

The history books say the first tww horsemen did, plus the 5th horseman also reigns for a thousand years.

What scripture requires that the first two horsemen were empires that reigned for a thousand years? Also, what about the third horseman?

All I know is, the Holy Roman empire was defeated in 1806, a little over thousand years after its founding.

What requires that the Holy Roman Empire was defeated in 1806, instead of sometime before or after that? Also, how does its defeat, or the timing of its defeat, relate to any scripture?

Do none of them mention the sign of the Son of Man that appeared in the clouds, or the coming of St. Constantine, the first Christian conqueror?

Can you quote and reference a history book that says that Matthew 24:30 was fulfilled at the time of Constantine, or that he fulfilled any scripture?

What else could it be?

In Revelation 16:2, the original Greek word (helkos, G1668) translated as "a sore" means "an ulcer" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). So the sore could be a festering skin ulcer. It could appear right at the place on the skin where people had received the Antichrist's mark on either their right hand or their forehead (Revelation 13:16, Revelation 16:2).

There are more cases of skin cancer every year than all other forms of cancer combined.

How would that relate to any scripture?

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 626:

God's Kingdom must have come before demoniacs could be liberated as Jesus was liberating them.

At the time Jesus spoke Luke 11:21-22, God's kingdom had indeed come (Luke 11:20), but only spiritually (Luke 17:21, Romans 14:17), not yet physically (Luke 22:18,30), as it will during the millennium (Revelation 20:1-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14).

 

[shturt678]

At the time Jesus spoke Luke 11:21-22, God's kingdom had indeed come (Luke 11:20), but only spiritually (Luke 17:21, Romans 14:17), not yet physically (Luke 22:18,30), as it will during the millennium (Revelation 20:1-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14).

I have nothing personally against Jesuits, but I have something against the words of those that perpetuate their 1590 agenda..."Futurism," ie, Mr. Ribera. Did you attend or study under the Jesuits at any time? I'm just curious as to why you keep their old agenda going? IOW, is it for economic gain to look forward to a false "Millennial"? If it is, then I can understand. Come to Hawaii and we'll work this out to the point you will become a Lutheran for sure, ie, between "Preterism" and "Futurism," like in between, now is the so called "Millennial." Sorry, Bible2, have to snap you out of this encapsulation, your the kind of Christian that Lutherans need, you care! Thank you Bible2, my friend.

 

[interpreter]

The sign of the Son of man in Matthew 24:30 hasn't yet appeared in the clouds, for it won't appear until Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30). Also, Jesus came into power as a man at his resurrection as a man (Matthew 28:18, Luke 24:39). Also, can you quote and reference your historical source which says that Constantine rode a white horse and conquered with a bow?

The history books say that Constantine, in his triumphant entry into Rome, rode in a chariot drawn by 7 white horses.

Who are you referring to as false prophets?

The false prophets of WW II were either Italy and Germany, or else the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church.

Jesus didn't return in 312 AD, and the millennial, physical aspect of his kingdom won't begin until he does return and he bodily-resurrects the church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

There are two comings.

Jesus makes no reference to the "sword" in Matthew 10:34-37 killing people.

He does in Luke 19:27.

While the corrupt aspects of the U.S. (and of other countries) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:7,9,10). Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (compare Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the second leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the third leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the first century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all three legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' second coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And two nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadists? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadist attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world? And besides nuking Washington DC and New York City, could the cabal also nuke Los Angeles, destroying the major west coast port of the U.S.? And could the "Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for pornographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the second coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a third Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his thousand-year physical reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).



The weapons of various countries bring hell and death. Also, can you quote and reference your historical source that says that George Washington rode "a pale horse"? Also, in Revelation 6:8, the original Greek word (chloros, G5515) translated as "pale" is translated in Revelation 8:7, Revelation 9:4, and Mark 6:39 as "green". For the word means "greenish" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), as it's based on the Greek word (chloe, G5514), which means "green". Did George Washington ride a greenish horse? Also, the name of the rider of the horse in Revelation 6:8 is "Death", not "George Washington". Also, the rider of the horse in Revelation 6:8 is accompanied by another personage named "Hell". Who are you claiming this second personage is? Also, together they kill a fourth of the world with war, famine, and "the beasts of the earth". When did George Washington and a second individual do that?

The US has fulfilled all the prophecies concerning the 4th Horseman

What astronomy software would show an angel? Also, what verse requires that the "star" in Matthew 2 was over Bethlehem? Also, Matthew 2:2,9 isn't referring to a common object in the sky as "the star in the east", but is referring to an unusual and tiny point of light in the sky, unnoticed by people (Matthew 2:7), that "the wise men from the east" (Matthew 2:1) had noticed while they were still in the east (Matthew 2:2,9).

The astronomy software also displayed an appearance of Venus over the Hill country of Jusea when John the Baptist was born. (Venus was also known as the Dayspring star). It turns out that March 27, 4BC marked the first day on the Jew's sacred calendar, and the birthday of John the Baptist marked the first day of the Jew's secular calendar. Thus, the Morning Stars sang together, fulfilling a prophecy in Job.

Can you quote and reference your historical source which says that the wise men in Matthew 2 were from Qumran?

They were probably the calendar keepers.

The wise men were interested in the birth of only the King of the Jews (Matthew 2:2). And they came to worship him (Matthew 2:2), something no Jews at that time would do, unless they believed that he was YHWH God (cf. Matthew 4:10). If the wise men were from Persia, they could have believed what YHWH had told the great Persian King Cyrus: that he (YHWH) is the true God (Isaiah 45:1-6).

No wise man from another country would come to worship a Jew.

Why can't the seven messengers in Revelation 1:20 be seven human messengers?

It makes no sense that human messengers would be called stars.

How has it been proven that no messengers were sent by the 7 churches to Patmos?

There is no historical evidence.

How does some of the 7 churches not being mentioned by Paul require that they didn't exist in his time?



How does that prove that they all didn't exist in the time of Paul?

He mentioned every church that existed at the time, including some other churches in Asia. Why weren't the other churches in Asia called stars?

Just as it wasn't bad Greek for John to omit a "the" in the original Greek before "Son of man" in Revelation 1:13, when he was referring to the Son of man (John 13:31), so it wasn't bad Greek for John to omit a "the" in the original Greek before "seven churches" in the very last part of Revelation 1:20, when he was referring to the same seven churches as just mentioned earlier in Revelation 1:20, and in Revelation 1:11.

The seven golden lampstands are the "things which will take place after this."

Sorry, don't see a dove there, just a dented triangle.

Did you see the sharp two-edged sword?

When did Christians remain in the wilderness for 1,260 years? And what verse refers to 1,260 "years"?

Christians (and Jews) remained in the wilderness for 1260 while the 7th head of the beast was trampling Jerusalem.

There's no fiat money to inflate in Revelation 6:5-6.

What is a denarius worth today? Certainly not a day's wages.

What verse requires that Revelation 1:1 meant that the things in the main body of Revelation would begin unfolding with speed?

I hold the historicist view.

The sun could suddenly get hotter, just as it could suddenly shoot out a blob of its plasma at the earth, if a vial of God's wrath makes it do that (Revelation 16:8-9).

So you're saying the sun is going to suddenly do something it has not done in it's billions of years of existence?

How is it plain that Revelation 16:12-16 requires a "Battle of" Armageddon?

That's what it has been called for nearly 2000 years.

It's not splitting hairs, but staying true to the fact that Armageddon isn't Jerusalem, but a place in northern Israel.

You are evidently staying true to a lie. Are You saying that Jerusalem is not the Place of God?

How much of the Byzantine Empire still existed at the time that Constantinople was defeated?

I don't know. Maybe half of it.

What scripture requires that the U.S. will reign for a thousand years? Also, reign over what?

If the other horsemen are any guide, the US will reign for a thousand years. The US and its allies rule over the earth.

What scripture requires that the first two horsemen were empires that reigned for a thousand years? Also, what about the third horseman?

Just as the first kingdom of God (i.e., Israel) lasted for 1000 years, so do all subsequent kingdoms of God (Christian nations).

What requires that the Holy Roman Empire was defeated in 1806, instead of sometime before or after that? Also, how does its defeat, or the timing of its defeat, relate to any scripture?

I'm just telling you what all the history books say. All of the 5 horsemen rule for a millennium.

Can you quote and reference a history book that says that Matthew 24:30 was fulfilled at the time of Constantine, or that he fulfilled any scripture?

They say that the sign of the Son of man appeared in the clouds on Oct.28th, 312 AD, and that day is known as the turning point history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.

In Revelation 16:2, the original Greek word (helkos, G1668) translated as "a sore" means "an ulcer" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). So the sore could be a festering skin ulcer. It could appear right at the place on the skin where people had received the Antichrist's mark on either their right hand or their forehead (Revelation 13:16, Revelation 16:2).

The Revelation is clearly describing skin cancer.

How would that relate to any scripture?

Skin cancer is a major plague.

 

[shturt678]

....we have the "Preterite" group on one end, and the "Futuristic" group on the other. They're making me dizzy, going from way back there, to way in the future, both out of touch with the reality of today. They're caring overrides all the former. My end point: There must be one, out of almost 7 billion, out there that also interprets historically, but synchronous, ie., from the 1st century till Jesus' "one" Return, including the reality of Revelation for what's happening today.

Simply look at Babylon in Rev.14:8, is this really America or is America just the sore toe in the scheme of things, where the head is "the total antichristian empire = Great harlot, which symbolizes the antichristian seduction TODAY! Just need some dialectical skills here? We can do it together.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 631:

The history books say that Constantine, in his triumphant entry into Rome, rode in a chariot drawn by 7 white horses.

What scripture would be fulfilled by Constantine riding in a chariot drawn by 7 white horses?

interpreter said in post 631:

The false prophets of WW II were either Italy and Germany, or else the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church.

How were Italy and Germany, or the RCC and the Lutheran church, false prophets during World War II?

interpreter said in post 631:

There are two comings.

If you mean two future comings of Jesus, what scripture teaches or requires that?

interpreter said in post 631:

He does in Luke 19:27.

Luke 19:27 won't occur until Jesus returns and finally-judges believers of all times (Luke 19:15-27).

interpreter said in post 631:

The US has fulfilled all the prophecies concerning the 4th Horseman

How has the U.S. fulfilled all the details of Revelation 6:8?

interpreter said in post 631:

The astronomy software also displayed an appearance of Venus over the Hill country of Jusea when John the Baptist was born. (Venus was also known as the Dayspring star). It turns out that March 27, 4BC marked the first day on the Jew's sacred calendar, and the birthday of John the Baptist marked the first day of the Jew's secular calendar.

What scripture would by fulfilled by John the Baptist being born while Venus was over Judaea, or by him being born on the first day of the Jews' secular calendar? Also, can you quote and reference the historical source that gives the date of his birth?

interpreter said in post 631:

Thus, the Morning Stars sang together, fulfilling a prophecy in Job.

Job 38:7 refers to when the earth was created (Job 38:4-7).

interpreter said in post 631:

They were probably the calendar keepers.

Can you quote and reference your historical source which says that either the wise men in Matthew 2 or the inhabitants of Qumran were probably the keepers of the Jewish calendar?

interpreter said in post 631:

No wise man from another country would come to worship a Jew.

Wise men from another country would come to worship a newborn King of the Jews, if they believed that he was the true God.

interpreter said in post 631:

It makes no sense that human messengers would be called stars.

The 7 messengers themselves weren't called stars, but were only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20).

interpreter said in post 631:

There is no historical evidence.

How does there being no historical evidence that 7 messengers were sent by the 7 churches to Patmos in Revelation 1 prove that they weren't?

interpreter said in post 631:

He mentioned every church that existed at the time, including some other churches in Asia.

How has it been proven that Paul mentioned in his New Testament epistles every church in Roman "Asia" that existed in his time?

interpreter said in post 631:

Why weren't the other churches in Asia called stars?

Note that no churches in Roman "Asia" were called stars.

interpreter said in post 631:

The seven golden lampstands are the "things which will take place after this."

What verse requires that the seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) were the "things which will take place after this" (Revelation 1:19-20), instead of those things being the same as in Revelation 4:1b, that is, all the still-future events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22?

interpreter said in post 631:

Did you see the sharp two-edged sword?

No, sorry, neither a dove, nor a sharp, two-edged sword was seen at part1wc2 . Can you describe how they appear there?

interpreter said in post 631:

Christians (and Jews) remained in the wilderness for 1260 while the 7th head of the beast was trampling Jerusalem.

If by the 7th head of the beast you mean Islam, how were Christians and Jews in the wilderness for 1,260 (years) while Islam was trampling Jerusalem? Also, Revelation 11:2 refers to forty-two "months", not 1,260 years. Also, the trampling of Jerusalem for forty-two months (Revelation 11:2b) is just one of the many details of Revelation chapters 11 to 14, which show a 1,260-day time period from four different angles (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). So how were all the myriad other details in these chapters fulfilled by Islam, or something else?

Also, you have said before that the trampling of Jerusalem ended in 1945 with the beginning of British rule under the British mandate. But British rule over Jerusalem began in 1917, and the British Mandate came into legal effect in 1923, not in 1945. Also, how was British rule not a Gentile trampling if Muslim rule was? For Gentiles in the church are still considered Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), and the British didn't give Jerusalem back to the Jews in 1945. The Jews didn't take back western Jerusalem until 1948, and they didn't take back East Jerusalem until 1967. Also, you have said before that your interpretation of the trampling in Revelation 11:2 began with the building of the Dome of the Rock. So if the trampling is the Dome of the Rock, how did the trampling end in 1945, when the Dome of the Rock is still there?

interpreter said in post 631:

What is a denarius worth today? Certainly not a day's wages.

Why can't the "denarion" referred to Revelation 6:6 (Greek) still represent a day's wages today, just as the "choinix" of wheat referred to Revelation 6:6 can still represent about a quart of wheat today?

interpreter said in post 631:

I hold the historicist view.

Based on what verses do you hold the historicist view?

interpreter said in post 631:

So you're saying the sun is going to suddenly do something it has not done in it's billions of years of existence?

The sun could do something unusual if a vial of God's wrath makes the sun do it (Revelation 16:8-9).

interpreter said in post 631:

That's what it has been called for nearly 2000 years.

Can you quote and reference some 2,000-year-old references to a "Battle of" Armageddon, and show how Revelation 16:12-16 requires one?

interpreter said in post 631:

You are evidently staying true to a lie.

How has it been proven to be a lie that Armageddon isn't Jerusalem, but a place in northern Israel?

interpreter said in post 631:

Are You saying that Jerusalem is not the Place of God?

No, just that "Armageddon" doesn't mean "the Place of God".

interpreter said in post 631:

I don't know. Maybe half of it.

Can you quote and reference an historical source that would support the idea that maybe half of the Byzantine Empire still existed at the time that Constantinople was defeated? If you can't do that, then why would you have that idea? Also, how did the defeat of Constantinople fulfill any scripture?

interpreter said in post 631:

If the other horsemen are any guide, the US will reign for a thousand years.

What scripture requires that the first three horsemen were empires that reigned for a thousand years?

interpreter said in post 631:

The US and its allies rule over the earth.

How do the U.S. and its allies rule over the earth? For example, how are they ruling over Syria, or China, or Iran, or North Korea?

interpreter said in post 631:

Just as the first kingdom of God (i.e., Israel) lasted for 1000 years, so do all subsequent kingdoms of God (Christian nations).

How did the kingdom of Israel last for 1,000 years? Also, what verse requires that any "Christian nation", besides the bodily-resurrected church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), will reign for 1,000 years? Also, what verse requires that any current nation, besides the church throughout the world (1 Peter 2:9), is considered by God to be a "Christian nation"?

interpreter said in post 631:

I'm just telling you what all the history books say.

Can you quote and reference some history books that say that the Holy Roman Empire was defeated in 1806, instead of sometime before or after that, and that say that the timing of its defeat fulfilled any scripture?

interpreter said in post 631:

All of the 5 horsemen rule for a millennium.

Based on what scripture do you believe that all of the 5 horsemen rule for a millennium?

interpreter said in post 631:

They say that the sign of the Son of man appeared in the clouds on Oct.28th, 312 AD, and that day is known as the turning point history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.

Can you quote and reference some history books that say that the sign of the Son of man referred to in Matthew 24:30 was fulfilled at the time of Constantine, or that he, or any nation considered by God to be a "Christian nation" since his time, has fulfilled any scripture?

The truth is that Matthew 24:30 has never happened, for it refers to Jesus' second coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

interpreter said in post 631:

The Revelation is clearly describing skin cancer.

What part of Revelation 16:2 requires that it's clearly describing skin cancer, instead of it referring to something else, like skin ulcers?

The truth is that Revelation 16:2 refers to awful sores which don't have to be cancerous, and which will appear on only those people, and on all those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). And these people will include all races, for the Antichrist will be worshipped by all races of the earth (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:3b-4). Neither the Antichrist, nor his mark, nor his image has come yet (Revelation 13:4-18). So the first vial (Revelation 16:2) can't have happened yet.

interpreter said in post 631:

Skin cancer is a major plague.

How would skin cancer being a major plague fulfill any scripture?

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 632:

Simply look at Babylon in Rev.14:8, is this really America or is America just the sore toe in the scheme of things, where the head is "the total antichristian empire = Great harlot, which symbolizes the antichristian seduction TODAY!

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) doesn't represent the Antichrist's future empire (Revelation 13:4-18), but all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his ten kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [that is, Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his second coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent thousand years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the thousand years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

shturt678 said in post 632:

Simply look at Babylon in Rev.14:8, is this really America or is America just the sore toe in the scheme of things, where the head is "the total antichristian empire = Great harlot, which symbolizes the antichristian seduction TODAY!

Regarding "the antichristian seduction", it's important for Christians to realize that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will worship both Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' second coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' second coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could lie and say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 630:

I have nothing personally against Jesuits, but I have something against the words of those that perpetuate their 1590 agenda..."Futurism," ie, Mr. Ribera.

Futurism per se is based on the scriptures themselves, i.e. the fact that the myriad details of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 and Matthew 24 find no historical fulfillment.

shturt678 said in post 630:

Did you attend or study under the Jesuits at any time?

No.

shturt678 said in post 630:

I'm just curious as to why you keep their old agenda going?

What agenda? What Jesuit says that a pope could become the Antichrist's False Prophet, or that the Catholic Church (like other churches) has corrupt aspects which are included in what the harlot Babylon represents?

shturt678 said in post 630:

IOW, is it for economic gain to look forward to a false "Millennial"?

What economic gain? And how has the idea of the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) being proven false?

shturt678 said in post 630:

Come to Hawaii and we'll work this out to the point you will become a Lutheran for sure, ie, between "Preterism" and "Futurism," like in between, now is the so called "Millennial."

The millennium isn't now, for there are at least eight different scriptural reasons for reading Revelation 20:4-6 as not occurring until after Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the thousand years in Revelation 20:4-6 is the same as in Revelation 20:1-3, when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, for a thousand years, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the thousand years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' second coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the thousand years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the thousand years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and all the unsaved armies of the world, at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' second coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his second coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be spiritually resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church is resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the thousand years.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their foreheads or hands. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' second coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

 

[interpreter]

What scripture would be fulfilled by Constantine riding in a chariot drawn by 7 white horses?

The first horseman liked white horses

How were Italy and Germany, or the RCC and the Lutheran church, false prophets during World War II?

They supported Hitler, the antichrist.

If you mean two future comings of Jesus, what scripture teaches or requires that?

The Revelation can only be opened by the coming of Jesus. Then he comes again in chapters 19 and 20.

Luke 19:27 won't occur until Jesus returns and finally-judges believers of all times (Luke 19:15-27).

Note that Jesus does not do the killing. We do.

How has the U.S. fulfilled all the details of Revelation 6:8?

At some point in its history, the US has killed with swords, hunger (economic sanctions), death (from everything from bullets to bombs), beasts (either horses or tanks which may have looked like a beast to John). And it can well be argued that the US has waged war in a fourth of the earth.

What scripture would by fulfilled by John the Baptist being born while Venus was over Judaea, or by him being born on the first day of the Jews' secular calendar? Also, can you quote and reference the historical source that gives the date of his birth?

Venus, called the Dayspring in Luke's Gospel. appeared over the hill country of Judea when John was born.

Job 38:7 refers to when the earth was created (Job 38:4-7).

So, what other verse do you think the wise men had in mind concerning a star?

Can you quote and reference your historical source which says that either the wise men in Matthew 2 or the inhabitants of Qumran were probably the keepers of the Jewish calendar?

The calendar keepers were astronomers, and authored some of the dead sea scrolls.

Wise men from another country would come to worship a newborn King of the Jews, if they believed that he was the true God.

wrong. The wise men were Jews from the east looking for the Messiah.

The 7 messengers themselves weren't called stars, but were only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20).

There you go again, splitting hairs.

How does there being no historical evidence that 7 messengers were sent by the 7 churches to Patmos in Revelation 1 prove that they weren't?

There would have been a record of it.

How has it been proven that Paul mentioned in his New Testament epistles every church in Roman "Asia" that existed in his time?

Paul mentioned every church that existed at the time.

Note that no churches in Roman "Asia" were called stars.

Ther you go, splitting hairs again.

What verse requires that the seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) were the "things which will take place after this" (Revelation 1:19-20), instead of those things being the same as in Revelation 4:1b, that is, all the still-future events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22?

A prophetic vision must contain some element of the future. See Rev. 1:19

No, sorry, neither a dove, nor a sharp, two-edged sword was seen at part1wc2 . Can you describe how they appear there?

A picture is worth a thousand words.
The dove and sharp two-edged sword are clearly shown, and also the seven vectors that point to the seven golden lampstands.

If by the 7th head of the beast you mean Islam, how were Christians and Jews in the wilderness for 1,260 (years) while Islam was trampling Jerusalem? Also, Revelation 11:2 refers to forty-two "months", not 1,260 years. Also, the trampling of Jerusalem for forty-two months (Revelation 11:2b) is just one of the many details of Revelation chapters 11 to 14, which show a 1,260-day time period from four different angles (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). So how were all the myriad other details in these chapters fulfilled by Islam, or something else?

Many of God's two witnesses migrated elsewhere.

Also, you have said before that the trampling of Jerusalem ended in 1945 with the beginning of British rule under the British mandate. But British rule over Jerusalem began in 1917, and the British Mandate came into legal effect in 1923, not in 1945. Also, how was British rule not a Gentile trampling if Muslim rule was? For Gentiles in the church are still considered Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), and the British didn't give Jerusalem back to the Jews in 1945. The Jews didn't take back western Jerusalem until 1948, and they didn't take back East Jerusalem until 1967. Also, you have said before that your interpretation of the trampling in Revelation 11:2 began with the building of the Dome of the Rock. So if the trampling is the Dome of the Rock, how did the trampling end in 1945, when the Dome of the Rock is still there?

I gave you a couple way of computing the 1260 years of trampling. Beginning in 1945, Jews came to be a majority in the western half of the Holy Land.

Why can't the "denarion" referred to Revelation 6:6 (Greek) still represent a day's wages today, just as the "choinix" of wheat referred to Revelation 6:6 can still represent about a quart of wheat today?

You must take inflation into account.

Based on what verses do you hold the historicist view?

Mainly 1:1,3

The sun could do something unusual if a vial of God's wrath makes the sun do it (Revelation 16:8-9).

All of the 7 last plagues are man-made, and are just punishment.

Can you quote and reference some 2,000-year-old references to a "Battle of" Armageddon, and show how Revelation 16:12-16 requires one?

There you go again, splitting hairs.

How has it been proven to be a lie that Armageddon isn't Jerusalem, but a place in northern Israel?



No, just that "Armageddon" doesn't mean "the Place of God".

I gave you a reference from Young's concordance. Ar Mageddon means City of the Place of God.

Can you quote and reference an historical source that would support the idea that maybe half of the Byzantine Empire still existed at the time that Constantinople was defeated? If you can't do that, then why would you have that idea? Also, how did the defeat of Constantinople fulfill any scripture?

It was a wild-ass guess. If it is important to you, why don't you google it?

What scripture requires that the first three horsemen were empires that reigned for a thousand years?

I said the first two. My source is the world history books.

How do the U.S. and its allies rule over the earth? For example, how are they ruling over Syria, or China, or Iran, or North Korea?

We are the policemen of the Earth.

How did the kingdom of Israel last for 1,000 years? Also, what verse requires that any "Christian nation", besides the bodily-resurrected church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), will reign for 1,000 years? Also, what verse requires that any current nation, besides the church throughout the world (1 Peter 2:9), is considered by God to be a "Christian nation"?

From 1000 BC until 70 AD minus the 70 years in captivity = 1000 years. Any legitimate kingdom of God lasts 1000 years.

Can you quote and reference some history books that say that the Holy Roman Empire was defeated in 1806, instead of sometime before or after that, and that say that the timing of its defeat fulfilled any scripture?

My Webster's Dictionary says the Holy Roman Empire existed from the 9th century until 1806

Based on what scripture do you believe that all of the 5 horsemen rule for a millennium?

Dating from the time of Israel, all legitimate kingdoms of God rule for a thousand years.

Can you quote and reference some history books that say that the sign of the Son of man referred to in Matthew 24:30 was fulfilled at the time of Constantine, or that he, or any nation considered by God to be a "Christian nation" since his time, has fulfilled any scripture?

They say that St. Constantine interpreted the sign in the sky to be a sign of the Son of Man.

The truth is that Matthew 24:30 has never happened, for it refers to Jesus' second coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Mat. 24:30 immediately follows the tribulation of John's day.

Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled in 325 AD when St. Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

What part of Revelation 16:2 requires that it's clearly describing skin cancer, instead of it referring to something else, like skin ulcers?

Is not skin cancer a skin ulcer? I fail to see the difference.

The truth is that Revelation 16:2 refers to awful sores which don't have to be cancerous, and which will appear on only those people, and on all those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). And these people will include all races, for the Antichrist will be worshipped by all races of the earth (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:3b-4). Neither the Antichrist, nor his mark, nor his image has come yet (Revelation 13:4-18). So the first vial (Revelation 16:2) can't have happened yet.

The first plague afflicts Aryans, the image worshiped by Hitler and his followers.

How would skin cancer being a major plague fulfill any scripture?

How can you ask the obvious?

 

[shturt678]

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) doesn't represent the Antichrist's future empire (Revelation 13:4-18), but all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

You have an astonishing and even stunning agape for the Word, I thank you for this. You appear to be a fine Christian, i.e., we need you on our team, i.e., Lutheranism. Enjoying and will be following along. Thank you again. Just ol' old non-modern Lutheran Jack.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 636:

They supported Hitler, the antichrist.

Hitler didn't fulfill the scriptures regarding the Antichrist (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18).

interpreter said in post 636:

The Revelation can only be opened by the coming of Jesus.

What scripture requires that Revelation can only be opened by the coming of Jesus? Also, Revelation is already opened, in the sense that it was never sealed (Revelation 22:10).

interpreter said in post 636:

Note that Jesus does not do the killing. We do.

Luke 19:27 is only a parable. Its details aren't meant to be read as contradicting the fact that at his second coming, Jesus alone will tread the winepress (Isaiah 63:3). Jesus alone will be the one who will defeat the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

interpreter said in post 636:

There would have been a record of it.

Revelation itself could be the record. For the "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

interpreter said in post 636:

Paul mentioned every church that existed at the time.

Again, how has it been proven that Paul mentioned in his New Testament epistles every church in Roman "Asia" that existed in his time?

interpreter said in post 636:

A prophetic vision must contain some element of the future. See Rev. 1:19

Again, what verse requires that the seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) were the "things which will take place after this" (Revelation 1:19-20), instead of those things being the same as in Revelation 4:1b, that is, all the still-future events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22?

interpreter said in post 636:

Many of God's two witnesses migrated elsewhere.

How did Christians and Jews fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-13?

interpreter said in post 636:

All of the 7 last plagues are man-made, and are just punishment.

What verse require that all of the 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) are man-made?

interpreter said in post 636:

I gave you a reference from Young's concordance. Ar Mageddon means City of the Place of God.

Where does Young's Concordance say that word is used in the Bible? Also, where does Young's Concordance say that place is? In Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, the Hebrew word "Megiddown" or "Megiddow" (H4023) refers to the place called "Megiddo", which is in northern Israel (Joshua 17:11, Judges 1:27, Judges 5:19; 1 Chronicles 7:29).

interpreter said in post 636:

I said the first two.

Then under your system, the third horseman doesn't reign for 1,000 years?

interpreter said in post 636:

We are the policemen of the Earth.

How do the U.S. and its allies police the entire earth? For example, how are they policing Syria, or China, or Iran, or North Korea?

interpreter said in post 636:

They say that St. Constantine interpreted the sign in the sky to be a sign of the Son of Man.

Can you quote from where some history books say that? Also, do they say that Constantine interpreted a sign in the sky to be the sign of the Son of Man referred to in Matthew 24:30?

interpreter said in post 636:

Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled in 325 AD when St. Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

Matthew 24:31, like 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, doesn't refer to the gathering together of only some leaders of the church to Nicaea, but to the gathering together of everyone in the church at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) into the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

interpreter said in post 636:

Is not skin cancer a skin ulcer?

A skin ulcer doesn't have to be cancerous.

interpreter said in post 636:

The first plague afflicts Aryans, the image worshiped by Hitler.

Most Aryans don't get skin cancer. And skin cancer isn't limited to Aryans, and can be even more deadly in non-Aryans. Also, the first vial (Revelation 16:2) refers to awful sores which don't have to be cancerous, and which will appear on only those people, and on all those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). And these people will include all races, for the Antichrist will be worshipped by all races of the earth (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:3b-4). Neither the Antichrist, nor his mark, nor his image has come yet (Revelation 13:4-18). So the first vial (Revelation 16:2) can't have happened yet.

interpreter said in post 636:

The first plague afflicts Aryans, the image worshiped by Hitler.

Regarding "Aryans, the image worshiped by Hitler the antichrist", are you referring to "the image of the beast" in Revelation 13:15? If so, how do Aryans fulfill the details regarding the image of the beast in Revelation 13:14-15, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 16:2, and Revelation 15:2? Also, what scripture refers to the image of the beast being worshipped by the Antichrist?

 

[interpreter]

Hitler didn't fulfill the scriptures regarding the Antichrist (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18).

He did. If the 7 last plagues are now being poured out, then the antichrist is behind us.

What scripture requires that Revelation can only be opened by the coming of Jesus? Also, Revelation is already opened, in the sense that it was never sealed (Revelation 22:10).

See Rev. 5:4-5

Luke 19:27 is only a parable. Its details aren't meant to be read as contradicting the fact that at his second coming, Jesus alone will tread the winepress (Isaiah 63:3). Jesus alone will be the one who will defeat the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus is the king of the parable. Luke 19:27 is a commandment.

Revelation itself could be the record. For the "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

The messengers can also refer to the star-like coordinates of the 7 Asian churches.

Again, how has it been proven that Paul mentioned in his New Testament epistles every church in Roman "Asia" that existed in his time?

Paul saw it as his job to oversee all churches outside of Jerusalem.

Again, what verse requires that the seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) were the "things which will take place after this" (Revelation 1:19-20), instead of those things being the same as in Revelation 4:1b, that is, all the still-future events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22?

What would be the reason for the vision if it didn't predict the future?

How did Christians and Jews fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-13?

They shut up heaven.

What verse require that all of the 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) are man-made?

It's just an observation. Skin cancer is caused by the depletion of the ozone layer which is man-made. Red tides are caused by dams and fertilizer run-off which is man-made. And global warming is caused by an increase in greenhouse gasses, which are man-made. And the Euphrates was dried up by one man, Saddam Hussein.

Where does Young's Concordance say that word is used in the Bible? Also, where does Young's Concordance say that place is? In Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, the Hebrew word "Megiddown" or "Megiddow" (H4023) refers to the place called "Megiddo", which is in northern Israel (Joshua 17:11, Judges 1:27, Judges 5:19; 1 Chronicles 7:29).

There is no reason to mass armies at Mt. Megiddo.

Then under your system, the third horseman doesn't reign for 1,000 years?

The third horseman, i.e, Great Britain, probably will reign for a thousand years. But I was referring to the horsemen that have already reigned for a thousand years.

How do the U.S. and its allies police the entire earth? For example, how are they policing Syria, or China, or Iran, or North Korea?

We are close to policing Syria, and we already police North Korea and Iran (with sanctions) and if that is not enough, we will go to war with them. There is presently no need to police China.

Can you quote from where some history books say that? Also, do they say that Constantine interpreted a sign in the sky to be the sign of the Son of Man referred to in Matthew 24:30?

They say that Jesus appeared to Constantine in a vision that night and told him, By this sign conquer.

Matthew 24:31, like 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, doesn't refer to the gathering together of only some leaders of the church to Nicaea, but to the gathering together of everyone in the church at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) into the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Mat. 24:31 predicts the gathering of all the elected leaders of the Church, to Nicea.

A skin ulcer doesn't have to be cancerous.

Why would a non-cancerous skin ulcer be worthy of mention?

Most Aryans don't get skin cancer. And skin cancer isn't limited to Aryans, and can be even more deadly in non-Aryans. Also, the first vial (Revelation 16:2) refers to awful sores which don't have to be cancerous, and which will appear on only those people, and on all those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). And these people will include all races, for the Antichrist will be worshipped by all races of the earth (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:3b-4). Neither the Antichrist, nor his mark, nor his image has come yet (Revelation 13:4-18). So the first vial (Revelation 16:2) can't have happened yet.



Regarding "Aryans, the image worshiped by Hitler the antichrist", are you referring to "the image of the beast" in Revelation 13:15? If so, how do Aryans fulfill the details regarding the image of the beast in Revelation 13:14-15, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 16:2, and Revelation 15:2? Also, what scripture refers to the image of the beast being worshipped by the Antichrist?

The Aryan race is the image worshiped by Hitler and his followers, and most Aryans get skin cancer if they live long enough (whereas, blacks account for 2 % of skin cancer cases).

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 639:

He did.

How did Hitler fulfill the scriptures regarding the Antichrist (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15)?

interpreter said in post 639:

If the 7 last plagues are now being poured out, then the antichrist is behind us.

The world won't experience the seven last plagues (Revelation 15:1) of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16, Revelation 21:9), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the not-yet-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the second vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the third vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the fourth vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the fifth vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the sixth vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (that is, the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the seventh vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and hundred-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The seventh vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

interpreter said in post 639:

See Rev. 5:4-5

Note that Revelation 5:4-5 doesn't refer to a coming of Jesus to the earth, but refers to him still in heaven (Revelation 5:6-7). Also, all of Revelation is already unsealed in the sense of all of it being able to be understood by believers, for it was never sealed in that sense (Revelation 22:10). What Revelation 6 refers to is Jesus' unsealing events in the sense of letting them happen at that time.

interpreter said in post 639:

Jesus is the king of the parable.

Jesus is indeed the king in the parable of Luke 19:27. But Luke 19:27 won't occur until Jesus returns and finally-judges believers of all times (Luke
19:15-27).

interpreter said in post 639:

Luke 19:27 is a commandment.

Luke 19:27b isn't a commandment to Christians, for they're commanded elsewhere never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39,44, Romans 13:10, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 26:52; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5). Instead, Luke 19:27b must jump ahead to when Jesus will send forth his angels to cast all the unsaved of all times into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40-42, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 14:10).

interpreter said in post 639:

Paul saw it as his job to oversee all churches outside of Jerusalem.

Can you reference the verse which you feel requires that Paul saw it as his job to oversee all churches outside of Jerusalem? Also, even if he did, how would that require that that he mention in his New Testament epistles every church in Roman "Asia" that existed in his time?

interpreter said in post 639:

What would be the reason for the vision if it didn't predict the future?

Do you mean the vision only in Revelation 1? If so, the purpose of the vision in that chapter would be to introduce the ultimate source (i.e. Jesus) of all the subsequent visions in Revelation, which did predict the future (from the time that John saw the visions).

interpreter said in post 639:

They shut up heaven.

How did Christians and Jews shut up heaven, and fulfill all the other details regarding the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-13?

interpreter said in post 639:

Skin cancer is caused by the depletion of the ozone layer which is man-made.

But nothing requires that the plague of the first vial (Revelation 16:2) is skin cancer.

interpreter said in post 639:

Red tides are caused by dams and fertilizer run-off which is man-made.

Nothing requires that the plague of the second vial (Revelation 16:3) is red tides. And nothing has killed every living creature in the sea (Revelation 16:3b), which would include every living creature that causes red tides. So the second vial can't have happened yet.

interpreter said in post 639:

And global warming is caused by an increase in greenhouse gasses, which are man-made.

Couldn't global warming also involve natural sources of greenhouse gases, such as undersea volcanoes, undersea methane hydrates, etc.?

Also, even though global warming exists, it doesn't cause men to be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). So the fourth vial/plague can't have happened yet.

interpreter said in post 639:

And the Euphrates was dried up by one man, Saddam Hussein.

The Euphrates wasn't dried up by Saddam Hussein.

interpreter said in post 639:

There is no reason to mass armies at Mt. Megiddo.

The reason to mass the world's armies at Mt. Megiddo (Revelation 16:14,16) would be to use the large valley below it as a staging area.

interpreter said in post 639:

The third horseman, i.e, Great Britain, probably will reign for a thousand years.

Under your system, can the fifth horseman (i.e. Jesus in Revelation 19) begin his reign before the third and fourth horsemen end their reigns? If he can, and his reign will be over all nations (Psalms 72:11), then won't the reigns of the third and fourth horsemen end at the start of his reign? Or, if his reign can't begin until the third and fourth horsemen end their reigns, are you saying that we have to wait some 800 more years for Jesus' second coming? If so, that might not be the case, for Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hoses 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last seven years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

interpreter said in post 639:

We are close to policing Syria, and we already police North Korea and Iran (with sanctions) and if that is not enough, we will go to war with them.

Then you admit that the U.S. doesn't currently rule over Syria? Also, how have U.S. sanctions against North Korea and Iran ever caused them to submit to U.S. rule? Also, what requires that the U.S. will ever invade Syria, North Korea, or Iran?

interpreter said in post 639:

There is presently no need to police China.

Then you admit that the U.S. doesn't currently rule over China? Also, what requires that the U.S. will ever invade China?

Also, how does the U.S. rule over Russia?

Also, how does the U.S. rule over France?

Also, how does the U.S. rule over Cuba?

Also, how does the U.S. rule over Venezuela?

Also, if, under your system, the U.S. (the fourth horseman) rules the whole world, then what's left for the U.K. (the third horseman) to currently rule?

interpreter said in post 639:

They say that Jesus appeared to Constantine in a vision that night and told him, By this sign conquer.

How does that fulfill Matthew 24:30? And how would any such purported vision be consistent with Jesus' scriptural command to Christians that they never harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39,44, Romans 13:10, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 26:52; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5)?

interpreter said in post 639:

Mat. 24:31 predicts the gathering of all the elected leaders of the Church, to Nicea.

The "elect" in Matthew 24:31 doesn't refer to only human-elected leaders of the church, but to all those who have been elected (chosen) by God to obtain salvation, that is, everyone in the church, of all times (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2).

interpreter said in post 639:

Why would a non-cancerous skin ulcer be worthy of mention?

Skin ulcers can get even more nasty than skin cancers.

interpreter said in post 639:

The Aryan race is the image worshiped by Hitler and his followers, and most Aryans get skin cancer if they live long enough (whereas, blacks account for 2 % of skin cancer cases).

Regarding "the image", again, are you referring to "the image of the beast" in Revelation 13:15? If so, how do Aryans fulfill the details regarding the image of the beast in Revelation 13:14-15, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 16:2, and Revelation 15:2? Also, what scripture refers to the image of the beast being worshipped by the Antichrist, whom you claim was Hitler?

Also, how are you defining "Aryans"? And how did Hitler define them?

Also, can you quote your source for your claim that "most" Aryans get skin cancer if they live long enough? And how would "most" fulfill Revelation 16:2?

Also, how does non-Aryans getting skin cancer work under your system?

Also, how has the "mark of the beast" in Revelation 16:2, and Revelation 13:16-17, ever happened? For it will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell (in every situation, even one without electricity) whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma, G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (that is, the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they are loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hands (probably on the palms) of people "or" on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hands of some people and on the foreheads of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark will not be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they are Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).