Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

[A New Dawn]

Btw, is it okay to have an open dialogue with staff about whether it appropriate to encourage wives to obey the teachings of scripture directed at wives? There are ways to write guidelines to enable posters to bring it up without it turning into a debate.

1. Why single out wives? Shouldn't husbands obey the teachings of scripture directed at them?

2. No. We are not opening it up to discussion between men and women. (And this is not open for discussion.)

 

[LinkH]

1. Why single out wives? Shouldn't husbands obey the teachings of scripture directed at them?

Ironically, in my first draft of the post, I pointed out that the teachings of scripture directed to men are on topic in the forum.

2. No. We are not opening it up to discussion between men and women. (And this is not open for discussion.)

I don't see the Biblical basis for this line of reasoning, but I understand what you are saying.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

The staff here decided that one can go anywhere and find advice that promotes divorce. This site is geared towards a Christian POV, and many Christians look to the Bible for guidance. The Bible clearly speaks against divorce except for in very specific circumstances, hence the stance we took in creating that particular guideline in the SoP.

I can say, at present, we have no inclination to change the rule. We have discussed all the issues involved in making the decision.

The guideline was posted above, I will copy it here.

Statement of Purpose: Married Couples - updated 3/7/2012

Divorce is not to be promoted in this forum except in cases where individuals are in physical danger. Those who are contemplating divorce due to extenuating circumstances may be able to find support in the recovery forums.​

The highlighted portion speaks to your concern. It would be helpful if people don't make more of it than it is.

I'm editing out my post here. I'll put up a separate explanation in a new post.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

The guideline was posted above, I will copy it here.

Statement of Purpose: Married Couples - updated 3/7/2012

Divorce is not to be promoted in this forum except in cases where individuals are in physical danger. Those who are contemplating divorce due to extenuating circumstances may be able to find support in the recovery forums.​

The highlighted portion speaks to your concern. It would be helpful if people don't make more of it than it is.

And what about cases of mental, emotional, spiritual and sexual abuse?

 

[MessianicMommy]

The staff here decided that one can go anywhere and find advice that promotes divorce. This site is geared towards a Christian POV, and many Christians look to the Bible for guidance. The Bible clearly speaks against divorce except for in very specific circumstances, hence the stance we took in creating that particular guideline in the SoP.

I can say, at present, we have no inclination to change the rule. We have discussed all the issues involved in making the decision.

You know, I believe there are several others (than simply myself) who feel rather slapped in the face to say that advocating (especially in the cases of abuse - which are very, very frowned upon in the Bible, all that "Love your spouse/neighbor as you love yourself" and such) for abused individuals, especially in states and countries where merely separating does not grant you full legal protection. ("he's your husband"/"she's your wife!" instead of "Wow, you have a stalker, let's do something about that!" / "You were assaulted? And you're separated! Wow, we have to fix that!")


Divorce is not always an end. OFTEN, if abusers get proper help and prove that they are reformed (it happens!) the couple does remarry.

Saying "The law in your state grants these protections for a separated husband/wife and these for a divorced spouse..." isn't advocating for anything in the Bible to be dismissed, ignored or set aside. Instead, it is actually advocating for the Bible to be obeyed!

Someone who abuses their spouse is in no way loving or obeying Scripture.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am not going to be online further tonight, so I will close this till tomorrow.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am going to open this thread back up, but I'd like to make a statement as I do.

We were not led to believe that there was a specific topic for the thread, and so it was kind of a surprise to learn what the topic was. LOL. I (and all of upper staff) know that many are concerned about the restriction that is in place regarding no promotion of divorce except in cases where someone may be in danger, but that restriction was placed after months of discussion on the topic. It was not something we did easily or on the spur of the moment. By the same token, the decision would need to be made by the site owner, Pauler, to remove the guideline, since it changes the nature of the forum, and it would require some discussion before that decision could be made.

I am opening the thread for people to continue to share their ideas, preferable without some of the accusatory rhetoric that has already taken place. Sharing ideas doesn't need to be so volatile.

Thank you.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I am going to open this thread back up, but I'd like to make a statement as I do.

We were not led to believe that there was a specific topic for the thread, and so it was kind of a surprise to learn what the topic was. LOL. I (and all of upper staff) know that many are concerned about the restriction that is in place regarding no promotion of divorce except in cases where someone may be in danger, but that restriction was placed after months of discussion on the topic. It was not something we did easily or on the spur of the moment. By the same token, the decision would need to be made by the site owner, Pauler, to remove the guideline, since it changes the nature of the forum, and it would require some discussion before that decision could be made.

I am opening the thread for people to continue to share their ideas, preferable without some of the accusatory rhetoric that has already taken place. Sharing ideas doesn't need to be so volatile.

Thank you.

First, a big apology to staff for my last post...which I edited out. I made a mistake. I got in my head that A New Dawn was aware of the topic when she really wasn't. I approached this carefully, but a bit too carefully as it turns out. I didn't keep things straight in my head and I made an assumption. And I had a pretty nasty emotional reaction based on that assumption. That was wrong and I apologize personally to A New Dawn. She didn't deserve that.
I had a really crummy day (part of it was I was distraught after reading about the kidnappings...then work on top of that) and by the time I read A New Dawn's post I was emotionally drained and my judgement was compromised. I will do my best not to repeat anything like that.

Now to reply to this specific post by A New Dawn. Yes, I did put in the OP that I had an intended subject. I didn't want to break any rules by bringing it up in the OP, so I asked permission to have an open discussion thread first. I see now how that caused confusion.

As for the decision, I understand it was made by staff after months of discussion. But were members brought in at all on the discussion? I was mostly away from CF then, but I'm more active now and would like to participate if possible. So what I'm saying is that we have a diverse, mature membership for the most part. Deciding for us that we can't give the advice we feel would be helpful to a family in trouble is very limiting. Other members have posted about this in the thread already much better than I can.
I ask all levels of staff to seriously consider what we all have contributed here. And to go back and address some points others have brought up that were not replied to. And maybe other staffers could post as well. I'm sure there are more than just two that have input.


The end goal here is to help families. We can't do that with our hands tied. And those families won't get the same help in another, much slower, forum. We're not perfect. But we care and we want to help.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

*Blind post*
The assumption that is made by Christians, at times, is that those who counsel separation or divorce are being ungodly in their advice. At the same time, those who advocate staying in a harmful situation have had the same assumption made about them. Both sides claim 'biblical authority' to give the advice that they do, and claim to know the mind of Christ on the matter. Personally, I do my best (whether in person or on this site) to state as objectively as I can the truth as I see it, give advice based on a person's situation, and state all available options open to that person. If it appears that the advice I would give may violate the 'rule' on advocating divorce, I would typically suggest contacting one of the site Chaplains, however I have no way of knowing whether or not that happens, or whether a person actually seeks help in one of the 'recovery' areas. Looking at the 'recovery' area of the site itself, what I see are some 'hotlines' and other resources, but no discussion threads for divorce prevention or divorce recovery specifically.

So I'm left with a bit of a question - where does one go to get solid, biblical advice and support on divorce if it cannot be discussed/promoted on this site? One can certainly be supported in all manner of ways on why they should not seek a divorce, and I have seen that argument made for all manner of reasons, even advocated for persons who are in abusive situations. Some posters even go so far as to suggest that it is God strengthening them in adversity.

So, all that to say that I am not an advocate for divorce for any and every reason. But sometimes it needs to be discussed as a final measure when all other steps at reconciliation have failed. And I believe that some resources need to be made available, above and beyond what is available on the site right now, for those who are considering divorce to be able to discuss those options without being maligned by other believers who hold to a different world-view than the OP who is coming to us for help.

 

[Chaplain David]

*Blind post*...So I'm left with a bit of a question - where does one go to get solid, biblical advice and support on divorce if it cannot be discussed/promoted on this site?...

Hello,

Ideally the member wanting to discuss separation or divorce would go to their pastor. That's where I would go. One can also seek personal counseling for oneself or joint counseling with one's pastor or a good marriage counselor such as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT).

On the forum, members are welcome to come to us (the chaplains), either through pm's or by posting in the Ask a Chaplain forum (AAC).

Faithfully,

 

[Luther073082]

The staff here decided that one can go anywhere and find advice that promotes divorce. This site is geared towards a Christian POV, and many Christians look to the Bible for guidance. The Bible clearly speaks against divorce except for in very specific circumstances, hence the stance we took in creating that particular guideline in the SoP.

I can say, at present, we have no inclination to change the rule. We have discussed all the issues involved in making the decision.

Except physical danger is not actually in the bible as a specific circumstance for divorce and you have failed to include the circumstances which the bible actually does allow divorce in which are adultery and abandonment.

In the previous case where many posts where deleted because they "advised divorce" which they did so partially or entirely on the basis that the OP's spouse had admitted to adultery. Something which is absolutely a biblical circumstance for divorce.

So in a sense our posts where deleted and one person I know received a warning because we dispensed Biblical advice based on the fact that the OP's spouse admitted adultery and was disinterested in healing the marriage.

So if the idea of this is to have a place where one can receive biblical advice, it would seem not only logical but also necessary to allow for advice of divorce in instances of adultery and abandonment as well. And the rule seems to be entirely inconsistent with the purpose of this being a place where one may receive biblical advice.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Hello,

Ideally the member wanting to discuss separation or divorce would go to their pastor. That's where I would go. One can also seek personal counseling for oneself or joint counseling with one's pastor or a good marriage counselor such as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT).

On the forum, members are welcome to come to us (the chaplains), either through pm's or by posting in the Ask a Chaplain forum (AAC).

Faithfully,

Ideally, yes. In many of the discussions that happen here, however, counselling is roundly criticised by a fairly vocal majority when it is suggested. I am grateful, though, that some of the Chaplains such as yourself have been a bit more of a presence on the marriage forum of late. That helps. Just as a suggestion, I believe it may be a benefit to offer a dedicated 'Divorce Recovery' area separate and distinct from the 'Divorce/Remarriage' sub-forum that exists here already.

I also recognize that most of us here are not professional counselors, although some may be. And even if some of us are, we cannot represent ourselves as such or offer professional advice. Most posters, at the very least, do refer OP's to their respective Pastors for advice. My only concern (and the concern of others here) is the narrow constraint of the rules as they exist now which allows for all the advice in the world to stay married, but none to consider other options if all avenues to reconcile have failed and the OP is in a dangerous (physical/mental/emotional) situation.

 

[Chaplain David]

Ideally, yes. In many of the discussions that happen here, however, counselling is roundly criticised by a fairly vocal majority when it is suggested. I am grateful, though, that some of the Chaplains such as yourself have been a bit more of a presence on the marriage forum of late. That helps. Just as a suggestion, I believe it may be a benefit to offer a dedicated 'Divorce Recovery' area separate and distinct from the 'Divorce/Remarriage' sub-forum that exists here already.

I also recognize that most of us here are not professional counselors, although some may be. And even if some of us are, we cannot represent ourselves as such or offer professional advice. Most posters, at the very least, do refer OP's to their respective Pastors for advice. My only concern (and the concern of others here) is the narrow constraint of the rules as they exist now which allows for all the advice in the world to stay married, but none to consider other options if all avenues to reconcile have failed and the OP is in a dangerous (physical/mental/emotional) situation.

I was just looking at the CF subforums and saw this one with the following explanation:

Divorced or Separated A new forum for the support of divorced or separated Christians.

Do you think that this one would suffice for "Divorce Recovery" as you mentioned?

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

God appears to be OK with divorce in the case of adultery, according to the Bible. If it is not OK to post about something God is OK with in this particular forum, there are other ways to communicate (reps, private messages, wall postings, etc). I was previously unaware that advocating divorce in the case of adultery was against the rules. Now that I am aware of it, that's fine - if I feel strongly that I should say something about it, I can say it somewhere else.

That being said - for the record, if someone is in an abusive relationship - they ARE in physical danger. Verbal abuse escalates into physical abuse.

I don't agree with removing posts that are discussing divorce for both Biblical reasons and reasons that, IMO, actually do go along with rules (being in danger).

 

[A New Dawn]

Except physical danger is not actually in the bible as a specific circumstance for divorce and you have failed to include the circumstances which the bible actually does allow divorce in which are adultery and abandonment.

In the previous case where many posts where deleted because they "advised divorce" which they did so partially or entirely on the basis that the OP's spouse had admitted to adultery. Something which is absolutely a biblical circumstance for divorce.

So in a sense our posts where deleted and one person I know received a warning because we dispensed Biblical advice based on the fact that the OP's spouse admitted adultery and was disinterested in healing the marriage.

So if the idea of this is to have a place where one can receive biblical advice, it would seem not only logical but also necessary to allow for advice of divorce in instances of adultery and abandonment as well. And the rule seems to be entirely inconsistent with the purpose of this being a place where one may receive biblical advice.

This is an appropriate concern regarding the current rule. I have brought it up with the other administrators.

 

[ValleyGal]

Except physical danger is not actually in the bible as a specific circumstance for divorce and you have failed to include the circumstances which the bible actually does allow divorce in which are adultery and abandonment.

....

So if the idea of this is to have a place where one can receive biblical advice, it would seem not only logical but also necessary to allow for advice of divorce in instances of adultery and abandonment as well. And the rule seems to be entirely inconsistent with the purpose of this being a place where one may receive biblical advice.

I hope I am not out of place in adding my thoughts to this. I would like to address the law. I realize every country and state is different, so it would be up to a poster to be aware of the laws in their own area. I am coming from the perspective of a former child protection worker. If a person is being abused in ANY way, it is up to the abused person to protect their children from vicarious trauma. Vicarious trauma is a child protection issue. If the abused spouse does not protect their children, the children are likely going to be removed by a social worker.

This site allows for this to happen in the case of physical abuse only if someone is in danger. Danger is not defined. But I cannot, in good conscience suggest that someone stay with a mentally abusive spouse just because they are not in "danger." Danger can be mental, emotional, physical, sexual. The other thing too, is that "threats" could be seen as danger. If someone is stalked - it might or might not be danger. Someone might regularly threaten to beat someone silly or even kill someone, but how real is the threat?

There are just so many variables.

I am also curious about this. We are not to suggest divorce. So does that mean we are to counsel to stay? If one spouse is sinning against the other and there is no possible resolution in sight, are we to suggest the non-sinning spouse to continue living with the one who will not give up their sin against him or her? I'm not comfortable with that either. Sometimes leaving is the only way to teach boundaries.

I'd like to add that even if this policy does not change, I appreciate this dialogue as it helps us to see it from all angles. And honestly, I would rather have it as an option in the forums rather than people sending PMs to each other advising divorce on the sly. At least in the open, we can participate in critical thinking about it which could help the OP make a more informed decision. I think there are ways to develop policies that could allow for this, although I admit the forum would be more open to disrespectful conflict.

It's a hard conversation....

 

[Chaplain David]

God appears to be OK with divorce in the case of adultery, according to the Bible. If it is not OK to post about something God is OK with in this particular forum, there are other ways to communicate (reps, private messages, wall postings, etc). I was previously unaware that advocating divorce in the case of adultery was against the rules. Now that I am aware of it, that's fine - if I feel strongly that I should say something about it, I can say it somewhere else.

That being said - for the record, if someone is in an abusive relationship - they ARE in physical danger. Verbal abuse escalates into physical abuse.

I don't agree with removing posts that are discussing divorce for both Biblical reasons and reasons that, IMO, actually do go along with rules (being in danger).

Hello,

I agree with some of your thoughts. It is absolutely better sometimes to go one-on-one with support. Publically advocating divorce (and I'm not saying you've done this) can be a reckless piece of advice for someone who is vulnerable, needs help, and probably needs professional counseling.

For the vast majority of us, the people that know us the best or have the ability to know us the best are not on the forum. They are in our non cyber world, where we live, in our church or at work.

Whether or not we can advocate divorce because of Biblical grounds of adultery or abandonment on the forum is really superceded by God really not liking divorce. He hates it. He wants us to work out our problems if possible. Many times marriages are left because what could have been saved was actually left with little work having gone into it.

As our Admin A New Dawn said, all suggestions will be considered. It is part of what staff does --- to take advice and suggestions, talk about them, and give them consideration. However, that doesn't mean advice will lead to changing the present rules. But that doesn't mean we should quit talking or quit suggesting or quit recommending. It's good to air the things that are bothering us on more than one level.

God bless you.

 

[Chaplain David]

This is an appropriate concern regarding the current rule. I have brought it up with the other administrators.

Outstanding.

 

[Chaplain David]

I hope I am not out of place in adding my thoughts to this. I would like to address the law. I realize every country and state is different, so it would be up to a poster to be aware of the laws in their own area. I am coming from the perspective of a former child protection worker. If a person is being abused in ANY way, it is up to the abused person to protect their children from vicarious trauma. Vicarious trauma is a child protection issue. If the abused spouse does not protect their children, the children are likely going to be removed by a social worker.

This site allows for this to happen in the case of physical abuse only if someone is in danger. Danger is not defined. But I cannot, in good conscience suggest that someone stay with a mentally abusive spouse just because they are not in "danger." Danger can be mental, emotional, physical, sexual. The other thing too, is that "threats" could be seen as danger. If someone is stalked - it might or might not be danger. Someone might regularly threaten to beat someone silly or even kill someone, but how real is the threat?

There are just so many variables.

I am also curious about this. We are not to suggest divorce. So does that mean we are to counsel to stay? If one spouse is sinning against the other and there is no possible resolution in sight, are we to suggest the non-sinning spouse to continue living with the one who will not give up their sin against him or her? I'm not comfortable with that either. Sometimes leaving is the only way to teach boundaries.

I'd like to add that even if this policy does not change, I appreciate this dialogue as it helps us to see it from all angles. And honestly, I would rather have it as an option in the forums rather than people sending PMs to each other advising divorce on the sly. At least in the open, we can participate in critical thinking about it which could help the OP make a more informed decision. I think there are ways to develop policies that could allow for this, although I admit the forum would be more open to disrespectful conflict.

It's a hard conversation....

Hi,

Good post with good points!

I would not counsel to stay. In this type of situation I always tell someone to go somewhere safe and seek counseling ASAP.

 

[mkgal1]

Its also not something people like to talk about, and normally are whisked away elsewhere. It does make them (victims/individuals) feel dirty, or give them the impression that they should ashamed of something.

I guess I don't grasp why some groups feel using the tools of separation/divorce for a matter of safety is seen as 'promotion' of those things. It would seem the promotion would be for the safety and well-being of the individual instead.

It doesn't have to be polarized in this sense, but sadly the tradition is to do just that.

IMO.....this is really something important that ought to be considered. It takes a *lot* of courage for a person to finally reach out for help, but like MM said, if they are pushed away to another area----they probably aren't going to reach out again for quite some time (and it may be too late by then).