America is Babylon

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 598:

Delete "third Jewish temple" at some FUTURE TIME . . .

Sorry, can't do that, because Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple will coexist with the church like the second temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The third temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the second coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the third temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a fourth temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) as the second temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 599:

According to your own source, only 2 percent of skin cancers afflict blacks.

That source was referring to only the cases included in one study: "The study, published in the journal Archives of Dermatology, analyzed 1,690 melanoma cases in Miami-Dade County from 1997 through 2002 . . . Of the cases studied, 70 percent involved white non-Hispanics, 29 percent were Hispanics and 2 percent were black non-Hispanics" ( Skin cancer more deadly in Hispanics, blacks - Health - Cancer | NBC News )

Also, how does your reply answer the question that was asked: Based on what source do you claim that most Aryans get skin cancer? Also, how does the fact that skin cancer isn't limited to Aryans, and is even more deadly in non-Aryans, consistent with your view? Also, the first vial (Revelation 16:2) refers to awful sores which don't have to be cancerous, and which will appear on only those people, and on all those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). And these people will include all races, for the Antichrist will be worshipped by all races of the earth (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:3b-4). Neither the Antichrist, nor his mark, nor his image has come yet (Revelation 13:4-18). So the first vial (Revelation 16:2) can't have happened yet.

interpreter said in post 599:

I gave you an example of how the trumpet prophesies foretell of WW II events . . .

The 200 million, weird horse-like beings of the sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) will kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:18), something which has never happened.

interpreter said in post 599:

The beaches of Normandy are pointed to by one of the vectors of the starguide of chapter one.

What you mean by "the starguide" and "the vectors"?

interpreter said in post 599:

Those days were cut short for the sake of the elect.

Mark 13:20 doesn't mean that some of the prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 will never come to pass. For they "must" come to pass (Revelation 1:1), they must "all" be fulfilled (Matthew 24:34-35).

Instead, Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, and Mark 13. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And his return will be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the seventh vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the seventh vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the seventh vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

interpreter said in post 599:

No one can read the news and then deny that the seven last plagues are now being poured out.

The events of Revelation 16 aren't in the news.

interpreter said in post 599:

Everything before the 7 last plagues has already been fulfilled.

Revelation chapters 6 to 14 haven't yet begun.

interpreter said in post 599:

I gave you the link.

No link has supported the claim that the lower Euphrates was dry for nine years.

The following link you gave referred to only some marshes being dried up:

"Two things may have driven Saddam's drain-the-marshes project. First, oil is buried beneath the wetlands, and drying them out improves access for development. Second, there were military issues — even before Saddam's repression of the uprisings that followed the 1991 Gulf War. During Iraq's 1980-88 war with neighboring Iran, the marshes were often targeted because they were an infiltration route and guerrilla battleground".

Group Hopes to Restore Iraq Marsh Culture - ABC News

interpreter said in post 599:

The hundred pound hailstones dropped on the 7th head of the beast has happened.

Revelation 16:21 refers to hundred-pound, literal hailstones which will plague mankind in general, and only after the not-yet-fulfilled first six vials have all been fulfilled in our future.

interpreter said in post 599:

And in the near future Jerusalem will be split 3 ways.

Regarding "in the near future", how many years in the future do you consider to be "near"?

Regarding "Jerusalem will be split 3 ways", that's right. For at the end of the future tribulation, as a result of a literal earthquake which will occur at that time, Jerusalem will be split into three parts topographically (Revelation 16:18b-19a), just as, subsequently, at Jesus' second coming, he will split the Mount of Olives into two parts topographically (Zechariah 14:4), and will make other topographical changes to Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:10).

interpreter said in post 599:

The historical facts support the prophecy that the eighth head of the beast is one man, i.e., Hitler.

No historical facts support what you claimed before, that the Third Reich was one man. Similarly, no historical facts support the idea that Hitler was the Antichrist. For Hitler didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, and Revelation 19:19-21. Also, Hitler didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, haven't yet been fulfilled.

interpreter said in post 599:

I gave you the verses.

Do you mean Revelation 13:3,18? If so, note that neither verse refers to more than one head #6.

interpreter said in post 599:

Mat.24:29-31 has already been fulfillied.

It hasn't, for it's referring to Jesus' second coming.

interpreter said in post 599:

Every eye saw the sign of the Son of Man in the clouds.

Every eye has to see Jesus himself at his second coming (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see him with their own eyes. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' second coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it's not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's bodily resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the second coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

interpreter said in post 599:

What do you think "elect" means if not the elected leaders of the Church?

The "elect" in Matthew 24:31 doesn't refer to only human-elected leaders of the church, but to all those who have been elected (chosen) by God to obtain salvation, that is, everyone in the church (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2).

The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 599:

Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled 7 times, by the 7 ecumenical councils of the Church.

Matthew 24:31, like 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

interpreter said in post 599:

"Left" means left where they are to reign with Jesus in the coming millennium.

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' second coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

interpreter said in post 599:

The two witnesses that Hitler tried to take out were Jews and Serbs.

Jews and Serbs have never fulfilled the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12), just as Hitler didn't fulfill the details regarding the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18).

interpreter said in post 599:

The US, over the course of history has fulfilled everything concerning the 4th horseman.

But you said the 4th horseman was George Washington. Neither he nor the U.S. has fulfilled the details in Revelation 6:8.

*******

interpreter said in post 600:

A star guided the wise men to Bethlehem . . .

Matthew 2:9 isn't referring to a literal star, or to any planet or planets, but to a bright object in the sky that sometimes moved and sometimes stood still, like what we today would call a UFO. But the star in Matthew 2:9 could have been an angel, even the same one who had appeared on the ground two years earlier (Luke 2:9-11). But now he was high up in the air, and moved from above Jerusalem, where the Magi had met with Herod (Matthew 2:1-7), and led them, "went before them" (Matthew 2:9), to go not south to Bethlehem, where Jesus had not been for two years, but north to Nazareth. Literal stars and planets don't move like that from south to north, or from north to south, for that matter, but move only from east to west as the earth rotates under them. Also, literal stars and planets don't move and then stop when they arrive over a particular house (Matthew 2:9-11).

Also, regarding the house in Matthew 2:9-11, note that it's not a barn like two years earlier (Luke 2:7). After the Magi left Nazareth, the two-year-old Jesus (Matthew 2:16) was taken for protection into Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14), whereas shortly after Jesus had been born in Bethlehem two years earlier, he had been taken to Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-38) and then to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).

Also, the star-like object which the Magi saw would have appeared so small that only people who knew all the visible stars extremely well, like the Magi, would have even noticed it in the sky as something new. For if it had been some big, bright object that anyone would have noticed as something new, then Herod wouldn't have asked the Magi when it had first appeared (Matthew 2:7). For he and everyone else would have been talking about it and wondering what it portended for the last two years (Matthew 2:16). Also, just as the Magi noticed something in the sky that nobody else noticed, and followed it to an endpoint, so eschatologists could notice something in the Word that nobody else has noticed and follow it to an endpoint (e.g. Daniel 12:11-12).

interpreter said in post 600:

The seven stars are the seven coordinates of the 7 Asian churches, expressed as longitude and latitude.

Rather, Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 were: the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) (what is today Western Turkey).

These seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

interpreter said in post 600:

The 21 great circles formed by the 21 vectors can be seen with any navigation software.

What do you mean by "the 21 vectors"?

interpreter said in post 600:

What famines?

Revelation 6:6 refers to future famines, when food will be so expensive that someone will have to spend an entire day's wages just to buy a quart of wheat. For when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". A denarion was a full day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart.

interpreter said in post 600:

The British Empire conquered with economics.

The British Empire conquered with armies and navies.

interpreter said in post 600:

Great Britain formed companies.

What verse does that fulfill?

interpreter said in post 600:

You are confusing the false prophets of WW II (the RC and Lutheran Churches) with the false prophet(s) of the Battle of Ar Mageddon.

The RC and Lutheran churches have never fulfilled the details regarding the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16). Also, the Bible makes no reference to a "Battle of" Armageddon. But at the never-fulfilled sixth vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (that is, the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there. Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

interpreter said in post 600:

Read the newspaper.

Nothing in Revelation 16:12-16 is in the news.

interpreter said in post 600:

The first and second horsemen ruled for a thousand years, as does the 5th horseman.

Based on what verses? (Also, did you mean the 4th horseman instead of "the 5th"?)

 

[interpreter]

Matthew 24:31, like 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).



Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' second coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Jesus never mentions a rapture. Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled 7 times by the 7 Ecumenical Councils.

Jews and Serbs have never fulfilled the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12), just as Hitler didn't fulfill the details regarding the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18).

Hitler slayed 6 million Jews in his gas chambers, and 1 million Serbs.

But you said the 4th horseman was George Washington. Neither he nor the U.S. has fulfilled the details in Revelation 6:8.

The 5 horsemen found 5 Christian nations.

*******

Matthew 2:9 isn't referring to a literal star, or to any planet or planets, but to a bright object in the sky that sometimes moved and sometimes stood still, like what we today would call a UFO. But the star in Matthew 2:9 could have been an angel, even the same one who had appeared on the ground two years earlier (Luke 2:9-11). But now he was high up in the air, and moved from above Jerusalem, where the Magi had met with Herod (Matthew 2:1-7), and led them, "went before them" (Matthew 2:9), to go not south to Bethlehem, where Jesus had not been for two years, but north to Nazareth. Literal stars and planets don't move like that from south to north, or from north to south, for that matter, but move only from east to west as the earth rotates under them. Also, literal stars and planets don't move and then stop when they arrive over a particular house (Matthew 2:9-11).

Also, regarding the house in Matthew 2:9-11, note that it's not a barn like two years earlier (Luke 2:7). After the Magi left Nazareth, the two-year-old Jesus (Matthew 2:16) was taken for protection into Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14), whereas shortly after Jesus had been born in Bethlehem two years earlier, he had been taken to Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-38) and then to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).

Also, the star-like object which the Magi saw would have appeared so small that only people who knew all the visible stars extremely well, like the Magi, would have even noticed it in the sky as something new. For if it had been some big, bright object that anyone would have noticed as something new, then Herod wouldn't have asked the Magi when it had first appeared (Matthew 2:7). For he and everyone else would have been talking about it and wondering what it portended for the last two years (Matthew 2:16). Also, just as the Magi noticed something in the sky that nobody else noticed, and followed it to an endpoint, so eschatologists could notice something in the Word that nobody else has noticed and follow it to an endpoint (e.g. Daniel 12:11-12).

The Star in the East is of course Venus, which appeared over Bethlehem near high noon on March 27th, 4 BC (during an eclipse).

Rather, Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 were: the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) (what is today Western Turkey).

These seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).



What do you mean by "the 21 vectors"?

The 7 stars form 21 alignments or vectors. For example, a line drawn from Ephesus to Thyatira, and then extended, bisects Constantinople, one of the 7 golden lampstands, and the seat of the first horseman.

Revelation 6:6 refers to future famines, when food will be so expensive that someone will have to spend an entire day's wages just to buy a quart of wheat. For when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". A denarion was a full day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart.



The British Empire conquered with armies and navies.

First they formed companies.

What verse does that fulfill?

Rev. 6:5-6

The RC and Lutheran churches have never fulfilled the details regarding the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16). Also, the Bible makes no reference to a "Battle of" Armageddon. But at the never-fulfilled sixth vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (that is, the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there. Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

Just as there were false prophets in the great tribulation of WW II, there will be false prophets in the Battle of Ar Mageddon.

Nothing in Revelation 16:12-16 is in the news.

The drying up of the Euphrates was news at the time.

Based on what verses? (Also, did you mean the 4th horseman instead of "the 5th"?)

No, I mean the 5th horseman, usually thought to be Jesus, who appears in chapter 19, and reigns for a thousand years. The first horseman, the Byzantine Empire, also reigned for a thousand years. As did the 2nd horseman, the Holy Roman Empire, founded by Charles the Great who rode a red horse and conquered with a great sword.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 604:

Jesus never mentions a rapture.

Jesus does mention the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3b.

interpreter said in post 604:

Mat. 24:31 was fulfilled 7 times by the 7 Ecumenical Councils.

Matthew 24:31 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30), which will be immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

interpreter said in post 604:

Hitler slayed 6 million Jews in his gas chambers, and 1 million Serbs.

That's horrible.

But it doesn't mean that Jews and Serbs have ever fulfilled the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12), or that Hitler ever fulfilled the details regarding the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18).

interpreter said in post 604:

The 5 horsemen found 5 Christian nations.

Who are the five horsemen, what are their five nations, and how have those nations, and only those nations, ever fulfilled all the details of Revelation 6:2-8 and Revelation 19:11 to 20:6?

interpreter said in post 604:

The Star in the East is of course Venus, which appeared over Bethlehem near high noon on March 27th, 4 BC (during an eclipse).

It can't be Venus, for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

interpreter said in post 604:

The 7 stars form 21 alignments or vectors.

If by the seven stars you mean the seven ancient cities in Revelation 1:11, what verse requires that there's any significance to those alignments?

Also, Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 represented: Not the location of the seven cities, but only the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in those seven cities, which were in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey.

These seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on the island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9), which is just off the coast of western Turkey. For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

interpreter said in post 604:

For example, a line drawn from Ephesus to Thyatira, and then extended, bisects Constantinople, one of the 7 golden lampstands, and the seat of the first horseman.

What verse requires that there's any significance to a line through ancient Ephesus and Thyatira crossing ancient Byzantium, which wasn't called Constantinople until centuries after Revelation was written, and which is called Istanbul today? Also, ancient Constantinople wasn't one of the seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) in Revelation 1:12. For Revelation 1:20,11 explains that those seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) represented the seven ancient church congregations in the seven ancient cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.

Also, what verse refers to a city being "the seat" of the first horseman of Revelation 6:2?

Also, the first horseman, seated on the white horse of Revelation 6:2, could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all the nations of the earth and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the person seated on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (compare John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all the nations of the earth during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

interpreter said in post 604:

First they formed companies.

What verse is fulfilled by Britain forming companies?

interpreter said in post 604:

Rev. 6:5-6

How does Britain forming companies fulfill the famines of Revelation 6:5-6?

interpreter said in post 604:

Just as there were false prophets in the great tribulation of WW II, there will be false prophets in the Battle of Ar Mageddon.

The details regarding the Antichrist's False Prophet have never been fulfilled (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 16:13, Revelation 19:20). Also, there's no such thing in scripture as "the Battle of" Armageddon.

interpreter said in post 604:

The drying up of the Euphrates was news at the time.

Nothing in past news has ever referred to the Euphrates drying up.

interpreter said in post 604:

I mean the 5th horseman, usually thought to be Jesus, who appears in chapter 19, and reigns for a thousand years.

Jesus won't reign on the earth for a thousand years until after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14).

interpreter said in post 604:

The first horseman, the Byzantine Empire, also reigned for a thousand years.

Can you quote your source, indicating the start and end dates, and any relevant verse?

interpreter said in post 604:

As did the 2nd horseman, the Holy Roman Empire, founded by Charles the Great who rode a red horse and conquered with a great sword.

Can you quote your source, indicating the start and end dates, and any relevant verse?

The last three of the four horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all three of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For even though there has been some ostensible change in Egypt, the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army remains in ultimate control, so that the Baathists could see the Egyptian regime as still being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that a fourth of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

 

[shturt678]

The ol' Babylon the Great, mystery, is just the antichristian empire, which includes America of course = the Great harlot, which symbolizes the antichristian seduction, which again, includes America.

The former is core based upon "the power of the Word of God" rides forth, Rev.6:2, directed against its enemies as in Rom.1:18, rather than Rom.1:16, i.e., horsemen of non-miraculous preliminary judgments (war, injustice, and death), i.e., been occurring and even more so today.

The Trumpets, Rev. chapters 8 & 9, are simply just miraculous preliminary judgments, of a supernatural agency, where God will make sure one believes any religious lie one wants to believe, e.g., Rev.13:14b today! I think we all need to get into the shoes of a little water baptized child and wade across the stream where elephants are drowning.

 

[interpreter]

Jesus does mention the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3b.



Matthew 24:31 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30), which will be immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

You are mixing up 2 comings.

That's horrible.

But it doesn't mean that Jews and Serbs have ever fulfilled the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12), or that Hitler ever fulfilled the details regarding the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (e.g. Revelation 13:4-18).

God's two witnesses are Jews and Orthodox Christians.

Who are the five horsemen, what are their five nations, and how have those nations, and only those nations, ever fulfilled all the details of Revelation 6:2-8 and Revelation 19:11 to 20:6?

Four horsemen have already come, and I have already revealed them to you. The fifth horseman is future.

It can't be Venus, for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

Only Venus is known as the star in the east.

If by the seven stars you mean the seven ancient cities in Revelation 1:11, what verse requires that there's any significance to those alignments?

Also, Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 represented: Not the location of the seven cities, but only the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in those seven cities, which were in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey.

These seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on the island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9), which is just off the coast of western Turkey. For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

Aggelos means messengers, not human messengers. The only star-like messengers of the 7 Asian Churches is their star-like coordinates.

What verse requires that there's any significance to a line through ancient Ephesus and Thyatira crossing ancient Byzantium, which wasn't called Constantinople until centuries after Revelation was written, and which is called Istanbul today? Also, ancient Constantinople wasn't one of the seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) in Revelation 1:12. For Revelation 1:20,11 explains that those seven golden candlesticks (or lampstands) represented the seven ancient church congregations in the seven ancient cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.

The 7 golden lampstands are not the 7 Asian churches. The original Greek says the 7 golden lampstands are 7 Churches (without the "the", meaning they are Churches of the future that Jesus is standing in the middle of on the Isle of Patmos. Seven of the vectors point to the 7 Churches of the future established by the first horseman. It turns out that the Isle of Patmos is in the middle of them.

Also, what verse refers to a city being "the seat" of the first horseman of Revelation 6:2?

The starguide points to all of the good things foretold.

Also, the first horseman, seated on the white horse of Revelation 6:2, could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all the nations of the earth and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the person seated on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (compare John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all the nations of the earth during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

The gospel is not a man.

What verse is fulfilled by Britain forming companies?

The 3rd horseman conquers with a pair of scales.

How does Britain forming companies fulfill the famines of Revelation 6:5-6?

No famine is foretold.

The details regarding the Antichrist's False Prophet have never been fulfilled (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 16:13, Revelation 19:20). Also, there's no such thing in scripture as "the Battle of" Armageddon.

The great tribulation is clearly behind us because we now experiencing the 7 last plagues. The Battle of Ar Mageddon is now unfolding.

Nothing in past news has ever referred to the Euphrates drying up.

Wrong. It has dried up a couple times.

Jesus won't reign on the earth for a thousand years until after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14).

Actually you are referring to the third coming.

Can you quote your source, indicating the start and end dates, and any relevant verse?

The first horseman reigned from 312 AD until 1453.

Can you quote your source, indicating the start and end dates, and any relevant verse?

The second horseman reigned from 800 AD to 1806.

The last three of the four horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all three of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For even though there has been some ostensible change in Egypt, the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army remains in ultimate control, so that the Baathists could see the Egyptian regime as still being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that a fourth of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

You futurists are a hoot.

 

[shturt678]

Jesus does mention the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3b.

Matthew 24:31 won't be fulfilled until Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:30), which will be immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Again, just remove "future tribulation" from the equation and perfect! Then just merge in also only "one tribulation," and happens to be in full bloom, "error's working" at IIThess.2:11, 12, now, yesterday, and let alone today! I wish it was in some "future tribulation."

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 607:

You are mixing up 2 comings.

How so?

God's two witnesses are Jews and Orthodox Christians.

How do they fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)?

Four horsemen have already come, and I have already revealed them to you.

Under your view, how did the four horsemen, and how did their nations, and only their nations, ever fulfill all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

Only Venus is known as the star in the east.

Matthew 2:2,9 isn't referring to a common object in the sky as "the star in the east", but is referring to an unusual and tiny point of light in the sky, unnoticed by people (Matthew 2:7), that "the wise men from the east" (Matthew 2:1) had noticed while they were still in the east (Matthew 2:2,9).

Matthew 2:2,9 also can't be referring to Venus for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

Aggelos means messengers, not human messengers.

It can be used to refer to human messengers (Luke 7:24).

The only star-like messengers of the 7 Asian Churches is their star-like coordinates.

Nothing requires that the messengers themselves had to be star-like.

The 7 golden lampstands are not the 7 Asian churches.

They are (Revelation 1:20,11).

The original Greek says the 7 golden lampstands are 7 Churches (without the "the", meaning they are Churches of the future that Jesus is standing in the middle of on the Isle of Patmos.

The very last part of Revelation 1:20 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "seven churches" in order for it to be referring to the same seven churches as just mentioned earlier in Revelation 1:20, and in Revelation 1:11, just as, for example, Revelation 1:13 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "Son of man" in order for it to be referring to the Son of man (John 13:31).

Seven of the vectors point to the 7 Churches of the future established by the first horseman. It turns out that the Isle of Patmos is in the middle of them.

What seven vectors are you referring to? Also, can you quote your source for what seven churches you're referring to?

The gospel is not a man.

Who has said that it is?

The 3rd horseman conquers with a pair of scales.

The scales in Revelation 6:5 represent the selling of the expensive food in the famines of Revelation 6:6.

No famine is foretold.

Revelation 6:6 refers to future famines, when food will be so expensive that someone will have to spend an entire day's wages just to buy a quart of wheat. For when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". A denarion was a full day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart.

The great tribulation is clearly behind us because we now experiencing the 7 last plagues.

We aren't yet experiencing them.

The Battle of Ar Mageddon is now unfolding.

There's no "Battle of" Armageddon.

It has dried up a couple times.

The Euphrates hasn't dried up.

Actually you are referring to the third coming.

There's no third coming.

The first horseman reigned from 312 AD until 1453.

What happened on those dates?

The second horseman reigned from 800 AD to 1806.

What happened on those dates?

 

[josephearl]

Bible2 you have a great deal of patience. Thanks for doing your best to keep people from following a erroneous methodology.

 

[shturt678]

Bible2 you have a great deal of patience. Thanks for doing your best to keep people from following a erroneous methodology.

Are you really wanting to affirm, for example, that Rev.11:1-2, etc. require that there be a literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem during some future tribulation???

Please relook at Rev.11:1, simply this "reed" just symbolizes the precious Word or gospel in its function of determining who is in the church and who is outside of its bounds. Secondly "temple" is suppose to be "Sanctuary," remove this "temple" out of the equation, just for starters.

All of us can see the love that Bible2 has for the Word, and he is the acme of examples interpreting from the English backwards to the ancient languages. Bible2, along with others, is doing this unknowingly of course, and we need to also check our interpreting method?

 

[interpreter]

How so?

The second coming, part 1, was in 312AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds. The second coming, part II (Rev. chapters 19 & 20) will occur soon.

How do they fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)?

They survived a lot of trampling.

Under your view, how did the four horsemen, and how did their nations, and only their nations, ever fulfill all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

I already told you all that.

Matthew 2:2,9 isn't referring to a common object in the sky as "the star in the east", but is referring to an unusual and tiny point of light in the sky, unnoticed by people (Matthew 2:7), that "the wise men from the east" (Matthew 2:1) had noticed while they were still in the east (Matthew 2:2,9).

Matthew 2:2,9 also can't be referring to Venus for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

And six months earlier, on Oct.1, 5BC, Venus appeared over the hill country of Judea when John the Baptist was born, but in Luke's Gospel, Venus is called the Dayspring star.

It can be used to refer to human messengers (Luke 7:24).

7 human messengers would not be called stars.

Nothing requires that the messengers themselves had to be star-like.

They are called stars.

They are (Revelation 1:20,11).

Wrong. The 7 Asian churches cannot be 7 stars and 7 golden lampstands at the same time. John is told to write the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. The seven golden lampstands are the things "which will take place after this."

The very last part of Revelation 1:20 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "seven churches" in order for it to be referring to the same seven churches as just mentioned earlier in Revelation 1:20, and in Revelation 1:11, just as, for example, Revelation 1:13 doesn't have to have a "the" in the original Greek before "Son of man" in order for it to be referring to the Son of man (John 13:31).

John says the seven stars are the seven churches, and the seven golden lampstands are seven Chrurches.

What seven vectors are you referring to? Also, can you quote your source for what seven churches you're referring to?

7 of the 21 vectors point to Jerusalem, Alexandria, Rome. Constantinople, Antioch, Pec, and Turnovo, the 7 Churches established by the first horseman. For example, the Sardis-Philadelphis vector points to Antioch. Connect the seven golden lampstands on a map and you get a sharp two-edged sword with the Isle of Patmos in the middle of it.

Who has said that it is?

You did.

The scales in Revelation 6:5 represent the selling of the expensive food in the famines of Revelation 6:6.

The expensive food made Great Britain rich.

Revelation 6:6 refers to future famines, when food will be so expensive that someone will have to spend an entire day's wages just to buy a quart of wheat. For when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". A denarion was a full day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart.

It does not say there is a famine.

We aren't yet experiencing them.

Just because you are a global warming denier doesn't mean the 7 last plagues are not here.

There's no "Battle of" Armageddon.

There is. It is also called the Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty.

The Euphrates hasn't dried up.

It was dried up by Saddam Hussein to prepare the way for the kings of the east.

There's no third coming.

The only way the Revelation makes sense is if you accept that there are two second comings.

What happened on those dates?

In 312 AD, the first Christian Empire was born. It ended in 1453 when the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople.

What happened on those dates?

In 800 AD the Holy Roman Empire was founded by Charles the Great. It was defeated in 1806.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 612:

The second coming, part 1, was in 312AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds.

Matthew 24:30 won't happen until the future point in time when Jesus himself will appear.

The second coming, part II (Rev. chapters 19 & 20) will occur soon.

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will occur at the same future time as Matthew 24:30-31.

They survived a lot of trampling.

How does surviving a lot of trampling fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)?

I already told you all that.

When did you account for all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

And six months earlier, on Oct.1, 5BC, Venus appeared over the hill country of Judea when John the Baptist was born, but in Luke's Gospel, Venus is called the Dayspring star.

Venus appears around the whole earth almost all of the time. It can't be the "star" in Matthew 2:2,9 for this reason, and for the other reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

7 human messengers would not be called stars.

They themselves weren't called stars, but were only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20).

The 7 Asian churches cannot be 7 stars and 7 golden lampstands at the same time.

It hasn't been said that the 7 Asian churches (in Revelation 1:11) were the 7 stars.

The seven golden lampstands are the things "which will take place after this."

Rather, they were the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" (Revelation 1:20,11).

John says the seven stars are the seven churches, and the seven golden lampstands are seven Chrurches.

Revelation doesn't say that the seven stars were the seven churches.

7 of the 21 vectors point to Jerusalem, Alexandria, Rome. Constantinople, Antioch, Pec, and Turnovo, the 7 Churches established by the first horseman.

What are the 7 vectors that you're referring to? Also, how has it been shown that the 7 churches that you're referring to were started by what you claim to be the first horseman? For the church in Jerusalem existed in the first century AD (Acts 8:1), as did the church in Antioch (Acts 13:1), and the church in Rome (Romans 1:7-8).

For example, the Sardis-Philadelphis vector points to Antioch.

How has that been shown? It looks like it points to Damascus instead, far south of Antioch.

Connect the seven golden lampstands on a map and you get a sharp two-edged sword with the Isle of Patmos in the middle of it.

How has that been shown?

You did.

Can you quote and reference the post number where it was said that "the gospel is a man"?

The expensive food made Great Britain rich.

Can you quote and reference your historical source?

It does not say there is a famine.

That's what Revelation 6:6 means. The future famines of Revelation 6:6 will be the "hunger" part of Revelation 6:8.

Just because you are a global warming denier doesn't mean the 7 last plagues are not here.

Global warming hasn't been denied. What has been denied is that it fulfills any of the 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16).

There is.

What verse refers to a "Battle of" Armageddon?

It is also called the Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty.

What requires that the battle of Revelation 16:14b will occur at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel), instead of at Jerusalem (Zechariah 14)?

It was dried up by Saddam Hussein to prepare the way for the kings of the east.

The Euphrates wasn't dried up by Saddam Hussein.

The only way the Revelation makes sense is if you accept that there are two second comings.

How has that been shown?

In 312 AD, the first Christian Empire was born. It ended in 1453 when the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople.

How was the first Christian Empire born in 312 AD? And how did it end with the conquering of only one city? Also, what requires that these events relate to any scripture?

In 800 AD the Holy Roman Empire was founded by Charles the Great. It was defeated in 1806.

How was it defeated in 1806? Also, what requires that these events relate to any scripture?

 

[shturt678]

Matthew 24:30 won't happen until the future point in time when Jesus himself will appear.

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will occur at the same future time as Matthew 24:30-31.

Don't you mean Rev.19:7-21 don't you? Satan, at Rev.20, had a little problem at the Cross and now has to work through the antichristian seduction, don't you think? BTW you nailed Matt.24:30-31, excellent beginning. Have to let the rest go as too far off the path, yet working together, we, together shall get on the correct path.

 

[interpreter]

Matthew 24:30 won't happen until the future point in time when Jesus himself will appear.

Jesus came into power through St. Constantine.

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will occur at the same future time as Matthew 24:30-31.

Wrong. You are talking about two different comings.

How does surviving a lot of trampling fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)?

The Orthodox Church(es) survived a lot of trampling by the 7th head of the beast, i.e., Islamic conquerors, during which time they shut up heaven.

When did you account for all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

I have talked about the four horsemen many times.

Venus appears around the whole earth almost all of the time. It can't be the "star" in Matthew 2:2,9 for this reason, and for the other reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

Venus very seldom appears directly overhead, as it did over Bethlehem on March 27, 4 BC.

They themselves weren't called stars, but were only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20).

The 7 messengers (or coordinates) of the seven churches are called stars.

It hasn't been said that the 7 Asian churches (in Revelation 1:11) were the 7 stars.

Their coordinates are. Why do you think Jesus had to wait until 95 or 96 to return with the Revelation? It's because some of the 7 Asian churches did not exist until then.

Rather, they were the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" (Revelation 1:20,11).

The 7 golden lampstands would be established in John' future.

Revelation doesn't say that the seven stars were the seven churches.

It says the messengers (or coordinates) of the seven Asian churches are 7 stars.

What are the 7 vectors that you're referring to? Also, how has it been shown that the 7 churches that you're referring to were started by what you claim to be the first horseman? For the church in Jerusalem existed in the first century AD (Acts 8:1), as did the church in Antioch (Acts 13:1), and the church in Rome (Romans 1:7-8).

Do you even know what established means? An established Church is one established by a monarch. The Churches you mention date from the first century, but weren't established until 325AD

How has that been shown? It looks like it points to Damascus instead, far south of Antioch.

Nope. It points squarely to Antioch

How has that been shown?

I gave you the seven cities, Connect them. Also the 7 churches in Asia, when connected, form the outline of a dove, the symbol of the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised to send to us to reveal all things.

Can you quote and reference the post number where it was said that "the gospel is a man"

You said that the first horseman was the Gospel

Can you quote and reference your historical source?

That's how Great Britain became a superpower.

That's what Revelation 6:6 means. The future famines of Revelation 6:6 will be the "hunger" part of Revelation 6:8.

Wrong. Two different horsemen.

Global warming hasn't been denied. What has been denied is that it fulfills any of the 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16).

Same difference.

What verse refers to a "Battle of" Armageddon?

That's what most people call it.

What requires that the battle of Revelation 16:14b will occur at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel), instead of at Jerusalem (Zechariah 14)?

Ar Mageddon is another name for Jerusalem.

The Euphrates wasn't dried up by Saddam Hussein.

Yes it was. I gave you a couple links.

How has that been shown?

Jesus first came into power through St. Constantine.

How was the first Christian Empire born in 312 AD? And how did it end with the conquering of only one city? Also, what requires that these events relate to any scripture?

The first Christian Empire was born of the day that the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds. It ended when the Islamic hordes overran the last remnant of the Roman Empire.

How was it defeated in 1806? Also, what requires that these events relate to any scripture?

By Napoleon I think. When you study the Revelation, you must put it side by side with a world history book and compare the two. And when it comes to today, i.e., chapter 16, just read the news.

 

[shturt678]

Jesus came into power through St. Constantine.

You said that the first horseman was the Gospel

....the reason using IITim.3:16 is so that the gold nuggets that Bible2 is dropping right onto your lap, your rejecting? Not even many on this forum are aware of this nugget, let alone this thread. Grab onto it! The composite is very close to the gospel, i.e., the Word of God!

 

[Bible2]

shturt678 said in post 614:

Don't you mean Rev.19:7-21 don't you?

No, for Revelation 20:1-3 will also occur at Jesus' second coming.

Satan, at Rev.20, had a little problem at the Cross . . .

Revelation 20:1-3 wasn't fulfilled at the Cross, because Satan still walks about on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 615:

Jesus came into power through St. Constantine.

Jesus came into power at his resurrection (Matthew 28:18).

You are talking about two different comings.

What requires that Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 and Matthew 24:30-31 are two different comings?

The Orthodox Church(es) survived a lot of trampling by the 7th head of the beast, i.e., Islamic conquerors, during which time they shut up heaven.

How did they shut up heaven? Also, how did they fulfill all the other details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)?

I have talked about the four horsemen many times.

But how have you ever accounted for all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

Venus very seldom appears directly overhead, as it did over Bethlehem on March 27, 4 BC.

What's your source for claiming that Venus appeared "directly overhead"?

Also, Venus can't be the "star" in Matthew 2:2,9 for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

The 7 messengers (or coordinates) of the seven churches are called stars.

The 7 messengers themselves weren't called stars, but were only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20).

Also, regarding "coordinates", Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 represented: Not the coordinates of the seven cities in Revelation 1:11, but only the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in those seven cities, which were in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey.

These seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on the island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9), which is just off the coast of western Turkey. For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

Why do you think Jesus had to wait until 95 or 96 to return with the Revelation?

Because the church wasn't ready until then to hear everything that Jesus had to tell the church in Revelation (John 16:12)?

It's because some of the 7 Asian churches did not exist until then.

What requires that that's the reason?

Also, why do you think that Jesus had to wait until the first century AD to be born?

The 7 golden lampstands would be established in John' future.

Rather, they represented the 7 churches which already existed in Roman "Asia" at the time of John (Revelation 1:20,11).

An established Church is one established by a monarch. The Churches you mention date from the first century, but weren't established until 325AD

If they existed from the first century, then they had been established, by the monarch Jesus Christ.

It points squarely to Antioch

Based on what map? And how has that one map been proven to be perfectly accurate, and others proven to be inaccurate?

I gave you the seven cities, Connect them.

Connect them on three different maps, from three different sources, and you will get varying angles for the vectors.

Also the 7 churches in Asia, when connected, form the outline of a dove, the symbol of the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised to send to us to reveal all things.

Sorry, there's no dove, just an imperfect triangle.

You said that the first horseman was the Gospel

What was said was that it could represent the gospel.

That's how Great Britain became a superpower.

Can you quote and reference your historical source?

Two different horsemen.

That doesn't matter, because horsemen 2-4 represent something cumulative. Just as the future famines of Revelation 6:6 will be the "hunger" part of Revelation 6:8, so the future war of Revelation 6:4 will be the "sword" part of Revelation 6:8.

Same difference.

Actually, it isn't, for denying that global warming fulfills any of the 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) isn't the same as denying global warming per se.

That's what most people call it.

Based on what scripture does anyone refer to a "Battle of" Armageddon?

Ar Mageddon is another name for Jerusalem.

It isn't, for Armageddon is a place in northern Israel.

Yes it was. I gave you a couple links.

Actually, none of the links that you gave supported the claim that the Euphrates was dried up by Saddam Hussein.

I gave you the cities. Connect the dots.

On which of the myriad, varying maps of the seven cities of Revelation 1:11b?

The first Christian Empire was born of the day that the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds.

The sign of the Son of Man won't appear in the clouds until the time that Jesus himself appears in the clouds (Matthew 24:30).

It ended when the Islamic hordes overran the last remnant of the Roman Empire.

How can a single city be referred to as an empire?

By Napoleon I think.

What did Napoleon defeat in 1806?

When you study the Revelation, you must put it side by side with a world history book and compare the two.

And you will find that the myriad details of Revelation chapters 6 to 15 find no fulfillment in history.

And when it comes to today, i.e., chapter 16, just read the news.

And you will find that nothing in Revelation 16 is in the news.

 

[interpreter]

Jesus came into power at his resurrection (Matthew 28:18).

Wrong. Jesus came into power on Oct. 28th, 312 AD when His sign appeared in the clouds. It is recorded in all the world history books, and is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.

What requires that Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 and Matthew 24:30-31 are two different comings?

Because the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds in 312 AD.

How did they shut up heaven? Also, how did they fulfill all the other details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)?

The Orthodox Church not only survived the years of trampling, but was able to rise up and defeat the beast in many cases.

But how have you ever accounted for all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

I have stated many times that the 4 horsemen are St. Constantine, Charles the great, King James, and George Washington.

What's your source for claiming that Venus appeared "directly overhead"?

Also, Venus can't be the "star" in Matthew 2:2,9 for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

I saw Venus over Bethlehem during an eclipse using Distant Suns, ver. 2

The 7 messengers themselves weren't called stars, but were only represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20).

They are called stars.

Also, regarding "coordinates", Revelation 1:20 tells us what the seven stars in Revelation 1:16 represented: Not the coordinates of the seven cities in Revelation 1:11, but only the seven "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in those seven cities, which were in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey.

These seven "angels" (Revelation 1:20) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on the island of Patmos (Revelation 1:9), which is just off the coast of western Turkey. For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

The seven messengers of the 7 Asian churches are their star-like coordinates.

Because the church wasn't ready until then to hear everything that Jesus had to tell the church in Revelation (John 16:12)?

Wrong. Jesus was waiting for the 7 Asian churches to come into existence.

What requires that that's the reason?

There can be no other reason.

Also, why do you think that Jesus had to wait until the first century AD to be born?

To fulfill all prophecies.

Rather, they represented the 7 churches which already existed in Roman "Asia" at the time of John (Revelation 1:20,11).

The 7 golden lampstands are 7 Churches of the future (John's future).

If they existed from the first century, then they had been established, by the monarch Jesus Christ.

OK, you win. Four of the 7 golden lampstands existed since first century.

Based on what map? And how has that one map been proven to be perfectly accurate, and others proven to be inaccurate?

Use any modern map.

Connect them on three different maps, from three different sources, and you will get varying angles for the vectors.

Use any map of Turkey.

Sorry, there's no dove, just an imperfect triangle.

Wrong. The 7 Asian churches form a perfect dove.

What was said was that it could represent the gospel.

Wrong. It cannot because a man is a man.

Can you quote and reference your historical source?

Read any history of the British Empire.

That doesn't matter, because horsemen 2-4 represent something cumulative. Just as the future famines of Revelation 6:6 will be the "hunger" part of Revelation 6:8, so the future war of Revelation 6:4 will be the "sword" part of Revelation 6:8.

horsemen 2-4 are not cumulative, or future.

Actually, it isn't, for denying that global warming fulfills any of the 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) isn't the same as denying global warming per se.

Either way, you are denying that plague # 4 is being poured out. Global warming will get much worse, and then maybe you will change your mind.

Based on what scripture does anyone refer to a "Battle of" Armageddon?

Why do you ask the obvious?

It isn't, for Armageddon is a place in northern Israel.

Wrong. Ar Mageddon means City of the Sanctuary or the City of the Place of God.

Actually, none of the links that you gave supported the claim that the Euphrates was dried up by Saddam Hussein.

They were the only two links left, and even those will soon cease to exist because it is old news.

On which of the myriad, varying maps of the seven cities of Revelation 1:11b?

For a map of the seven Asian Churches, see a Biblical atlas or a map of Turkey.

The sign of the Son of Man won't appear in the clouds until the time that Jesus himself appears in the clouds (Matthew 24:30).

wrong. All of the world history books record the fact that the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds on Oct. 28th, 312AD.

How can a single city be referred to as an empire?

The Byzantine Empire (the eastern Roman Empire) was based in Byzantium, the ancient name of Constantinople. When Constantinople fell, the first Christian empire fell, which lasted well over a thousand years.

What did Napoleon defeat in 1806?{/quote]The Holy Roman Empire.

And you will find that the myriad details of Revelation chapters 6 to 15 find no fulfillment in history.

Chapters 6 thru 14 have already been fulfilled.

And you will find that nothing in Revelation 16 is in the news.

From skin cancer through the Euphrates drying up, the seven last plagues are in the news.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 619:

Jesus came into power on Oct. 28th, 312 AD when His sign appeared in the clouds.

Jesus' sign won't appear in the clouds until his second coming (Matthew 24:30).

It is recorded in all the world history books, and is known as the turning point in history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth.

How do you define "Christian nations"? Also, how were they the dominant force on the earth during the Middle Ages? What about the Arab, Chinese, and Indian empires which existed during that time? Also, what scripture refers to Christian nations being the dominant force on the earth? Also, isn't the church throughout the earth its own, singular "nation" (1 Peter 2:9)? And aren't all Christians currently citizens of heaven (Philippians 3:20), so that they should currently be considering themselves as only strangers and pilgrims on the earth (1 Peter 2:11)? What scripture refers to Christians currently forming various political divisions on the earth, and asserting military "dominance" over the earth?

Also, Daniel 12:7b shows that at Jesus' second coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' second coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his second coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God will not share this glory with the church (compare Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

Also, in Matthew 5:39, like in Matthew 26:52 and 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Jesus commands Christians, who are under the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), not to employ violence against people, even in self-defense.

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for believers of what they are to do when they are physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). Believers are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36) just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23). During the future tribulation, believers will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (for example, Revelation 2:10-11). Obedient believers must not fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and must not love their lives until death (Revelation 12:11b), but must hate their lives in this world if they are to retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38).

Also, Christians are commanded to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and that means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

The Orthodox Church not only survived the years of trampling, but was able to rise up and defeat the beast in many cases.

How did the Orthodox Church fulfill the details regarding the two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-13)? Also, which of these details refers to them defeating the beast?

I have stated many times that the 4 horsemen are St. Constantine, Charles the great, King James, and George Washington.

How did they fulfill all the details of Revelation 6:2-8?

I saw Venus over Bethlehem during an eclipse using Distant Suns, ver. 2

What requires that Venus has ever been, as you said before, "directly overhead", that is, in the zenith above Bethlehem, and for more than just a few minutes, or that Venus has passed through that zenith only once throughout all history?

Also, Venus can't be the "star" in Matthew 2:2,9 for the reasons given in the "Matthew 2:9" part of post 603.

They are called stars.

In what verse are the 7 messengers themselves called stars, instead of them only being represented by 7 stars in a symbolic vision (Revelation 1:16,20)?

The seven messengers of the 7 Asian churches are their star-like coordinates.

They could have been 7 human messengers sent by the 7 churches to John on Patmos.

Jesus was waiting for the 7 Asian churches to come into existence.

How has it been shown that they all didn't exist decades before Revelation was written, like the churches in Ephesus and Laodicea existed in the time of Paul's ministry (Ephesians 1:1, Colossians 4:15-16)?

There can be no other reason.

There can, such as the church in general simply not being ready (until the time that Revelation was written) to hear everything that Jesus had to tell the church in Revelation (John 16:12).

To fulfill all prophecies.

Why do you think that Jesus had to wait until the first century AD to fulfill all prophecies (that is, regarding his first coming: Luke 12:44-46)?

The 7 golden lampstands are 7 Churches of the future (John's future).

How has it been shown that they didn't represent the 7 churches which already existed in Roman "Asia" at the time of John, just as Revelation 1:20,11 says?

Use any modern map.

Modern Bible maps are all different with regard to exactly where they place the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b).

Use any map of Turkey.

What map of Turkey shows the 7 cities of the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b)? Also, how many of these cities even still exist, and how has it been proven that a city or little village that exists today in Turkey is in the exact same location as one of the 7 cities of the 7 churches in Roman "Asia" in the first century AD (Revelation 1:11b)?

The 7 Asian churches form a perfect dove.

Sorry, but they form only a rough triangle.

It cannot because a man is a man.

If that were the case, then who would be the woman in Revelation 12?

Read any history of the British Empire.

Can you quote from where any one of them says, as you have claimed, that Great Britain became a superpower by selling expensive food?

horsemen 2-4 are not cumulative, or future.

Why can't they be both?

Either way, you are denying that plague # 4 is being poured out.

That's right. For even though global warming exists, it doesn't cause men to be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). So the fourth vial/plague hasn't happened yet. It would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

Why do you ask the obvious?

How is it obvious that any scripture requires a "Battle of" Armageddon?

Ar Mageddon means City of the Sanctuary or the City of the Place of God.

Actually, it doesn't. It means Mount Megiddo, a place in northern Israel.

They were the only two links left, and even those will soon cease to exist because it is old news.

Old news still exists in news archives. But you won't find in them any article saying that the Euphrates was dried up by Saddam Hussein.

When Constantinople fell, the first Christian empire fell, which lasted well over a thousand years.

Again, how can a single city be referred to as an empire? Also, how does its fall, or how long it lasted, relate to any scripture?

The Holy Roman Empire.

How was it defeated by Napoleon in 1806? And how does its defeat relate to any scripture?

Chapters 6 thru 14 have already been fulfilled.

Rather, Revelation chapters 6 to 14 haven't yet begun to be fulfilled. That's why the fulfillment of their myriad details can't be found in history.

From skin cancer through the Euphrates drying up, the seven last plagues are in the news.

None of the seven last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16) are skin cancer or in the news.