Something About Mary

[sculleywr]

I think its pretty cool how it points out how Hezekiah gave it no such reverance and called it a THING of brass (by interpretation of the word) and smashed it. And that which God himself commanded Moses to make and God (right there) giving His approval.

God wasnt, all like bad bad Hezekiah I commanded that one to be made, respect my holy icon, what were you thinking? Do you know all of these peoples hearts to do such a thing? Some werent burning incense unto it with an unclean heart (or wrong intent) because I know (I am God)

(That type thing)

Yes, when something is placed above God, it loses the significance it has. But we do not worship the Icons.

Here is how your logic is working:

1. God only commands burning of incense toward Him. (in Scripture, this is true)
2. Therefore we should not burn incense to anything or anyone else. (this is not clearly stated in the Scripture).

Taking that logic, we can make it wrong for people to kiss pictures of their wives, because a person should only show sexual affection for his wife, and nothing else. Were he kissing the picture of another woman, for reasons of sexual affection, then you might have an argument. But a person kissing a picture of his wife is not committing adultery against his wife by kissing her picture. Neither is a person committing idolatry against Christ by kissing a picture of Him.

 

[Fireinfolding]

In 2Thes 3:6-13 he tells them when they were actually with them what they had commanded them (in word).

Hearing now (being away from them) as he writes in the epislte some were not working at all and these (specifically) he commands they eat their own bread. So what he said before (when he was with them orally) he again repeats in the epistle and thus ends it with, if any man obey not our word (now) in the espistle, because he spake the same thing he did when he was with them.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Just reread the above it should read 2 Thes 3:6-13

But here too between here as well

Even in these two

2 Thes 2:5 Remember ye not, that, whenI was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

When I was yet with you (in word) these things I am telling you right now (in our epistle)


Typo on the post above I'll edit that

 

[Thekla]

In 2Thes 2:15 he tells them when they were actually with them what they had commanded them (in word).

Hearing now (being away from them) as he writes in the epislte some were not working at all and these (specifically) he commands they eat their own bread. So what he said before (when he was with them orally) he again repeats in the epistle and thus ends it with, if any man obey not our word (now) in the espistle, because he spake the same thing he did when he was with them.

There for sure was repetition, but there are things that cannot be conveyed in writing as well. In Paul's constant (repeated) exhortation to "be imitating", the manner (tone, bearing, reverence in actions), for example, of the person being imitated requires more than a written description.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yes, when something is placed above God, it loses the significance it has. But we do not worship the Icons.

Here is how your logic is working:

1. God only commands burning of incense toward Him. (in Scripture, this is true)
2. Therefore we should not burn incense to anything or anyone else. (this is not clearly stated in the Scripture).

Taking that logic, we can make it wrong for people to kiss pictures of their wives, because a person should only show sexual affection for his wife, and nothing else. Were he kissing the picture of another woman, for reasons of sexual affection, then you might have an argument. But a person kissing a picture of his wife is not committing adultery against his wife by kissing her picture. Neither is a person committing idolatry against Christ by kissing a picture of Him.

If you wet a computer print off the ink runs, though most cement figures got that clear coat on them so you get them really wet (lots of lips) and the paint remain in tact.

Though all the Jesus's all look different I wouldnt know which one was which because they dont all look alike.

Did you see the picture on the one thread in GT? That one looks exactly like Sly Stallone, around the lips and the eye area. I posted pictures besides that one, the ressemblance is uncanny.

 

[sculleywr]

In 2Thes 2:15 he tells them when they were actually with them what they had commanded them (in word).

Hearing now (being away from them) as he writes in the epislte some were not working at all and these (specifically) he commands they eat their own bread. So what he said before (when he was with them orally) he again repeats in the epistle and thus ends it with, if any man obey not our word (now) in the espistle, because he spake the same thing he did when he was with them.

We know for a fact that we don't have everything he wrote. There are two, maybe even three, epistles he wrote which aren't in Scripture. There is also the gospel of James which was not included in Scripture, despite the fact that many people confirmed the authorship who were accepted as authoritative.

Several facts: everything that Christ did and said was not included in Scripture, for even every book in the world at the time was incapable of providing enough space to do so.

For 330+ years, the Church functioned without having an authoritative identity of all 27 books of the NT.

For nearly 1800 years, the luxury of having a copy of the Bible in your house was only possible if you had a large amount of money, or were lucky enough to live in the Churches.

Irenaeus served in the mid 100's, leading the Church in the region of Lyons, in what is now modern day France. He had no written Scriptures, and the people there had no written language. Yet he praises them for their resistance to the Gnostic heresy of Valentinus.

Why did the Church remain united without a canon of Scripture and copies of Scripture in every house, and the modern Church can't be united when we have both? Because they had Tradition, and the modern popular idea of Christianity doesn't.

To be quite blunt, the division in the Church is because everyone wants to be their own pope, with the authority to determine for themselves what the Scripture means, and are unwilling to submit to what was always taught for the last 2000 years.

 

[Standing Up]

As to the actions of censing the brasen serpent, how did Hezekiah know it was wrong for them to do?

Because they werent bowing to it, or kissing it, and I cant find where censing is mentioned in respects to what a Holy God commanded to be made. Afterall the brasen serpent is considered an icon by some, namely St John of Damascus.

2 kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

They must have been praying to it (see Rev where incense is prayer). God alone is to whom we pray.

The other thing is it doesn't look like it was the priests, but the "laity". IOW, perhaps the priests weren't getting the job done (forgiving sin), so the children were turning elsewhere.

 

[sunlover1]

Because it is obvious that not all people have the whole Apostolic Tradition.

So what's that to you?
Besides, the "whole apostolic tradition" is available to all of God's kids.

 

[Thekla]

If you wet a computer print off the ink runs, though most cement figures got that clear coat on them so you get them really wet (lots of lips) and the paint remain in tact.

Though all the Jesus's all look different I wouldnt know which one was which because they dont all look alike.

Did you see the picture on the one thread in GT? That one looks exactly like Sly Stallone, around the lips and the eye area. I posted pictures besides that one, the ressemblance is uncanny.

The icons are not to be photographic equivalents.

They in fact are expressly not supposed to look realistic; realism is a depiction of the fallen world.

Icons instead are to point to truth spiritual; first, that Christ truly was incarnate and walked among us on earth, and thus that His crucifixion and resurrection were physically fact. But also, in not looking realistic, they depict a state of the human condition fulfilled in God.

 

[Fireinfolding]

There for sure was repetition, but there are things that cannot be conveyed in writing as well. In Paul's constant (repeated) exhortation to "be imitating", the manner (tone, bearing, reverence in actions), for example, of the person being imitated requires more than a written description.

I would think one would be led by the Spirit

 

[sculleywr]

If you wet a computer print off the ink runs, though most cement figures got that clear coat on them so you get them really wet (lots of lips) and the paint remain in tact.

Though all the Jesus's all look different I wouldnt know which one was which because they dont all look alike.

Did you see the picture on the one thread in GT? That one looks exactly like Sly Stallone, around the lips and the eye area. I posted pictures besides that one, the ressemblance is uncanny.

yeah. Western Jesus's tend to look like modern rock stars, with white skin, long hair, and what not.

While there is a lot of variation in styles, the standard is Christ the Pantocrater in the Orthodox Church.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The icons are not to be photographic equivalents.

They in fact are expressly not supposed to look realistic; realism is a depiction of the fallen world.

Icons instead are to point to truth spiritual; first, that Christ truly was incarnate and walked among us on earth, and thus that His crucifixion and resurrection were physically fact. But also, in not looking realistic, they depict a state of the human condition fulfilled in God.

Yeah, Icons and various images usually have that coating that those computer print offs dont, so you can get those wet and they wont smudge sure

 

[Thekla]

I would think one would be led by the Spirit

Yes; but also the epistles make clear that we fall short of this.

Just as the Scriptures/teachings reveal truth and thus give us a goal and something to compare ourselves against, so also the manner and bearing of those Paul says we are to imitate also reveal truth, goal, and allow us to compare against our self.

 

[sculleywr]

I would think one would be led by the Spirit

There are thousands of people who claim to be led by the Spirit. Look at how many thousands of divisions there are. Apparently, if they are truly being led by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not being a very effective leader. In fact, it would appear that He is being rather (HYPERBOLE) schizophrenic.

He can't be leading everyone, for He only leads in one Faith, one Doctrine. Not many thousands.

 

[Fireinfolding]

yeah. Western Jesus's tend to look like modern rock stars, with white skin, long hair, and what not.

While there is a lot of variation in styles, the standard is Christ the Pantocrater in the Orthodox Church.

It was this one

That looks like Sly Stallone

 

[Thekla]

Yeah, Icons and various images usually have that coating that those computer print offs dont, so you can get those wet and they wont smudge sure

They can wear down (though both encaustic and tempera wear remarkably well); some are partially covered with a "riza" to protect them.

An antique icon of the Last Supper is damaged (I think from Ravenna), and is left so. The original cracked, and the crack runs directly through Judas.

 

[sculleywr]

So what's that to you?
Besides, the "whole apostolic tradition" is available to all of God's kids.

It is? Then explain why they are all divided, on key points of Faith, such as Salvation itself.

 

[Standing Up]

Just reread the above it should read 2 Thes 3:6-13

But here too between here as well

Even in these two

2 Thes 2:5 Remember ye not, that, whenI was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

When I was yet with you (in word) these things I am telling you right now (in our epistle)


Typo on the post above I'll edit that

Good point. What Paul had spoke to them, he then wrote to them.

Speculating about what else Paul spoke also, is pure self-appointed popism masquerading as a bishop of such-and-such at its best.

 

[sculleywr]

It was this one

That looks like Sly Stallone

I honestly don't really like that one. It exists in some places, but I think it is a little weird looking and just gives off a bad...vibe. I hate using that word in relation to an Icon, but it just isn't something I would have hanging in my Icon Corner

 

[Standing Up]

It is? Then explain why they are all divided, on key points of Faith, such as Salvation itself.

Psst, everyone is divided, except EO, RC, P, Anglicans, SDA, etc, within themselves.

So what?