Something About Mary

[sunlover1]

"Mortals" are sojourning, what you call "spirits" have finished their earthly sojourn; both are in Christ.

Proximity, nor even the physical ears, are needed to hear in the Holy Spirit.

What number am I thinking of?

 

[sculleywr]

I agree.


I am not sure if the conclusion follow the premise. What eras say that they are constantly praying because they are dead in Christ?


Are the dead in Christ in heaven already? 1 Thes 4:16-17


Isn't the revealing of Christ the day of Judgment? And the Scripture doesn't say that we take on His character.


-"
And yet notice there isn't an intercession on any of our behalf. The rich man wanted that and Abraham said no " They have the law and the prophecy" and someone told the dead Saints to wait before they were avenged because other saints had to be killed.


Not to claim that it is not the dead saints, but I'm assuming that bowl is everyone's prayers.


That still doesn't explain the fact that we are never told to pray to a dead person to intercede for us. And none of the verses oven, showed that they prayed for us. In fact the one you show in Revalation said that they "cried out with a loud voice" appealing for Him to destroy those on their own behalf.

But I don't understand l, why not just pray to the only God we know who hears our prayers?

Because, that is excluding the community of the Believers who are all in communion with Christ. They are present with Christ, and are perfectly doing His will. If His will is for us to follow His commandments, and it is done on earth as it is in heaven, then intercession is made for others in heaven, since it is done here on earth. When we pray to God that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven, we pray that for every facet of life. That includes our prayer life. If our prayer life should include intercession for others, then why would NOT the prayer life of those in heaven?

 

[sculleywr]

What number am I thinking of?

Didn't the Pharisees take part in this kind of mocking when they beat Christ? "If you are a prophet, then tell us who it was that hit you!"

Probably not appropriate.

 

[sculleywr]

So you're saying that they are one in the same.
graven image=idol

No. I'm saying "Graven image" is not in the Ten Commandments.

 

[sculleywr]

We all bow down before(or around) things. Altars, even the wall at home. Some pray with their Bible in hand. It's the heart that matters.

Exactly. The Icons act as signposts and teachers.

 

[Albion]

Didn't the Pharisees take part in this kind of mocking when they beat Christ? "If you are a prophet, then tell us who it was that hit you!"

No. They were mocking Christ.

That's a rather important difference.

 

[sculleywr]

So you disagree with sculley?
Or with the Bible translators?

The Translators of the KJV favored flowery language that wasn't exactly accurate in this occasion. The term is Idol, not graven Image. In both Greek and Hebrew. Even Jews who speak Hebrew look at the KJV weirdly.

 

[sculleywr]

No. They were mocking Christ.

That's a rather important difference.

Yeah, but the type of mocking is not changed by the object of the mocking. It is still mocking, either way you cut it.

 

[sunlover1]

Didn't the Pharisees take part in this kind of mocking when they beat Christ? "If you are a prophet, then tell us who it was that hit you!"

Probably not appropriate.

Yes, I like to mock my friends and I try to
do it in a Pharisaical sort of way.

No. I'm saying "Graven image" is not in the Ten Commandments.

So you're saying that you understand it better than the Bible translators?

 

[Albion]

Yeah, but the type of mocking is not changed by the object of the mocking. It is still mocking, either way you cut it.

If you think so. But what you wrote was that it was like the Pharisees mocking Christ, which we both agree now was not the case.

 

[sculleywr]

The reason the word serve is not highlighted was because it was between these two words sculleywr is adressing here



So he is not adressing the verb or the actual act of serving them, but of the images and idols. So I just posted an example where you can find both in one verse. Which was an example of many verses I encouraged her to run to find (together) in other verses.

Showered and now hitting the road, suncritter enjoy the sun

Well, in the case of the action, one could make the observation that the writer used the "and" as an inclusive.

 

[sculleywr]

If you think so. But what you wrote was that it was like the Pharisees mocking Christ, which we both agree now was not the case.

Christ claimed to be a prophet, and then the Pharisees designed a ridiculous test of His prophetic ability.

A person says that hearing with spiritual ears allows people to hear the needs of others, and he designed a ridiculous test of that claim.

Yep, it looks, sounds, and smells like a duck. Anyone got some L'orange?

 

[sunlover1]

The Translators of the KJV favored flowery language that wasn't exactly accurate in this occasion.

EXCEPT that all of the following
NET,
God's Word,
ASV,
Douay-Rheims,
Darby,
English Revised

...also translated it inaccurately?
I'm gonna assume they understand the languages
better than you do, since there are so many of them
and it's their vocation.
Here's what's usually considered quite a good translation:

Young's Literal Translation

Ye do not make to yourselves idols; and graven image or standing image ye do not set up to yourselves; and a stone of imagery ye do not put in your land, to bow yourselves to it; for I am Jehovah your God.
​

 

[sculleywr]

Yes, I like to mock my friends and I try to
do it in a Pharisaical sort of way.



So you're saying that you understand it better than the Bible translators?

Actually, I understand it in the way that most other Bible translators took it:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

International Standard Version (©2012)
"You are not to make for yourselves an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above, or on earth below, or in the water under the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Never make your own carved idols or statues that represent any creature in the sky, on the earth, or in the water.

World English Bible
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:


While there are many versions which use the word "graven image", the Strong's is quite honest about what the word means:

פֶּסֶל
pecel
masculine noun
TWOT Reference: 1788a
Root Word (Etymology): From פָּסַל (H6458)
1) idol, image


So, where there is disagreement among translators, I will go with the definition. I am, myself, a translator, though not in these languages. I understand the rules of translating and interpreting. I understand enough that I can look at the language, with a basic understanding of how the process works, and use the definitions to determine what it means. It would probably take me a while to translate a passage without the Internet, but I could get by. The word means Idol, there are many translators which use the word. Therefore, I go with the evidence

 

[sunlover1]

Yeah, but the type of mocking is not changed by the object of the mocking. It is still mocking, either way you cut it.

Calm down already, There was no mocking going on.

 

[Albion]

Christ claimed to be a prophet, and then the Pharisees designed a ridiculous test of His prophetic ability.

Did someone here claim to be a prophet?

 

[sunlover1]

Actually, I understand it in the way that most other Bible translators took it:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

International Standard Version (©2012)
"You are not to make for yourselves an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above, or on earth below, or in the water under the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Never make your own carved idols or statues that represent any creature in the sky, on the earth, or in the water.

World English Bible
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Apparantly they used both idol AND carved image
"statue" etc.
So evidently both are no no.

Ye do not make to yourselves idols;
and graven image
or standing image ye do not set up to yourselves;
and a stone of imagery ye do not put in your land,
to bow yourselves to it; for I am Jehovah your God.

 

[sculleywr]

Did someone here claim to be a prophet?

let's boil it down. One person posited something, the other person proposed a ridiculous test of that posited point. It was not followed by an explanation, and so, alone, is not hyperbole, but sarcastic mocking.

 

[sculleywr]

Apparantly they used both idol AND carved image
"statue" etc.
So evidently both are no no.

Ye do not make to yourselves idols;
and graven image
or standing image ye do not set up to yourselves;
and a stone of imagery ye do not put in your land,
to bow yourselves to it; for I am Jehovah your God.

to Which point I went to the Strong's. Lexicons help here:

the two words used are:

פסל pecel, which means 1) Idol, image.

תמונה tĕmuwnah, which means 1) form, image, likeness, representation, semblance

Now. I'm not a genius, but perhaps I'm missing the idea of carving and engraving here.

As an honest interpreter, it would be ethically wrong for me to assume carving is involved here. The similar word "PASAL" does exist, to refer to carving as a verb or adjective. But the word does not appear in the verse. Why should we read it into the verse?

 

[sunlover1]

let's boil it down. One person posited something, the other person proposed a ridiculous test of that posited point. It was not followed by an explanation, and so, alone, is not hyperbole, but sarcastic mocking.

It was none of the above.
It was ME joking with my friend.
why wont you leave it alone?

to Which point I went to the Strong's. Lexicons help here:

the two words used are:

פסל pecel, which means 1) Idol, image.

תמונה tĕmuwnah, which means 1) form, image, likeness, representation, semblance

Now. I'm not a genius, but perhaps I'm missing the idea of carving and engraving here.

As an honest interpreter, it would be ethically wrong for me to assume carving is involved here. The similar word "PASAL" does exist, to refer to carving as a verb or adjective. But the word does not appear in the verse. Why should we read it into the verse?

You go ahead and ignore everything that doesn't fit your paradigm.
I'm sure we all fall into that error one time or another.