Avoiding church due to hypocrisy and lukewarmness

[Strong in Him]

And why would I want to attend a church when the majority have been taken over by women and have become feminized with female pastors? I'm a man, not a sissy.

You're also rather judgemental if you believe that all men who allow God to call women to be pastors, are sissies.

Then again, you have expressed a desire to be like Samson - and he was completely influenced by a woman.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Passionate for the truth?

What do you make of this passage?

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

As a Christian I have always had a passion for truth. I will accept the truth even if it hurts. I just hate and loathe deception.

When reading the Bible it has become commonplace for Christians, as well as Muslims and atheists, to cherry pick and distort scripture to their own advantage. For example, Muslims and atheists will often tell me that Jesus said he did not come to bring peace but a sword, and therefore, this makes Christianity a violent and dangerous religion. But what they don't do is read the proper context. Nor do they pay attention to the multitude of scriptures where Christians are commanded to love and forgive others.

But Christians do exactly the same thing. If something in the Bible causes uneasiness or doesn't comply with the church's man made tradition, it will be pushed to one side and rejected. It doesn't matter if you are dealing with a Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Calvinist, Seventh Day Adventist, Baptist, or Catholic. The truth of scripture will be ignored or attacked if it doesn't comply with their church sect.

The best way to know the truth of what the Bible teaches is to free yourself from the teaching of church denominations and study the Bible for yourself with a complete open mind with a passion for truth. If you are going to reject something simply because it isn't convenient, then you're not a lover of truth. It's that simple. Jesus and his disciples were so passionate about the truth that they were willing to suffer and die for it. This kind of passion for truth isn't very popular in Christianity today. Christianity today is more like churchianity.

It's this kind of hypocrisy and lukewarmness that has made me stay away from church. Most church attenders are nice people, but they are just too soft and politically correct. They seem to put the teachings of their church above God's word, and this frustrates me. I'm not saying everybody has to have 100% agreement on scripture. But what I see happening today is that Christians are deliberately picking and choosing whatever is convenient to them. Instead of reading the whole Bible and allowing the scriptures to harmonize with each other, they will pick out the parts that agree with them and ignore the ones that don't.

I use to have studies from Jehovah's Witnesses, and although I admired their passion, I came to the conclusion that some of their teachings were false and blasphemous; therefore, I had to leave them. I then went to a SDA church, and although I believe in Sabbath keeping, I did not agree with some of their other teachings, so I had to leave. I also went to a baptist church but discovered that people were too lukewarm and politically correct. No real passion for what the Bible truly teaches, so I had to leave.

I'm not saying the church has to be perfect, but in my opinion the church should have a passion for truth and be open minded. All I care about is the truth. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit it. But truth is what I am passionate about.

 

[Edward65]

As a Christian I have always had a passion for truth. I will accept the truth even if it hurts. I just hate and loathe deception....

I don't attend any church either. There aren't any denominations which teach the truth purely according to the Scriptures. All of them from my study of them have in one way or another adulterated the truth with false doctrine. Some things they teach rightly but some things they don't, and seeing as St Paul in Romans 16 warns us to avoid those teachers and pastors who teach contrary to the truth, we shouldn't attend their churches:

[17] I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. [18] For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
(Romans 16:17-18 ESV)

I agree with the teaching of Martin Luther and regard what he taught as the truth, but the present day Lutheran Churches have departed from the pure teaching which Luther espoused, and some can no longer even remotely be regarded as Lutheran. Christian doctrines hold together as one interdependent unit and if you mess with any one of them and teach something which is untrue it affects them all - it introduces a leaven or yeast which corrupts everything:

[7] You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? [8] This persuasion is not from him who calls you. [9] A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
(Galatians 5:7-9 ESV)

From the outside Christendom may appear to be in better shape than it has done for a long time. After all no one is actually persecuting others for any perceived heresy, and most churches are getting along in apparent harmony. The only problem is it's based on compromising the truth and is therefore a sham. Very few people are concerned about the truth any longer. It's all about putting on a good front and appearing to be nice and loving to each other. Yes we should be loving towards others but not at the expense of truth.

 

[TruthWarrior]

You're also rather judgemental if you believe that all men who allow God to call women to be pastors, are sissies.

Then again, you have expressed a desire to be like Samson - and he was completely influenced by a woman.

I didn't say men should make the same mistake as Samson; I was saying that men should be strong and tough instead of sissies.

 

[TruthWarrior]

Passionate for the truth?

What do you make of this passage?

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

I would say that you yourself are willfully sinning by neglecting the Sabbath day. Most Christians don't even know that the Sabbath is God's holy day that He gave to mankind lol. That just shows the level of ignorance the church has come down to. I would also say that when you try to talk to church members about the end times to encourage them, they stick their fingers in their ears and label you a fundamentalist.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Passionate for the truth?

What do you make of this passage?

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

I would say that you yourself are willfully sinning by neglecting the Sabbath day. Most Christians don't even know that the Sabbath is God's holy day that He gave to mankind lol. That just shows the level of ignorance the church has come down to.

I see. So, you sidestep the scriptures to attack me for allegedly not keeping Saturday.

Well done.

I reckon we know why you do not go to church any more.

 

[TruthWarrior]

I don't attend any church either. There aren't any denominations which teach the truth purely according to the Scriptures. All of them from my study of them have in one way or another adulterated the truth with false doctrine. Some things they teach rightly but some things they don't, and seeing as St Paul in Romans 16 warns us to avoid those teachers and pastors who teach contrary to the truth, we shouldn't attend their churches:

[17] I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. [18] For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
(Romans 16:17-18 ESV)

I agree with the teaching of Martin Luther and regard what he taught as the truth, but the present day Lutheran Churches have departed from the pure teaching which Luther espoused, and some can no longer even remotely be regarded as Lutheran. Christian doctrines hold together as one interdependent unit and if you mess with any one of them and teach something which is untrue it affects them all - it introduces a leaven or yeast which corrupts everything:

[7] You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? [8] This persuasion is not from him who calls you. [9] A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
(Galatians 5:7-9 ESV)

From the outside Christendom may appear to be in better shape than it has done for a long time. After all no one is actually persecuting others for any perceived heresy, and most churches are getting along in apparent harmony. The only problem is it's based on compromising the truth and is therefore a sham. Very few people are concerned about the truth any longer. It's all about putting on a good front and appearing to be nice and loving to each other. Yes we should be loving towards others but not at the expense of truth.

Well said. What it boils down to is truth. Like you said, very few people are concerned about the truth any longer. Most people choose to follow the sheep instead of doing critical thinking and making their own decisions. It's all an illusion. Most people don't even know that our governments are controlled by the banking elite and the Royal Families. The government knew 9/11 was going to happen, but they allowed it to happen so they could create a "war on terror" hoax to control people and go into the Middle East for oil. According to a whistle blower, Nick Rockefeller admitted that they would use the media to brainwash people. It's all an illusion. People have to stop being indoctrinated with lies and deceit and think for themselves. Stop following church traditions and examine the Bible for yourself.

 

[TruthWarrior]

I see. So, you sidestep the scriptures to attack me for allegedly not keeping Saturday.

Well done.

I reckon we know why you do not go to church any more.

I was just turning the tables. You quoted a scripture to try and threaten me, so I just turned it around and reminded you that you're the one that is willfully sinning because you neglect God's holy day and instead choose Sunday as the day to gather together. In other words, take the log out of your own eye before you look at the speck in other people's eye.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Passionate for the truth?

What do you make of this passage?

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

I would say that you yourself are willfully sinning by neglecting the Sabbath day. Most Christians don't even know that the Sabbath is God's holy day that He gave to mankind lol. That just shows the level of ignorance the church has come down to. I would also say that when you try to talk to church members about the end times to encourage them, they stick their fingers in their ears and label you a fundamentalist.

I see. So, you sidestep the scriptures to attack me for allegedly not keeping Saturday.

Well done.

I reckon we know why you do not go to church any more.

I was just turning the tables. You quoted a scripture to try and threaten me, so I just turned it around and reminded you that you're the one that is willfully sinning because you neglect God's holy day and instead choose Sunday as the day to gather together. In other words, take the log out of your own eye before you look at the speck in other people's eye.

There's no table, just one passage of scripture that you've ignored. Picked and chosen to ignore.

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

 

[Edward65]

Well said. What it boils down to is truth. Like you said, very few people are concerned about the truth any longer. Most people choose to follow the sheep instead of doing critical thinking and making their own decisions. It's all an illusion. Most people don't even know that our governments are controlled by the banking elite and the Royal Families. The government knew 9/11 was going to happen, but they allowed it to happen so they could create a "war on terror" hoax to control people and go into the Middle East for oil. According to a whistle blower, Nick Rockefeller admitted that they would use the media to brainwash people. It's all an illusion. People have to stop being indoctrinated with lies and deceit and think for themselves. Stop following church traditions and examine the Bible for yourself.

I don't agree with these conspiracy theories you're espousing. It too easy to be taken in by them and that's what Satan wants to happen. If you get taken in by them, ordinary people who have got some handle on reality will regard what you rightly say about the churches as also false. I've taken a fairly close interest in what happened on 9/11 and I'm fully satisfied in my own mind that there was no Government collusion. Anyway that's another subject which isn't the subject of this thread, so I don't want to get involved in any discussion about that.

Also I don't agree with your Sabbath day belief either:

[16] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [17] These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
(Colossians 2:16-17 ESV)

[5] One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. [6] The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
(Romans 14:5-6 ESV)

These verses show that the Sabbath isn't obligatory for Christians. Also when the Apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss what was necessary for the Gentile Christians to observe, Sabbath keeping wasn't one of them:

[19] Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, [20] but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
(Acts 15:19-20 ESV)

 

[Edward65]

There's no table, just one passage of scripture that you've ignored. Picked and chosen to ignore.

Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who has promised is faithful. And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

This verse can't be used to support the view that God wants Christians to meet together with those who attend heterodox churches - churches which have corrupted the truth with false teaching. There aren't any churches today which haven't introduced false teaching in one way or another, therefore Christians in line with what Paul teaches in Romans should avoid them:

[17] I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. [18] For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
(Romans 16:17-18 ESV)

 

[motherprayer]

This verse can't be used to support the view that God wants Christians to meet together with those who attend heterodox churches - churches which have corrupted the truth with false teaching. There aren't any churches today which haven't introduced false teaching in one way or another, therefore Christians in line with what Paul teaches in Romans should avoid them:

[17] I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. [18] For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
(Romans 16:17-18 ESV)

So its every Christian for himself? What about fellowship?

 

[Edward65]

So its every Christian for himself? What about fellowship?

It doesn't mean if you don't attend a church you can't fellowship with others. If you've got family members or friends who are Christians you can meet up with them "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” (Matthew 18:20 ESV). You might say, well that's a church, which is true. But my comments about avoiding churches was meant with respect to the organised churches not informal gatherings of Christians.

 

[motherprayer]

It doesn't mean if you don't attend a church you can't fellowship with others. If you've got family members or friends who are Christians you can meet up with them "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” (Matthew 18:20 ESV). You might say, well that's a church, which is true. But my comments about avoiding churches was meant with respect to the organised churches not informal gatherings of Christians.

Not all churches are the way you say all churches are.

 

[Edward65]

Not all churches are the way you say all churches are.

Unfortunately they are. Protestantism for instance when it originally referred to those who were in agreement with Martin Luther at the beginning of the Reformation was fully Christian, but when it became a more broader based description of many churches of divergent opinions and teachings it ceased being fully Christian, and of course as I agree with Luther I regard all those Protestant churches which deny the Real Presence Of Christ's body and blood in the Lord's Supper as heterodox churches.

 

[motherprayer]

Unfortunately they are. Protestantism for instance when it originally referred to those who were in agreement with Martin Luther at the beginning of the Reformation was fully Christian, but when it became a more broader based description of many churches of divergent opinions and teachings it ceased being fully Christian, and of course as I agree with Luther I regard all those Protestant churches which deny the Real Presence Of Christ's body and blood in the Lord's Supper as heterodox churches.

No, they're not. Or, as my three-year-old would say, nu-uh.

I've been to several churches which stress Scriptural doctrine and encourage growth in their followers.

Narrow is the path. We are called to spread the Gospel, we are called to take care of our beams before plucking others' motes. We are called to fellowship with other believers.

Yes. That DOES mean encountering people who don't have the same zeal or passion. So what. A person can't learn what passion is if all the passionate ones hide themselves away, OR if all the passionate ones get angry because of the real Scriptural Truth that many are called but few are chosen. OR if all the passionate ones become sanctimonious Pharisees. Hmph.

What happened to sharing the Gospel with an honest heart for the unbeliever?

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

What are you getting at? You're awfully concerned with my personal piety, and that seems to be the root of your entire argument: you're overly concerned with how other people practice their faith and if it isn't practiced according to the "Truth™" then they're wrong.

It really just comes across as mere priggishness.

FYI, doing my best means striving to engage in the Sacraments, prayer, meditation, etc.

Your personal piety and beliefs show what a person believes, because all what a person does and things come from their spirit.

If a person is good and always thinks and does the good things of God, then they have the spirit of God.

But if they think and do any evil (sin), which is not of God, then this shows they are controlled by a spirit of evil.

God says we will know them by their fruit. I've heard some of your fruit in words and it concerns me of which spirit you have controlling your mind and heart. This concerns God as well.

 

[fhansen]

Unfortunately they are. Protestantism for instance when it originally referred to those who were in agreement with Martin Luther at the beginning of the Reformation was fully Christian, but when it became a more broader based description of many churches of divergent opinions and teachings it ceased being fully Christian, and of course as I agree with Luther I regard all those Protestant churches which deny the Real Presence Of Christ's body and blood in the Lord's Supper as heterodox churches.

How do you partake in the Lord's Supper?

 

[Rev Randy]

That is exactly my point.

The Holy Spirit has left today's churches, because they have not desired what He wants to give them, which is total righteousness.

You said it yourself: "I've never met anyone who does not knowingly sin at times"

Christ came so sin could be conquered fully in a person, where He makes our whole being righteous - Body, soul, and spirit.

1 Thess 5:23-24 - Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. NKJV

Todays churches no longer believe this anymore, nor do they desire it anymore, so they have stopped being the light of the world and have turned to the darkness for hiding and comfort.

The Holy Spirit will never leave the Church as long as a single Christian is there. You do remember where the Holy Spirit resides.
As to willingly sinning: Even Paul admitted to doing wrong when he knew to do right. I would guess you can tell by now that I have a love for the Church and will stand up for her. But you do have a point that needs to be addressed. Many groups gathering as Christians are not as different from the
worldly as they need be. In a zeal to be accepting of all, many have become what they are supposed to be changed from. Baptism is taught to be "just an outward sign of an inward feeling. Communion is widely taught as 'just a memorial meal. I truly believe when they make it such the power therein become null and void and we end up with believers working things out on their own. Yes, we must each work out our own salvation but it helps when we have a body of believers with some ahead of us in that journey. I've found something odd along my journey and being an Orthodox this may sound odd. The most holy man I know is a baptist by attendance and by being a pastor. I've spent a lot of time with this man as he's my best male friend (my wife is the only one I'm closer to). Now he does not hold mainstream Baptist theology. But I assure you even me, a priest, does not spend as much time in prayer as this man and I spend many hours in prayer daily. Now here's the odd part: As we spend time together I notice his sins as few and far between. Yet when speaking to him I can't help but notice he sees himself as the worst sinner ever. His sins grieve him terribly.
Now from time to time I visit his Church as years ago I was the pastor of that Church. I can't say I've found a more devout congregation in America and yet they have their share of those who do not get it. I'm thinking that's as it should be. It's not that the devout are better just further along the journey than some.
Hey, I agree there are quite a few mega-churches teaching pure rot. There are even some fairly old groups who have accepted sin as proper even among their clergy. But I'm not counting those as the Church. I count those as counterfeit. Not all who shout Jesus are of the Church. Who is and who isn't is not mine to say. But I have full confidence Christ will sort it all out.

 

[CallingInTheDesert]

I don't attend any church either. There aren't any denominations which teach the truth purely according to the Scriptures. All of them from my study of them have in one way or another adulterated the truth with false doctrine. Some things they teach rightly but some things they don't, and seeing as St Paul in Romans 16 warns us to avoid those teachers and pastors who teach contrary to the truth, we shouldn't attend their churches:

I encourage you to attend churches and fight the good fight for God. Go into the churches like I do and fight the lies that people are believing with God's Truth. After awhile, if they don't want to come to the Truth, then shake off the dust off your feet and go onto the next church to do the Lord's work and fight for His Truth.

This is what God calls anyone that has been given His Truth, to proclaim and protect the Truth. God calls us to overcome the lies with Truth, so that people can be truly saved from their sin bondage. God calls us to be courageous and not be cowardly.