Confused about the commandment that was "abolished." (2)

[LittleLambofJesus]

So your entire "nice dodge" scenario was all bogus?

What was bogus about it



.

 

[tzadik]

What was bogus about it

"You are dodging"

"but I do realize that asking you that question was a bit naive since I now realize that it would require an entire new thread, since the question can take days, even weeks to actually "get into"

 

[Clare73]

That's nice. You take what he is actually saying and apply it to the Word of God, instead of the Law of God...

I mean it's not incorrect, seeing that the Law of God IS the Word of God...

In Ps 119, the NIV uses statutes, precepts, commands, ordinances more than law.
And I understand those terms to refer to the law.

 

[tall73]

No Tall73, not failed, simply went to bed, after a really long and tiring day of out of doors labour. Therefore, please have patience, when time allows for proper response it will be given.

I await the response.

 

[tall73]

Please do not assume, rather ask questions, for the vision [being very specific] I referred to is not the comment [which is not a vision] about those which left being the harshest critics. However, perhaps you should consider that statement also, since I detect some bitterness and harshness and jumping to conclusions unwarranted.

According to the vision, neither you, nor your wife will ever come back, and both of you may study all you desire, but let us go back to the texts, and come to the vision later.

If you don't make cryptic statements I don't have to assume. The vision, while perhaps very specific in your head, had no indication of what was meant. And you did not even quote my post, though you put it in quote format. Now if you have no time to response, what is gained by posting that?

As to the exchange going forward, I would be more interested in your answer to my inquiry, as it may help me to decide how much time I want to invest in the exchange.

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {MR760 19.2}

If someone comes to you with an objection to an Adventist pillar doctrine and they present Scriptures for you to look over, do you entertain their arguments, and examine the Scriptures, to see if they could be true? Or do you follow her advice and not receive them?

 

[bugkiller]

If you don't make cryptic statements I don't have to assume. The vision, while perhaps very specific in your head, had no indication of what was meant. And you did not even quote my post, though you put it in quote format. Now if you have no time to response, what is gained by posting that?

As to the exchange going forward, I would be more interested in your answer to my inquiry, as it may help me to decide how much time I want to invest in the exchange.

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {MR760 19.2}

If someone comes to you with an objection to an Adventist pillar doctrine and they present Scriptures for you to look over, do you entertain their arguments, and examine the Scriptures, to see if they could be true? Or do you follow her advice and not receive them?

The last question is my complete experience with SDA folks. There is no 2 way disucssion.

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

As Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the commandments in his hands, he did not know that the skin of his face had become radiant while he conversed with the LORD. When Aaron, then, and the other Israelites saw Moses and noticed how radiant the skin of his face had become, they were afraid to come near him. Only after Moses called to them did Aaron and all the rulers of the community come back to him. Moses then spoke to them. Later on, all the Israelites came up to him, and he enjoined on them all that the LORD had told him on Mount Sinai. When he finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face. Whenever Moses entered the presence of the LORD to converse with him, he removed the veil until he came out again. On coming out, he would tell the Israelites all that had been commanded. Then the Israelites would see that the skin of Moses' face was radiant; so he would again put the veil over his face until he went in to converse with the LORD.
(Exodus 34:29-35)

Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, the ministry of righteousness will abound much more in glory. Indeed, what was endowed with glory has come to have no glory in this respect because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was going to fade was glorious, how much more will what endures be glorious.
(2 Corinthians 3:7-11)

Look and see ...

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Look and see...

The last question is my complete experience with SDA folks. There is no 2 way disucssion.

bugkiller

Look at the response I got. No reply to the passages treating the ten commandments, no attempt to explain why Seventh Day Adventists say what they say about the ten commandments in the face of what saint Paul wrote, just a paraphrase from Isaiah.

 

[tall73]

The last question is my complete experience with SDA folks. There is no 2 way disucssion.

bugkiller

I at times find that the case. But not always. I have had some very good discussion here and also at CARM with some individuals who are willing to look at the details of Scripture. However, to save time I try to figure out right away if they are interested in that.

 

[bugkiller]

In its context of Ro 2:12-20, Ro 2:13 is a demonstration that no one will be justifified by the law (v.20),
which is the opposite of what you are using the verse to show here.


Does not mention just the Ten Commandments.
There are many commandments in the OT.

The law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2) which is love (Gal 5:6, 14; Jas 2:8; Ro 13:8-10) with no curse,

is not the law of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments with a curse.

Rev 22:14 has nothothing to do with the law issued at M Sinai in Horeb. Some wish to make it that to support their pet false doctrine and manipulate by intimidation, condemnation and fear. It is their way of saying you are not a Christian unless you adhere to their private version of the law. That is right it does not agree with the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

In its context of Ro 2:12-20, Ro 2:13 is a demonstration that no one will be justifified by the law (v.20),
which is the opposite of what you are using the verse to show here.


Does not mention just the Ten Commandments.
There are many commandments in the OT.

The law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2) which is love (Gal 5:6, 14; Jas 2:8; Ro 13:8-10) with no curse,

is not the law of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments with a curse.

Excellent post BTW.

bugkiller

 

[Leuko Petra]

...Or Psalm 146 language, which does not make reference to the Sabbath:

Psa 146:5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
Psa 146:6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever;

The claim of God as Creator is pervasive, and applies to all.

However, the sabbath was given as a sign between God and Israel.

tall73, surely you must know that Psalms 146:5 is citing Exodus 20:11, which came well before the psalm, and thus is directing us to the Lord of the Sabbath?

Thank you for citing the context, as it proves the point, in that in vs 5 it speaks of this "God of Jacob", even "the LORD his God". Thus a general description, "God..." and a name "LORD" [YHVH], but that does not describe which one, for many others claim to be God, and others even this YHVH. Therefore which one is being described? We do not have to guess, for the very next verse identifies Him [YHVH God of Jacob] clearly, as the very Creator "Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein [is]: which keepeth truth for ever:"; which is citing Exodus 20:11, the very God which created in 6 days and rested the 7th [Genesis], sanctifying it, hallowing it and rested in it. The very day which you yourself says still exists, and has not changed - http://www.christianforums.com/t7741471-22/#post62952483 . Notice that last part of Psalms 146:6, which declares that this Creator God is the very one which also "which keepeth truth forever"; and what does the Bible define as Truth? "thy Law [is] the truth." [Psalms 119:142]; and "all thy commandments are truth" [Psalms 119:151], etc.

For in Psalms 146:9 it reads, "The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.", and how does He preserve the strangers? He giveth them His rest [Exodus 33:14], the rest from sin [1 John 3:4], which is the burden and bondage [2 Peter 2:19].

Yet all the wicked are without such rest [Revelation 14:11].

You have stated, "The claim of God as Creator is pervasive, and applies to all.", and therefore I ask which Creator God do you worship, for there are gods many and lords many [1 Corinthians 8:5], all clamboring for attention, even those which claim the same name and functions except for in the details?

I worship the YHVH God with the Law of the Ten Commandments, which includes the 4th Commandment, His 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD, which identifies Him even by name, and His day which He hallowed, sanctified and in it rested. There is no other God, but He.

Christ Jesus is Israel - Hosea 11:1, Mathew 2:15, and thus all in Him, since all the promises are yea and amen in Him, are true Israelites.

 

[tall73]

tall73, surely you must know that Psalms 146:5 is citing Exodus 20:11, which came well before the psalm, and thus is directing us to the Lord of the Sabbath?

Thank you for citing the context, as it proves the point, in that in vs 5 it speaks of this "God of Jacob", even "the LORD his God". Thus a general description, "God..." and a name "LORD" [YHVH], but that does not describe which one, for many others claim to be God, and others even this YHVH. Therefore which one is being described? We do not have to guess, for the very next verse identifies Him [YHVH God of Jacob] clearly, as the very Creator "Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein [is]: which keepeth truth for ever:"; which is citing Exodus 20:11, the very God which created in 6 days and rested the 7th [Genesis], sanctifying it, hallowing it and rested in it. The very day which you yourself says still exists, and has not changed - http://www.christianforums.com/t7741471-22/#post62952483 . Notice that last part of Psalms 146:6, which declares that this Creator God is the very one which also "which keepeth truth forever"; and what does the Bible define as Truth? "thy Law [is] the truth." [Psalms 119:142]; and "all thy commandments are truth" [Psalms 119:151], etc.

A. I did say that the Sabbath day has not changed to a different day.

B. The text does not in fact mention Sabbath, but does mention the Creator, and the psalm referenced does indeed refer to the God of Jacob.

C. I think you will find that Jesus said He is the Way the Truth and the Life. truth can hardly be confined to only the law. However, Paul saw truth in the law. He just indicated that those who wanted to be teachers of the law didn't know what they were affirming.

For in Psalms 146:9 it reads, "The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.", and how does He preserve the strangers? He giveth them His rest [Exodus 33:14], the rest from sin [1 John 3:4], which is the burden and bondage [2 Peter 2:19].

It looks to me like it is praising God who helps the powerless.

Then you just read in other texts.

Yet all the wicked are without such rest [Revelation 14:11].

You have stated, "The claim of God as Creator is pervasive, and applies to all.", and therefore I ask which Creator God do you worship, for there are gods many and lords many [1 Corinthians 8:5], all clamboring for attention, even those which claim the same name and functions except for in the details?

I worship the YHVH God with the Law of the Ten Commandments, which includes the 4th Commandment, His 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD, which identifies Him even by name, and His day which He hallowed, sanctified and in it rested. There is no other God, but He.

You mean the one who gave a sign to Israel. Same God. We agree. However, I am a gentile, heir to the promises given to Abraham, but no conversion to Judaism required.

 

[tall73]

I worship the YHVH God with the Law of the Ten Commandments, which includes the 4th Commandment, His 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD, which identifies Him even by name, and His day which He hallowed, sanctified and in it rested. There is no other God, but He..

Do you also worship the God of offerings for vows at the temple? We see that in the NT as well.



Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

 

[Leuko Petra]

...Yes, indeed. And who didn't bind the law on the gentiles. Notice your text says nothing about sabbath keeping.

Read more deeply, see context, understand the words utilized.

You say "bind" as if the Law of God, were somehow a detriment to freedom and liberty, but is instead the very Law of Liberty; Psalms 119:45. The gentiles were in the bondage of darkness and sin, but God's people were to be the Light unto them. Hence when the Queen of the South came unto Solomon, etc. God even sent prophets to those nations, also, like Jonah to Ninevah. Daniel to Babylon, etc.

Acts 15:16 and Acts 17:30 reveal that the gentile nations which did not have all of the "oracles of God", nor "the Light", had in times past "walk[ed] in their own ways.", that is ways apart from the Law of God, and now God calleth every single person to "repent" [even as Acts 3:19, connects repentance and turning from sin; which is transgression of the Law of God]. Thus to turn back unto Him, to obey Him in His commandments, even as Isaiah 56 foretold, as does the whole of the book of Acts [Acts 15:19, see the context which includes verses Acts 15:15-18,21, go and read what James just cited, and why he cited it].

 

[tall73]

Read more deeply, see context, understand the words utilized.

You say "bind" as if the Law of God, were somehow a detriment to freedom and liberty, but is instead the very Law of Liberty; Psalms 119:45. The gentiles were in the bondage of darkness and sin, but God's people were to be the Light unto them. Hence when the Queen of the South came unto Solomon, etc. God even sent prophets to those nations, also, like Jonah to Ninevah. Daniel to Babylon, etc.

Acts 15:16 and Acts 17:30 reveal that the gentile nations which did not have all of the "oracles of God", nor "the Light", had in times past "walk[ed] in their own ways.", that is ways apart from the Law of God, and now God calleth every single person to "repent" [even as Acts 3:19, connects repentance and turning from sin; which is transgression of the Law of God]. Thus to turn back unto Him, to obey Him in His commandments, even as Isaiah 56 foretold, as does the whole of the book of Acts [Acts 15:19, see the context which includes verses Acts 15:15-18,21, go and read what James just cited, and why he cited it].

Read it. And I read James' conclusion that they not trouble the gentiles who turn to God.

Notice the letter sent out:

Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions

What were the people who troubled them saying? That they must be circumcised and keep the law.

That was rejected.

 

[Leuko Petra]

...He is asking them to turn to their true Creator and away from the notion that the people worship Paul and his companion as Hermes and Zeus. The people were about to offer sacrifices to them. No mention is in fact made of the Sabbath. ...

Acts 14:15, reveals the same language as Exodus 20:11, or do you not acknowledge this? Paul and Barnabas tell them to turn unto the living God, the Creator of all, even He who is Lord of the Sabbath [Christ Jesus].

Again, Paul directs their attention to the one and True God, rather than those false [you mention]. For as was stated before, many claim to be creators, but all are charlatans except the LORD of the Sabbath, the 7th Day, for it is truly He which created in 6 days "made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein", and rested the 7th [Genesis]. Salvation could only be wrought by that very Creator God.

 

[tall73]

Note that full participation previously meant being circumcised for the foreigner:

Exo 12:48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.
Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."


That is no longer the case.

One did not need to become a Jew to participate in Christ.

 

[tall73]

Acts 14:15, reveals the same language as Exodus 20:11, or do you not acknowledge this? Paul and Barnabas tell them to turn unto the living God, the Creator of all, even He who is Lord of the Sabbath [Christ Jesus].

They both describe the Creator as the one who created the heaven and earth and the sea. Naturally this is the same God referenced in the Psalm, and the same in the commandment.

That is who they said to worship. No mention is made of the Sabbath. In fact the people would not get it even if they had mentioned it. They were a bit more obtuse than that. They were about to offer sacrifices to them as Zeus and Hermes. I hardly think they were picking up on sabbatarian allusions.

It may amaze you, but it does not in fact amaze others that every mention of the God who creates is not an advertisement for Gentiles to keep Sabbath.

 

[tall73]

Again, Paul directs their attention to the one and True God, rather than those false [you mention]. For as was stated before, many claim to be creators, but all are charlatans except the LORD of the Sabbath, the 7th Day, for it is truly He which created in 6 days "made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein", and rested the 7th [Genesis]. Salvation could only be wrought by that very Creator God.

Lol, had they truly said all that then we wouldn't be having this conversation! Yet they did not say "and rested on the 7th", etc. as you just added to that text.

They simply pointed them to the Creator rather than their flawed gods.

 

[Leuko Petra]

...Because those who lived in Israel were bound by the laws given to Israel.

And that is just the issue in Acts 15. Previously if one joined Himself to God it involved joining themselves to Israel, and the law of Israel.

The council did not find that gentiles were required to keep all these things. Peter noted that the spirit came on them, just the same as on the Jews.

Notice, the issue in Acts 15 was not whether the Jewish believers would stop keeping the law. Why would they? The law pointed to Jesus and would point their fellow Jews to Him. ...

That is misuse of the word "law" as found in Acts 15, and abuse of the council's reason for meeting, discussion and decision. For you just negated the gentiles having to cease from murder, theft and covetousness, taking the name of the Lord in vain, dishonouring their father and mother, Sabbath breaking, and all manner of vice etc by the same argumentation, unless you agree that Acts 15 is not the end all be all of the believing gentiles behaviour in morality?

If so, where would the genitles learn more about the will of God in moral behaviour? Consider again, Acts 15:21, where those genitles seeking God knew to come for the "oracles of God", and the marvelous truth therein contained, even as they had been Acts 13:44, etc.

Again, Jesus is Israel, Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:15. We are to be joined unto Him, since all the promises are yea and amen in Him. There are no promises made to any, except as they be in Him.

"the land ... as He hath Promised", which is by God's promise found in Genesis 15:18 [17:8, 28:4, ect], well before the events at Mt. Sinai with Moses and the children 'Israel'.

The Holy Spirit is given unto them that Obey God -

And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32