Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

[Loudmouth]

We have the book of Gilgamesh where we are told that Gilgamesh wanted to talk to Noah and he did find Noah.

Noah is not mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

[Lucy Stulz]

We have the book of Gilgamesh where we are told that Gilgamesh wanted to talk to Noah and he did find Noah. The flood was right after Noah's father died. Noah's father would have been alive toward the end of Adams life. So there is a chance that Lamech actually knew Adam. After all he was descended from Adam. When I was younger we use to have family reunions where we would get as many people together as we could find and contact.

My original point being that if you wish to go with the best available evidence, why not go with the only real record we have of the earth's history: the earth?

Why rely on copies of copies of copies of oral traditions of unknown origins that were clearly developed by humans?

Humans have an amazing ability to "make stuff up". I can cite numerous ancient myths from all over the globe. Should I then expend more time trying to make reality conform to the story or find evidence of the story in reality?

Also God has the ability to actually take people back in time,

Herein always lies the strangeness for me. It seems that people who want to be apologists for the Bible cum history/science text spend so much time looking for any scrap of evidence that might in some unconnected way provide support for extremely complex, anti-Ockham's Razor type explanations but ultimately we wind up with the fact that God can do "magical" things.

So I guess the bigger question is: if the ultimate answer is "God has done a miracle here", is there any role whatsoever for science? Is science then just a nice "lapdog" that looks pretty but doesn't hunt?

so they can see these events. Not the physical body of course. Our soul and spirit does have the ability to go forward and back in time.

Mine can go back in time. At least as long as the memory-functioning neural pathways in my brain operate.

I have had dreams about the future.

I have too. I still don't have a hovercar.

 

[Joshua0]

Noah is not mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

According to Wiki: "Noah and Gilgamesh in fact may have lived at the same time." I do not know what version you are reading, but there are different books called the book of Gilgamesh from different periods of time. As the book was around for a long time.

"The book of Genesis didn't give a time period for its events. But a guesstimate may be made by way of the geological record. A worldwide flood took place sometime between 4000 B.C.E. and 2800 B.C.E. So Noah's ark may have been built at some point during that time period. The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' also may have been written at some point during that same time period. It has been dated to around 2800 B.C.E.-2700 B.C.E." wiki

The basic story was that Gilgamesh wanted to know why we must die.

he must know the answer to the eternal question: why do we die?

To find the answer, Gilgamesh must meet Utnapishtim – who’s parallel we find as Noah of The Flood in the Bible – Utnapishtim will give Gilgamesh an answer, neither the one he wants nor expects.

The Epic of Gilgamesh

 

[Lucy Stulz]

Noah is not mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

And, sadly, Enkidu isn't mentioned in Noah's flood epic.

 

[Loudmouth]

According to Wiki: "Noah and Gilgamesh in fact may have lived at the same time."

Yes, just like Batman and Superman were alive at the same time.

To find the answer, Gilgamesh must meet Utnapishtim – who’s parallel we find as Noah of The Flood in the Bible – Utnapishtim will give Gilgamesh an answer, neither the one he wants nor expects.

The Epic of Gilgamesh

Or the biblical authors just copied the story and changed the name.

 

[twinc]

Yes, just like Batman and Superman were alive at the same time.



Or the biblical authors just copied the story and changed the name.

thudder away round viz vice versa again and again with an uncanny urge or itch to accept the way out,weird and wacky to the Bible pristine true and original - twinc

 

[paul becke]

Here is an interesting article, and blog, for that matter:

Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Flood of Noah?

 

[createdtoworship]

Based on what evidence?

If you are going to claim that all the flood stories originate with the Noah story then shouldn't you have these dates already?

let me explain further,

if I made two photo copies of different stories, I cannot date the time stamp on the copy as being a valid date of the story. It goes by copywrite date. In this case it goes by the original manuscript. Which in both cases is missing. We can't go by the date of the manuscripts entirely. Because the span of centuries that these stories were copied was several thousands of years. It does appear the Biblical account is more accurate historically, scientifically, etc than gilgamesh. In the post I already gave, it mentions that gilgamesh is still considered a myth while genesis is not. You rarely have historical accounts originating from myth, but you may have myth from some historic fact.

So we need more info, but right now it looks as if Genesis has facts and details that are left out. For example someone may have tried to remember the story, got it wrong and whhooolllaahh, gilgamesh is born.

Gilgamesh was real (unlike batman and robbin), sort of like saint nicholas was real (but the myth of santa claus was born). So my example that myth is born from historical fact is true, but rarely is it the reverse (which you claim).

Also:
I do not know about gilgamesh seeking out is ancestor, Ut-napištim (allegedly on the ark). I have not looked into it very much.

 

[Loudmouth]

let me explain further,

if I made two photo copies of different stories, I cannot date the time stamp on the copy as being a valid date of the story. It goes by copywrite date. In this case it goes by the original manuscript. Which in both cases is missing.

In this case, we have two pictures that are entirely different, and yet you claim they are coming from the same source for the case of asian and north american flood stories and the Biblical flood story.

In the case of the Babylonian and Biblical flood story, we have a much older culture that produced the Epic of Gilgamesh, and a much younger religion that arose in Babylon that has a copy of that older myth.

It would look to me that you fail on both.

We can't go by the date of the manuscripts entirely.

So what are you going by?

It does appear the Biblical account is more accurate historically, scientifically, etc than gilgamesh.

Both are contradicted by 200 years of geologic science.

In the post I already gave, it mentions that gilgamesh is still considered a myth while genesis is not.

In the posts I write they are both considered to be myths.

So we need more info, but right now it looks as if Genesis has facts and details that are left out. For example someone may have tried to remember the story, got it wrong and whhooolllaahh, gilgamesh is born.

Based on what evidence?

 

[Joshua0]

My original point being that if you wish to go with the best available evidence, why not go with the only real record we have of the earth's history: the earth?

Why rely on copies of copies of copies of oral traditions of unknown origins that were clearly developed by humans?

Written history is different from the natural record.

 

[Lucy Stulz]

Written history is different from the natural record.

Yeah....nature seldom just makes up stories for entertainment purposes or allegory or metaphor.

 

[twinc]

Written history is different from the natural record.

it is recorded in the rocks = millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers laid down by water all over the earth - twinc

 

[Loudmouth]

it is recorded in the rocks = millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers laid down by water all over the earth - twinc

Just as they are being created right now with no global flood needed.

 

[Joshua0]

Yes, just like Batman and Superman were alive at the same time.

Oh, ok, so you do not think they were real people. I think they were both real historical people. So we do not agree. I suppose that it goes without saying if you do not believe in Noah then you do not believe in his flood either.

 

[Joshua0]

Yeah....nature seldom just makes up stories for entertainment purposes or allegory or metaphor.

We call it a shadow and type, but Christians have no problems with allegories. I use to read a lot of Christian allegories when I first got saved. The amazing thing about God, for me is that He can tell a real story about real people and there is still a lesson to be learned in all of that for us.

 

[Joshua0]

Humans have an amazing ability to "make stuff up".

Yes, there are lots of books. For example, Solomon wrote over 1,000 books. Only three of them were approved for the Bible.

I still don't have a hovercar.

American is a little bit backwards. Over in Hong Kong you can take the Hovercraft if your in a hurry and want to pay a little bit of extra money. I usually just took the Ferry. It was slow but I enjoyed the trip. I had plans once where you can build a Hovercraft out of the leaf blower that is out in the tool shed. I was thinking about buying one or building one to use on the more shallow streams to get around on. I have not followed though on that yet, but I may do that someday. There is some land I want to buy where I can set up a little park for people to get out and enjoy themselves.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, there are lots of books. For example, Solomon wrote over 1,000 books. Only three of them were approved for the Bible.

exactly, it's the words that are inspired not the authors. Peter made a book of the revelation I believe, and it was not part of the canon of scripture. Not necessarily heresy, just not divine. It's called "verbal plenary inspiration", although there are a spectrum of views regarding this. But IMO much more liberal in perspective.

 

[createdtoworship]

In this case, we have two pictures that are entirely different, and yet you claim they are coming from the same source for the case of asian and north american flood stories and the Biblical flood story.

In the case of the Babylonian and Biblical flood story, we have a much older culture that produced the Epic of Gilgamesh, and a much younger religion that arose in Babylon that has a copy of that older myth.

It would look to me that you fail on both.



So what are you going by?



Both are contradicted by 200 years of geologic science.



In the posts I write they are both considered to be myths.



Based on what evidence?

I actually never said they came from the same source, you said that Genesis plaigerized gilgamesh. But IF that was the case, it is probably reversed because the more complete account by far is the Biblical one.


I hold that the original story is the Biblical one. Now there is also a possibilit that the prince of the principality of the air to know "OF" the real story, (because satan has been there the whole time), and yet produce an entirely fabricated version. But there is always historical, etc errors as satan is not a perfect being, and his imagination comes up short obviously of real Biblical fact. For example the Jehovah's witness Bible is a grammatical nightmare. It makes several translation errors, and comes from a polyglot that no one recognizes or honors. If gilgamesh was considered inspired (not a myth), there would be a lot more criticism of it. But in fact many treat Genesis and Gilgamesh as contemporanious accounts. As if the followers of gilgamesh loved him so much they transformed him into this super hero.

But using the dates of copies?

not very accurate. again we need the original copies to truly know when in fact they were written. Because from the material themselves, they are very close in age and there are no genuinely debatable age markers in gilgamesh to assume an earlier date than Genesis.



Gilgamesh is close to the Genesis account but does not compare.

Just like the new world translation (Jehovah's witness Bible), is close to the Holy Bible, but at the same time does not compare.

I would not accuse of plaigerism, because I don't know, but I do know that the Devil is very intelligent and knows...

the most dangerous lies, are the ones closest to the truth.

 

[Lethe]

it is recorded in the rocks = millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers laid down by water all over the earth - twinc

A look, a Ken Ham/ Hovind drone.

 

[createdtoworship]

Here is an interesting article, and blog, for that matter:

Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Flood of Noah?

It's impossible to tell,

without access by the local governments,

and as far as I know, the islamic community around arrarat is not very supportive of a religious book other than the koran.

No wonder they don't allow tours.

but if you like that sort of website, you may like a video series thats pretty good

"the mysteries of the Bible"

It has a clip regarding the red sea, and metal chariot like iron wheels at the bottom,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLLhB-LLMGA

(you know how pharoah drowned in the red sea chasing after moses after He told Him to leave?"

Exodus 15:4-5

anyway here is the set I bought, good purchase:

there are several by that name but the one I like was this one:

Amazon.com: Mysteries of the Bible: Richard Kiley, Jean Simmons, David Wolpe, Daniel Smith-Christopher, Walter Zanger, William G. Dever, John Dominic Crossan, Lawrence Schiffman, Aron Tendler, Carole Fontaine, James D. Tabor, David L. Barr, Gayle Kir