Hypothetical Christian World

[quatona]

Do you mean to ask me if I can name one moral duty or obligation which is binding upon humans independent of human opinion?

Yes I can. I can name several actually, but this one should do:

Humans should not rape young children.

And this duty/obligation requires there to be a god for having a binding nature exactly how?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

My point is why complain about God not doing something that you will not even attempt to do?

For starters, it's the topic of the thread.

Another point I have is that you are wrongly assuming God is not doing anything about the suffering in the world, but how could you even possibly know this?

Suffering continues to exist. If God, a deity,

Another point I have is that you misunderstand what it means to be a human in brightlight's hypothetical world. In this hypothetical world, men and women have the capacity for making decisions and choices based on reasoning and personal desire. Men and women have the ability to love and to hate, to accept love or reject it, to wound or to heal, to build up or to tear down. In this world, suffering should not be seen as something strange or unusual, but simply a manifestation of the consequences of men and women's actions.

So whose actions resulted in tsunamis, droughts, and plagues?

Another point I have is that you completely skip over the most important aspect here, and that is a person's intent or motives. There are many instances where inflicting suffering upon someone is a good thing and the right thing to do. But you completely fail to understand that point.

I understand the point, I just don't think it applies. Suffering is only a good thing insofar as it helps us avoid further suffering.

It is sad that children are murdered. God grieves more than you do I can assure you.

His grief isn't exactly what's needed.

He spared not His only Son, who was murdered so lets not forget that point either.

It's not forgotten, it's just not relevant. God killed his son... and? It didn't stop suffering in the world, it just created a new religion.

You seem to be assuming that just because you cannot understand why things happen that therefore there is no good reason for God allowing them to happen. But this once again is simply an unprovable assumption. How can you possibly know that God has no good reason for allowing the things to happen that do?

Because ascribing logical absolutes to God allows us to predict his behaviour. His omniscience means that he necessarily knows of a way to accomplish his goals without allowing suffering, unless suffering is an end unto itself.

Of course I agree.

Does God know when a child is about to be raped? Yes. Does he stop it from happening? No. Therefore, his inaction is immoral.

God knew that children would be raped before He formed the worlds with the Word of His power. Yet He created. He knew His Son would be crucified at the hands of evil men before He created, yet He created. He knew that you would utter blasphemous words against Him in anger and hatred, yet He gave you life. I personally know of several women who were raped when they were young girls, several by members of their own family. I wish you could sit down and talk with them about how they view God and whether or not they think God is good or evil. All of them are Christians and use the experiences that they have had to help those in need who are suffering just as they have.

Does that make rape a good thing? Of course not, but God is glorified by those who put their trust in Him and look to Him for comfort. For God is the God of all comfort.

That these women believe in God doesn't not excuse his inaction. However they square it, the end result is the same: you, and they, believe in a deity who refuses to step in to stop the rape of children. A being that can, but won't, prevent such wickedness is not a being worthy of worship and glory - what has it done to earn our worship?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Because God is not evil. Simple enough?

If God can, but chooses not to, stop the rape of children, then God is evil. Simple enough?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

If God can, but chooses not to, stop the rape of children, then God is evil. Simple enough?

A god who exists, but is unable to stop rape, is impotent, and unworthy of devotion.

A god who exists, and is able to stop rape, but doesn't, is evil.

So again, the crux of the issue, at the end of the day is, no god is virtually indistinguishable from an actual god.

 

[Elioenai26]

For starters, it's the topic of the thread.

Suffering continues to exist. If God, a deity,


So whose actions resulted in tsunamis, droughts, and plagues?


I understand the point, I just don't think it applies. Suffering is only a good thing insofar as it helps us avoid further suffering.


His grief isn't exactly what's needed.


It's not forgotten, it's just not relevant. God killed his son... and? It didn't stop suffering in the world, it just created a new religion.


Because ascribing logical absolutes to God allows us to predict his behaviour. His omniscience means that he necessarily knows of a way to accomplish his goals without allowing suffering, unless suffering is an end unto itself.


Does God know when a child is about to be raped? Yes. Does he stop it from happening? No. Therefore, his inaction is immoral.


That these women believe in God doesn't not excuse his inaction. However they square it, the end result is the same: you, and they, believe in a deity who refuses to step in to stop the rape of children. A being that can, but won't, prevent such wickedness is not a being worthy of worship and glory - what has it done to earn our worship?

Who is it that commits rape?

God or human beings?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Who is it that commits rape?

God or human beings?

Humans.

Who is it with the supernatural power to prevent all rapes, but decides not to exercise it? God or humans?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Humans.

Who is it with the supernatural power to prevent all rapes, but decides not to exercise it? God or humans?

Ooh, ooh, I know this one. God?

 

[JGG]

No. (Sorry to disappoint you)

So, what are you saying that you deserve to go to hell like the rest of us? Does that mean you're going to hell like the rest of us that deserve to?

Forgive me, but haven't I seen you claim to have some familiarity with Christianity? How is it you are totally unaware of the most basic elements?

Can God lie?
Does He fail?
Does He change?
Does He currently have dominion over the earth, or everything in it?

Every one of these things, the Bible is quite clear on.

Yet, the Bible very frequently refers to God not only as Almighty, but the Almighty.

Not sure I do get at what you're driving at, but God is revealed as being "most powerful." The idea of "bigger than God" does not compute. If His Presence is omnipresent, isn't that the same as Him having no size? I don't think there is any way to apply the concept of "size" to God

Yes, but there is whatever exists that is unknowable to God, plus everything that is God/knowable to God. That would be bigger than God.

Correction: He did not do what you wanted Him to, as though He were your puppet on a string. What He may or may not have done in this situation is unknown to all of us here, and you have no way of knowing if it might be for the best as it actually happened. At the same time I am well aware that suffering sucks; we are all in the same boat.

So, how does that "look different" from God doesn't care, or there is no God at all, and people suffer for no reason other than chaos theory.

What does Iron Maiden have to do with this?

The guy fronts a heavy metal band, is the VP of an airline, flies his band around the world on a jumbo jet,and in his spare time rescues citizens from war torn countries on his plane. Maybe he's God.

Of course, his airline crumbled, so I guess not...

 

[Elioenai26]

Humans.

Who is it with the supernatural power to prevent all rapes, but decides not to exercise it? God or humans?

Ooh, ooh, I know this one. God?

And yet its the godless who accuse Christians for being intolerant bigots when they speak out against murder, against greed, against gluttony, against selfishness, against the pornography industry, against strip clubs, prostitution, sex trafficking, and against numerous other sordid vices that men are loathe to relinquish. Maybe God really is speaking through Christians and trying to encourage the rapists and hustlers and pimps and thieves and robbers and murderers and greedy godless to amend their ways.

Maybe God's words are falling on deaf ears....

On one hand, the godless want the godly to "stay out of their business" and to "mind their own business", and to "stop preaching" and yet now you want God to magically jump smack in the middle of virtually everyone's business when they are about to do something evil.



I think it is time for the godless to pick a side and stay on it instead of jumping back and forth and riding the fence whenever it suits you.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

And yet its the godless who accuse Christians for being intolerant bigots when they speak out against murder, against greed, against gluttony, against selfishness, against the pornography industry, against strip clubs, prostitution, sex trafficking, and against numerous other sordid vices that men are loathe to relinquish. Maybe God really is speaking through Christians and trying to encourage the rapists and hustlers and pimps and thieves and robbers and murderers and greedy godless to amend their ways.

Maybe God's words are falling on deaf ears....

On one hand, the godless want the godly to "stay out of their business" and to "mind their own business", and to "stop preaching" and yet now you want God to magically jump smack in the middle of virtually everyone's business when they are about to do something evil.



I think it is time for the godless to pick a side and stay on it instead of jumping back and forth and riding the fence whenever it suits you.

If your god existed, he would do something about it.

 

[Loudmouth]

And yet its the godless who accuse Christians for being intolerant bigots when they speak out against murder, against greed, against gluttony, against selfishness, against the pornography industry, against strip clubs, prostitution, sex trafficking, and against numerous other sordid vices that men are loathe to relinquish. Maybe God really is speaking through Christians and trying to encourage the rapists and hustlers and pimps and thieves and robbers and murderers and greedy godless to amend their ways.

Look at all the other things you can list that God does nothing about.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Several of these posts reminded me of this:

Sam Harris delivers like a comedian. Harris vs annoying Theist. Must see! - YouTube

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

For starters, it's the topic of the thread.

To complain about what you won't do anything about, that you perceive God doesn't either? Ok, I guess I missed that. If that's what this thread is for knock yourself out, but how do you expect God to do anything? His way of interacting with our world is YOU

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

If God can, but chooses not to, stop the rape of children, then God is evil. Simple enough?

Not simple at all to you, because you don't understand the mechanisms involved.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

To complain about what you won't do anything about, that you perceive God doesn't either? Ok, I guess I missed that. If that's what this thread is for knock yourself out, but how do you expect God to do anything? His way of interacting with our world is YOU

Hitchens comes to mind: "created sick, commanded to be well."

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Not simple at all to you, because you don't understand the mechanisms involved.

Neither does god, apparently.

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

So, what are you saying that you deserve to go to hell like the rest of us? Does that mean you're going to hell like the rest of us that deserve to?

Yet, the Bible very frequently refers to God not only as Almighty, but the Almighty.

You completely ignore what is said to you, yet complain about Christian's attitude about atheists?

I think you forfeited that right.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

You completely ignore what is said to you, yet complain about Christian's attitude about atheists?

I think you forfeited that right.

You have to earn the right to complain?

 

[Elioenai26]

If your god existed, he would do something about it.

People complain when God does something about it, and they complain if He does not.



In all of this one thing is for certain:

People complain alot.

 

[Elioenai26]

Hitchens comes to mind: "created sick, commanded to be well."

More like born sick, asked to receive the cure.