When Will Christ Return?

[eclipsenow]

Yes I believe that it's a actual city ... But i was asking eclipes of the amil version of what the city meant to them...

I'm about to go on a reformed, Covenant Theology Amil sort of Easter weekend: Katoomba Easter Convention. I might answer more on this when I get back, but as a quick sketch, the Heavenly City of God says a few things.

It compares God's kingdom with the world's kingdoms outlined in previous chapters, and it tells us theological truths about entry into God's kingdom, and the people who founded it and will dwell in it. In other words, it is just more of the same great gospel sermon we've had from the beginning.

 

[IvinViljoen]

...many, many more.

Give up Bible2, because I'm not actually reading you any more.

Lots of history there. It's difficult when this happens.

 

[Bible2]

Zanting said in post 918:

I don't know, because the Bible says we don't know.

But it doesn't say that no believers will ever come to know (see post 917).

Zanting said in post 918:

It is very important to read and study the Bible, but it should be for the purpose of becoming better servants and Christians...not future tellers and code breakers.

Christians shouldn't neglect eschatology as if it were unimportant. For the main reason that the Bible gives Christians clear warning ahead of time about everything they will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7), is so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 919:

Did I, or did I not, ask you never to repeat this paragraph again because I've addressed it multiple, multiple, multiple times?

Can you give an example of where you have actually addressed each point in the "Revelation is almost entirely literal" paragraph, and proven from the scriptures themselves that each point is in error, instead of simply dismissing the whole thing as "rubbish", or something like that?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

I've addressed your 'arguments' in that paragraph repeatedly for the last year, showing how just because Revelation contains the gospel promise of Jesus eventual return does NOT make it a literal timetable of the last decades of human history.

Note that the paragraph doesn't say that Revelation is almost entirely literal or a timetable just because Revelation contains Jesus' return.

Also, can you given an example of how you have proven from the scriptures themselves that Revelation chapters 6-22 are not almost entirely literal, and are not a timetable?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

What do you think? All of them.

Are you saying that Revelation contains all Biblical symbols? If not, can you show the Biblical symbols which you feel Revelation does contain? That is, can you show how each detail in Revelation was used as a symbol is earlier books of the Bible?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

But even if I were not referring to all of them, you at least know how the scholars I read view Revelation 20 and the symbol of the Millennium, where they explain how Judgement Day was in fact looked at from a number of different angles in the previous few chapters.

Regarding "the symbol of the Millennium", how has it been proven that the Millennium cannot be literal?

Also, how do you feel that the scholars you're referring to have proven that the final judgment day of Revelation 20:11-15 appears anywhere earlier in Revelation?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

Symbols like Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns and John writing to the 7 churches (when there were far more than 7 in Asia Minor) and the number of plagues and bowls etc all being SEVEN show that John is using the number in Jewish symbolism, as God's perfect number. These are NOT literal numbers, because John's use of the number in describing Jesus eyes and horns also shows us how he uses it in the rest of the book.

How has it been proven that any seven in Revelation is not literal? For even in Revelation 5:6, while the horns and eyes are symbolic, they can represent literal things, so that the number seven can refer literally to seven things. The seven horns of the Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent Jesus holding literally seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). These seven positions of power could be, for example, Jesus' power as the Son of God (Revelation 2:18), his power as the Word of God (Revelation 19:13), his power as the King of kings (Revelation 19:16), his power as the Lord of lords (Revelation 19:16), his power as High Priest (Hebrews 3:1), his power as the King of Israel (John 12:13), and his power as the Lamb of God (John 1:29).

And Revelation 5:6 tells us what the seven eyes of the Jesus lamb represent: "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth". These can literally be seven Spirits of God, which could be: the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2).

eclipsenow said in post 919:

Symbols like Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns and John writing to the 7 churches (when there were far more than 7 in Asia Minor) and the number of plagues and bowls etc all being SEVEN show that John is using the number in Jewish symbolism, as God's perfect number.

Regarding "there were far more than 7 in Asia Minor", how many more? And in what cities were they located? Also, how would there being any more than seven require that the seven are not literal? For the seven can be the only churches in literal Roman "Asia" (what is today Western Turkey) who sent messengers to John on the island of Patmos, which was just off the coast of Roman "Asia". For the "angels" of the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20, Revelation 1:11) could have been seven human messengers sent by those churches to John on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). For in Revelation 1:20, the original Greek word (aggelos, G0032) translated as "angels" can refer to human "messengers" (Luke 7:24).

eclipsenow said in post 919:

The scholars I refer to also back up that this would have been the way the original church received it.

How do they back that up?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

I listed the majority of times 1000 was used and showed how they were clearly metaphorical.

There are 521 instances of "thousand" in the Bible. How many of those did you list and prove to be only metaphorical?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

EG: "God owns the cattle on 1000 hills..." What about all the other hills?

How does that require that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:1-6 is not literal, or that the majority of the over 500 other instances of "thousand" in the Bible are not literal?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

I already did that when I went back and showed that none of your verses indicated that there was a Sevenfold Holy Spirit, which you justify because you want all the numbers in Revelation to be LITERAL.

How have you proven that the referenced verses don't support the idea that the one Holy Spirit of God could at the same time be the seven Spirits of God (Revelation 1:4, Revelation 3:1, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6), which could be the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2)?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

I'm done trying to discuss the genre of Revelation with you as you've repeatedly refused to answer the points here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473.../#post62706837

That was post 892 of this thread, the points of which were addressed in the latter half of post 915.

eclipsenow said in post 919:

... [your] "It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed.." paragraph, which makes no sense of the genre and misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal' (which it doesn't),

Regarding "which makes no sense of the genre", Revelation itself can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it's not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it was not written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (compare 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (compare Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.

eclipsenow said in post 919:

... [your] "It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed.." paragraph, which makes no sense of the genre and misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal' (which it doesn't),

Regarding "misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal'", are you saying that "unsealed" means "symbolic"? If so, how? For wouldn't it make more sense for something unsealed to consist almost entirely of literal statements, rather than mysterious symbols?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7473.../#post62719062

That is post 919, the one being addressed in this post.

eclipsenow said in post 919:

We do no agree on the basic genre, the basic 'rules of engagement' with this book, so I don't know why you insist on blurting out the obsessively detailed rubbish 'timetables' you indulge in so much?

How have they been proven to be rubbish?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

I'm not going to debate your precious, sidetracking *details* when you cannot cite one scholar that agrees that Revelation should be read literally.

How have you shown that even one scholar has proven, based on the scriptures themselves (compare Isaiah 8:20b) and not on any man-made ideas (compare 1 Corinthians 1:20), that Revelation should not be read almost entirely literally?

eclipsenow said in post 919:

If you cannot find credible reasons to read it literally, why would I take anything you say seriously?

How have the reasons given been proven to be not credible?

 

[Zanting]

But it doesn't say that no believers will ever come to know (see post 917).



Christians shouldn't neglect eschatology as if it were unimportant. For the main reason that the Bible gives Christians clear warning ahead of time about everything they will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7), is so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

Eschatology is part of studying the Bible...and we all know Jesus will return and are expected to be ready...could be today...could be tomorrow...could be next year. But spending extended periods of time on eschatology takes away time from helping others get to know Jesus as their Saviour. We don't have to worry about it because God is the one in control of our destiny. Consequently if a Christian is blind sided as you say...they weren't ready anyway. So I happen to disagree with your logic on this matter. Sorry. God Bless Bible 2, and may the Holy Spirit ever be your guide.

 

[Achilles6129]

Eschatology is part of studying the Bible...and we all know Jesus will return and are expected to be ready...could be today...could be tomorrow...could be next year. But spending extended periods of time on eschatology takes away time from helping others get to know Jesus as their Saviour. We don't have to worry about it because God is the one in control of our destiny. Consequently if a Christian is blind sided as you say...they weren't ready anyway. So I happen to disagree with your logic on this matter. Sorry. God Bless Bible 2, and may the Holy Spirit ever be your guide.

Incidentally, Christ says that the entire church will be caught unawares at his return:

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids[a] took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.[b] 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids[c] got up and trimmed their lamps." Mt. 25:1-7 (NRSV)

 

[Zanting]

Incidentally, Christ says that the entire church will be caught unawares at his return:

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids[a] took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.[b] 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids[c] got up and trimmed their lamps." Mt. 25:1-7 (NRSV)

If you were to die today...would you be ready? If Jesus returned today...would you be ready?

 

[Achilles6129]

If you were to die today...would you be ready? If Jesus returned today...would you be ready?

Probably not. But I am working on it.

 

[Biblewriter]

Incidentally, Christ says that the entire church will be caught unawares at his return:

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids[a] took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.[b] 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids[c] got up and trimmed their lamps." Mt. 25:1-7 (NRSV)

Actually, the scriptures say the very opposite. The bridesmaids got up and trimmed their lamps when the shout came that the bridegroom was approaching, not when He arrived. And two other scriptures show that those who are paying attention will know when the day is drawing near.

"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-8)

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." (Hebrews 10:23-25)

 

[Zanting]

I think we all have work to do...and I totally believe that we live in an environment full of distractions to keep out focus off being ready. That is where I believe the "unawares" and "blindness" rests. Media, music, video games, and what is going on next door (at home and away) are in IMO the greatest distractions, and satans greatest tools to deceive. We are not glorifying, praising, witnessing or dealing with our own salvation when we are caught up in all the things of the world in any stretch of the imagination. For my own self...I still have weeding to do to get rid of the things and ways of the world. I am working on it too.

 

[Bible2]

Zanting said in post 925:

Eschatology is part of studying the Bible...and we all know Jesus will return and are expected to be ready...could be today...could be tomorrow...could be next year.

Regarding "could be today...could be tomorrow...could be next year", none of those are possible, because Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Rev. 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16). Mt. 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thes. 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thes. 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thes. 2:1-4, Dan. 11:31,36, Rev. 11:1-2, 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of the 3rd Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15-31, Dan. 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thes. 2:1,8, Rev. 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thes. 4:16-17, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Prov. 10:30, Jn. 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17).

Zanting said in post 925:

But spending extended periods of time on eschatology takes away time from helping others get to know Jesus as their Saviour.

It could indeed. But the purpose of the Bible it not evangelism alone, but also to minister to those who already know Jesus as their Savior. Regarding eschatology, as has been pointed out, the Bible gives those who are already believers clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So they won't commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isa. 8:21-22, Mt. 24:9-13, 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12).

Zanting said in post 925:

We don't have to worry about it because God is the one in control of our destiny.

He doesn't take away our free will. So it's possible for saved people to wreck their salvation. For example, Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can in the end lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution, he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to keep from being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the future tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, compare Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take control of the earth and make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had become initially saved before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before doing these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

Zanting said in post 925:

Consequently if a Christian is blind sided as you say...they weren't ready anyway.

That's right, and one part of being ready is taking heed to all the details of Biblical eschatology (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16).

Zanting said in post 925:

So I happen to disagree with your logic on this matter.

What logic are you referring to?

Zanting said in post 925:

God Bless Bible 2, and may the Holy Spirit ever be your guide.

Thanks. Same to you.

*******

Zanting said in post 927:

If you were to die today...would you be ready?

We do need to know that any of us could die at anytime (Lk. 12:20, Jas. 4:14), but if we don't die before the future tribulation, it also matters that we know what we are going to have to face during the tribulation, before Jesus returns.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 926:

Incidentally, Christ says that the entire church will be caught unawares at his return:

"“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids[a] took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids[c] got up and trimmed their lamps." Mt. 25:1-7 (NRSV)

Mt. 25:6's "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation, possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist, could be set up in the holy place of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Mt. 25:6), this could mean at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming, that date possibly being the 1,335th day after the day on which the abomination of desolation is set up (Dan. 12:11-12, cf. Rev. 16:15).

 

[Zanting]

Bible 2...the logic applied to a focus on eschatology. If we are prepared, we are prepared... either to face death here on earth, or the return of Jesus.

Christians have been facing persecution, torture, imprisonment and death for centuries. Thus, it would seem the facing of the "Tribulation" has already occurred for many thousands of Christians already. We know that many died because they believed in Jesus...and many died because they believed in God before Jesus came. The persecution in the last days will have the same effect mentally as it has in the past (except perhaps that we are more blind/deceived today about what exactly defines the ways of the world the Bible speaks of). Some will remain faithful, and others will lose faith.

So my logic tells me that it is far more important for me to be building a strong relationship with Jesus my Saviour to enable the Holy Spirit to give me the strength I will need to face any test of my faith. Then I am prepared. For me that does mean to let go of as many distractions as possible that the world tries to impose on me, and spend more time talking with Christians, reading my Bible, thanking God for each and every day I have been given to become a better more faithful servant and praying for myself, my family, my friends and other lost souls in the world (I pray for everyone on CF too).

Jesus message to us is to be ready...everyday...and to take advantage of the time we have to become the obedient servants God wants us to be. That is how the Holy Spirit has led me.

 

[zeke37]

It is not for us to know the time and dates that Christ has set by his own authority. Acts 1:7

that's not what Acts1:7 says.
it says that it was not for them to know.
it was not time yet.

it is in the end, that folks will "know" sot hat day does not come upon them as a theif.
but our society has lost the ability for the most part,
to even determine the beginning of the new year, let alone the feasts and months of the year.

if it is a knowable date, which I think it is, but from God's calendar not ours
then our society will not be able to calculate it.

the diaspora calendar that current day jews use, is not the biblical one.


ps. I love debunking pre trib too....my favorite subject.

 

[Maon]

Mt. 25:6's "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation, possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist, could be set up in the holy place of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Mt. 25:6), this could mean at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming, that date possibly being the 1,335th day after the day on which the abomination of desolation is set up (Dan. 12:11-12, cf. Rev. 16:15).

************

Thessalonians: Apostasy and the Day of the Lord –by Maon

Paul comforted the Thessalonians with the hope of Christ’s coming and the saints meeting in the clouds (IThess. 4:13-18). He then continued,

“Now as to the times and the epochs (seasons), brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying ‘Peace and safety!’ then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober” (cp. 5:1-6).

Paul gave no further instruction, in the first epistle, concerning times and seasons; but encouraged their watch for the day of the Lord-- and reminded them that the day would come as a thief, and they must stay alert and sober.

Later, false teachers entered the congregation and taught that the day of the Lord had already arrived. Paul then give instruction concerning times and seasons. He challenged the false teachers saying, “Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction” (2Thess. 2:3).

In this, still keeping sober and alert, still looking for the day of the Lord, Paul taught that a departure/apostasy would occur first. But if apostasy is rapture, then why watch for the day of the Lord? Answer: apostasy is not rapture, and rapture does not come before the day of the Lord. On the day of the Lord,

“. . . the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1Thess. 4:16-17).

Well, you that wish may watch for the early bus of apostasy. I prefer to join the watch for gathering on the day of the Lord.

 

[Bible2]

Zanting said in post 933:

Bible 2...the logic applied to a focus on eschatology. If we are prepared, we are prepared... either to face death here on earth, or the return of
Jesus.

The logic is that studying Biblical eschatology can help us to be prepared.

Zanting said in post 933:

So my logic tells me that it is far more important for me to be building a strong relationship with Jesus my Saviour to enable the Holy Spirit to give me the strength I will need to face any test of my faith.

That isn't separate from studying Biblical eschatology, because Biblical eschatology is from Jesus and the Holy Spirit to believers, to help prepare them to endure to the end of what is coming.

Zanting said in post 933:

Jesus message to us is to be ready...everyday...and to take advantage of the time we have to become the obedient servants God wants us to be.

Amen.

Besides getting ready by studying Biblical eschatology, believers need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so they will endure the coming storm (Mt. 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so they will fall away during the storm (Mt. 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away (the apostasy) (2 Thes. 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Mt. 24:9-13, cf. Isa. 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12b).

But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?

 

[Bible2]

Maon said in post 935:

Later, false teachers entered the congregation and taught that the day of the Lord had already arrived. Paul then give instruction concerning times and seasons. He challenged the false teachers saying, “Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction” (2Thess. 2:3).

That's right. While 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture of the church, Paul there wasn't so much countering pre-trib rapturism as full preterism, which mistakenly says that the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (in the sense of already present), that the second coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already past (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), pre-trib rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-trib rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (for example, during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-trib rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the third heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (for example, Matthew 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 begins in the future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, the church need not fear this (compare 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it will not rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Maon said in post 935:

In this, still keeping sober and alert, still looking for the day of the Lord, Paul taught that a departure/apostasy would occur first.

That's right. The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some believers will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), in connection with the revealing of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and a worldwide persecution (Matthew 24:9-13) which will accompany his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Believers who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

 

[Achilles6129]

Here are a few ideas of mine on when Christ will return:

Christ compares his return to the times of Noah and the times of Lot (Luke 17).

This comparison seems to mean a time of universal wickedness prior to Christ's return. Again Christ asks in Luke 18:8 whether or not he will find faith on the earth at his return. This indicates a time of overwhelming evil as well, supporting the conclusion drawn from Luke 17 about the days of Noah/Lot.

The book of Revelation indicates a time of universal evil.

Paul says that in the last days perilous times shall come (2 Tim. 3). Christ says iniquity shall abound so the love of many shall wax cold (Mt. 24).

So, basically, we are given a picture of a time of an incredible depth of evil and rebellion against God. Basically, my idea is that God waits for there to be very few righteous people left on the planet before destroying it completely. God did this in the respective civilizations of Noah/Lot as well.

There is a very interesting fact about the destruction of Sodom that also supports this conclusion. Before God destroys Sodom, Abraham asks God if he would spare the entire city if there were 50 righteous men in it. God answers in the affirmative. Abraham eventually bargains God down to 10 righteous men and God says he will spare the entire city for the sake of 10 righteous men.

Could this possibly be a sort of allegory to the end of the world? That God will spare the entire world for the sake of a few righteous? So God waits until basically all the righteous are off the planet or there are very few left and then destroys it?

I think everything we have seen this far supports this conclusion.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 938:

So God waits until basically all the righteous are off the planet or there are very few left and then destroys it?

Regarding "off the planet", the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Mt. 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Lk. 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky (off the surface of the planet) at the 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17, Mt. 24:30-31, 2 Thes. 2:1, Rev. 19:7) before Jesus begins his 2nd-coming wrath (Rev. 19:15 to 20:3, Lk. 17:26-30, Mt. 24:37-39).

 

[Zanting]

Ok...I owe an apology to folks here about my saying that the second coming could come at anytime. When the time of the second coming is near, it is then that we will not know the day or hour, only that it is approximatrly 3 1/2 years after the wound of the beast is healed. This is a post trib, prewrath veiw. My error is that over the past year, I have changed my veiw from pretrib to posttrib and still did not fully understand what signals the begining/end of the great tribulation period. That is why I believed that Jesus could return anytime. I said this because Christians have been facing tribulation/persecution throughout Bible history and into today. I recognize now that there is a big difference between the ongoing tribulation/persecution of Christians and the Great tribulation/persecution of Christians that is yet to come.

There was a video I watched yesterday that really helped my understanding regarding end times. As such it cleared up my misunderstanding in regards to the tribulation period and when Jesus will return. Consequently, I sincerely apologize for my error as it may lead others to believe in a false doctrine.