When Will Christ Return?

[eclipsenow]

This is an improper argument. Who said such-and-such or when they said it has zero bearing on the truth of scripture. But for starters, I will list the following:

Papias circa, 110-140
Justin, circa 170
Irenaeus, circa 186-188
Hyppolytus, circa 202-211
Tertullian, circa 208
Commodianus, circa 250
Caius, circa early third century
Lactantius, circa 303-311
Apollinarius, circa late fourth century
Epiphanius, circa late fourth to early fifth centuries

In view of all these, is it any winder that in the fifth century, Jerome wrote, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

• they were admittedly futurist,
• admittedly Historic Premil
• but ten horns = 10 kings who divide up the Roman Empire? How on earth is that literal?

A literal interpretation of Bible prophecy was the standard doctrine of the early church, not given up until about the same time as they gave up the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone.

Evidence for this statement please?
Anyway, while Historic Premil (but with strong Covenant Theology) was the main view of the day, it was not the only view. Irenaeus discusses other views and says they are also brothers in Christ. I object to the way you're trying to equate giving up a 'literal' reading of Revelation (when they're actually saying 10 horns represents 10 kingdoms, which is hardly a 'literal' reading! It's highly symbolic!), with giving up the gospel. In my experience and reading of church history, obsessions with 'literal' readings of Revelation have created more cults than any other misunderstanding in scripture, including JW's, Mormons, Branch Davidians (Waco Texas), Jonestown, etc.

Go futurism!

 

[eclipsenow]

No, for there is no need. For sufficient reasons why Revelation should be read almost entirely literally have already been given.

Only in your own imagination.

Bible2:

I'm done trying to discuss the genre of Revelation with you as you've repeatedly refused to answer the points here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473593-90/#post62706837

You also showed yourself to be a copy and paste shill in this post, where you coped and pasted your infamously silly "It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed.." paragraph, which makes no sense of the genre and misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal' (which it doesn't), and for for the many reasons I've outlined in our year of conversation and the summary of which is here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473593-92/#post62719062

Sorry Bible2 but there's absolutely no point discussing what Revelation says and means with you any more.

GENRE IS SYMBOLISM
We do no agree on the basic genre, the basic 'rules of engagement' with this book, so I don't know why you insist on blurting out the obsessively detailed rubbish 'timetables' you indulge in so much? I'm not going to read them ever again! We cannot agree on what the literary rules are when reading this book, so why would I waste my time even bothering to read your endless ranting about Android Images of the Antichrist or whatever other rubbish you spam all over this forum?

YOUR DETAILS ARE BORING AND MEANINGLESS
I'm not going to debate your precious, sidetracking *details* when you cannot cite one scholar that agrees that Revelation should be read literally. If you cannot find credible reasons to read it literally, why would I take anything you say seriously? Just as I would not get into a car with a driver who did not have the correct prescription glasses on, I cannot engage anything you say about Revelation because you've got the wrong 'prescription' glasses on. You think it's literal. You think the fact that is is 'unsealed' tells us what genre of writing it is, and the fact that it promises the return of Jesus tells us what kind of writing it is. That's deluded. These 2 facts have no impact whatsoever on how to engage this book.

YOU HAVE NO BACKING IN THE ACADEMIC WORLD OF GODLY, BIBLICAL SCHOLARS
You cannot even provide a list of bible scholars who have stated that they agree Revelation is *literal*. It's not!

Here are the scholars I have mentioned previously who all teach Revelation is symbolic apocalyptic writing, *not* literal.

Dr Paul Barnett
Dr Leon Morris
John Richardson
Dr Greg Clarke and Dr John Dickson (Authors of 666 and all that)
Archbishop of Sydney Dr Peter Jensen
Dean of Sydney Anglican Cathedral Dr Philip Jensen
Countless staff and faculty at Moore College
Dr Kim Riddlebarger
And many, many more.

YOU USE CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS TO JUSTIFY IT BEING LITERAL
You see the symbols in Revelation as a timetable of future events, then use that to try and justify it being a literal book. But your presupposition that it is literal rests on your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events of the future! Then you use your assumption that it is literal to try and justify it being a future timetable! That's circular reasoning and is faulty to a core. Can't you see that the way you read Revelation as a future timetable is the lens you are using to try and justify it being literal when in fact you have to justify both?

Both flow from your own *presuppositions* ABOUT Revelation. I read each of these events as symbolic, even the scene of God's throne in heaven. Why do you think it is literal? Nothing in the passage shows it to be literal. Sorry, but you're out of your league. Dr John Dickson makes far more sense than anything you say.

This is how you work:
Step 1: assume it's a timetable of the future because then Revelation becomes exciting, it's all about US! Party on! We're SUDDENLY SPECIAL!
Step 2: But that means we need to insert it somewhere. I know... look for words that denote the passage of time... like the word 'after'.
Step 3: Come up with random reasons why it is early enough in the book to make most of the book about us. So ignore the earlier 'after this' moments, and CERTAINLY ignore the later ones in Chapter 19 (otherwise most of the book would NOT be about us!)

You think these symbols are about future events that have never been fulfilled? They're only 'never fulfilled' because of your silly, unjustified presuppositions. I see them fulfilled ALL THE TIME! They are symbolic sermons generally describing the kind of life Christians will have to survive in these Last Days. I see these metaphors unfolding in the world every single day.

 

[Achilles6129]

I think the big question is why the book of Revelation portrarys the imminent return of Christ and the imminent beginning of the book. For example:

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev. 2:5

"Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Rev. 2:16

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Rev. 3:11

"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book." Rev. 22:7

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20

And also:

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Rev. 1:3

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." Rev. 22:10

 

[Raibeart MacIlleathain]

Well, are we?

When are we going to get there?

It's taking, like, for EVer.

I'd ask for a bathroom break, but I don't have to go.

(Sorry, but that image flew threw my head: Jesus driving a busload of us to earth, and Him having to hear what we parents used to hear when out kids were, like, .... under thirty.

 

[Raibeart MacIlleathain]

Global Warming is now so serious I am convinced that we will have to use SPICE** to save civilisation. Our grandchildren may be forced to paint the skies white! Blue skies may not be permitted for many centuries to come! Clean energy has been too little too late. We have failed. Our grandchildren will curse us for ignorant fools.

** (Stratospheric Particle Injection for Climate Engineering)


Like trans-speciation, global 'warming' is a lot of assumption mixed with dogmatism mixed with paganism... hence the pictures of this planet with captions exhorting us to "love our mother."

In reality, Mordag is not the mother of the earth. I'm told she was a druidh high priestess who came to earth to teach the wondering tribes of central Europe her laws and ways. In the end, prior to her return to the Haven, she and the tribes entered into a covenant. From that day forth, Mordak would be called Gaea and the tribes, her children, would from thenceforth be known as Gaels.

Or, maybe not. But if I repeat that story over and over, others will pick it up and spread it like Gospel truth until the day comes when any one sceptical of this story will be ostracised and ridiculed as a denier.
RM

 

[Frenchfrye]

Christ says we wont know the day nor hour.

 

[Achilles6129]

Well, are we?

When are we going to get there?

It's taking, like, for EVer.

I'd ask for a bathroom break, but I don't have to go.

(Sorry, but that image flew threw my head: Jesus driving a busload of us to earth, and Him having to hear what we parents used to hear when out kids were, like, .... under thirty.

Yes I know. That is why I was quoting those verses in the book of Revelation and asking the question. Why has it taken so long? The author of the book of Revelation says that the time is at hand. The angel at the end tells John not to seal the book because the time is at hand.

Yet it has been 1900 years and, if we take the book literally, none of the plagues have happened yet. Christ certainly hasn't returned yet. So what's going on? Does time run differently in heaven than on earth? What's the explanation?

In all honesty, the statements about the time being 'near' have become something of an embarrassment for Christianity. I will admit that they are difficult to explain. Anyone have any ideas?

Christ says we wont know the day nor hour.

Yep, that's correct. Christ gave very general predictions about the end, so that we are left in ambiguity - evidently, that way we are prepared for his coming at any time. However, the book of Revelation gets more specific, if it is indeed literal.

 

[Biblewriter]

• they were admittedly futurist,
• admittedly Historic Premil
• but ten horns = 10 kings who divide up the Roman Empire? How on earth is that literal?
• Evidence for this statement please?

"Thus he said: 'The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces. The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.'" (Daniel 7:23-24)


Rome was unquestionably the fourth of the four great empires that ruled the ancient world, beginning with the time of Daniel. So saying it is Rome is indeed literal, as is saying that the ten horns represent ten kings.

Again, "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast." (Revelation 17:12)

 

[zeke37]

interesting note...
the one king that leads them, comes up after the 10.
so he is not part of them.

 

[zeke37]

Yep, that's correct. Christ gave very general predictions about the end, so that we are left in ambiguity - evidently, that way we are prepared for his coming at any time. However, the book of Revelation gets more specific, if it is indeed literal.

actually, the scriptures make it fairly clear that some of us will know the "when"
but most of us won't.

for example, in Gen6 God mentions 120 years.

what if those were Jubilee years?
50 x 120 = 6000

and that is about where we are in history.

 

[Zanting]

It is very true that the time is near has been taught since Jesus walked on the earth. Yet He does chastise us for being able to recognize the signs for determining weather, but not the signs of His return. Do we have to have special knowledge to read the signs or are they right in front of us and we simply deny they exist because it is too fantastic or too much like science fiction or too horrific to be believed?
If we look at the capabilities of science and technology in areas such as transhumanism and geoengineering, the concepts are frightening, yet they do exist and are being experimented with. We also have they internet where the entire world can have access to information...including the gospel which can literally and virtually be spread to all nations.

Jesus talked about the end times being as in the days of Noah. If we look back to that time, which was a totally different world than we are in today...God became very upset with what had become of His creation because His natural order had been altered. When the fallen angels came they not only manipulated the genetic order, but also brought increased technical knowledge.
Do we ignore what is happening right now in the world? Did all these technologies, genetic engineering, weather manipulation, access to knowledge have to be in place first...or is it all just life as usual? Do we still consume aspertame and MSG in our foods when we know it is poison? What about floride? What about genetically modified foods, crops, seeds? Is mind control of the masses through the media real? Are we being morally compromised by the music industry? Many say it is all just conspiracy nonsense without any bases in reality. Is it, or are these the signs Jesus talked about?

 

[Achilles6129]

actually, the scriptures make it fairly clear that some of us will know the "when"
but most of us won't.

for example, in Gen6 God mentions 120 years.

what if those were Jubilee years?
50 x 120 = 6000

and that is about where we are in history.

Right, 1 Th. 5 - Paul says they are in the light so that day will not overtake them as a thief. However, in Mt. 25 the parable of the maidens indicates that the entire church - all of professing Christianity - is fast asleep near the return of Christ.

Also, you still have to explain the statements made in the book of Revelation about the imminency of the end. Here they are again:

I think the big question is why the book of Revelation portrarys the imminent return of Christ and the imminent beginning of the book. For example:

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev. 2:5

"Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Rev. 2:16

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Rev. 3:11

"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book." Rev. 22:7

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20

And also:

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Rev. 1:3

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." Rev. 22:10

 

[eclipsenow]

The imminence and urgency in Revelation would not be there if the the same book was outlining a future timetable of 2000 years later! No! Revelation is demonstrating the urgency and desperation and danger in the times in which we live, these Last Days (since Acts2) in which the Lord really could return any day, because everything that is required was fulfilled on the cross.

This is what futurists would take away from us all!

 

[dfw69]

The imminence and urgency in Revelation would not be there if the the same book was outlining a future timetable of 2000 years later! No! Revelation is demonstrating the urgency and desperation and danger in the times in which we live, these Last Days (since Acts2) in which the Lord really could return any day, because everything that is required was fulfilled on the cross.

This is what futurists would take away from us all!

You are so bent on the so called deceptions of futurist teachings leading people astray like men such as David koresh and such ... These isolated incidents will be nothing compared to the preterist doctrine leading many (perhaps in a grand scale) to believe and except a false messiah...

What if governments of the world create a deception so grand that the end has come? ...That Christ has come? ... Many preterist would gladly fall away.. For they believe Jesus return is at any moment... And nothing prophecied including fururist doctrine stand in his way...


Yet Jesus warns beware of the coming deception of a false messiah...and false messianic age or false new heaven and new earth...I call the new heaven and new earth deception

This coming age will cause many to fall away from the faith ....for they will believe Christ had returned ...

Can't you see the dangers of preterism doctrine?

 

[eclipsenow]

You are so bent on the so called deceptions of futurist teachings leading people astray like men such as David koresh and such ... These isolated incidents will be nothing compared to the preterist doctrine leading many (perhaps in a grand scale) to believe and except a false messiah...

What if governments of the world create a deception so grand that the end has come? ...That Christ has come? ... Many preterist would gladly fall away.. For they believe Jesus return is at any moment... And nothing prophecied including fururist doctrine stand in his way...


Yet Jesus warns beware of the coming deception of a false messiah...and false messianic age or false new heaven and new earth...I call the new heaven and new earth deception

This coming age will cause many to fall away from the faith ....for they will believe Christ had returned ...

Can't you see the dangers of preterism doctrine?

I trust in the Lord who died for my rebellion against God, rose again on the third day, and reigns over all time and space and history and hears my prayers. What can a 'false Messiah' do to me? How on earth are there any dangers for Amils from a 'false Messiah' if we believe that there are always anti-Christ's and false Messiahs around? If anything, it's the futurist who is likely to be caught unawares because it appears they are so side-tracked trying to understand these confusing 'end times' schemes you futurists draw up that they become easy fodder for false Christs.

This coming age will cause many to fall away from the faith ....for they will believe Christ had returned ...

Are you kidding? Who? Me? No baby. I'll believe the Lord has returned when heaven and earth have melted away, evil, Satan, and sin and death itself have all been judged, and we reign forever in the new creation. That, and only that, will tell me that the Lord has returned!

 

[dfw69]

I trust in the Lord who died for my rebellion against God, rose again on the third day, and reigns over all time and space and history and hears my prayers. What can a 'false Messiah' do to me? How on earth are there any dangers for Amils from a 'false Messiah' if we believe that there are always anti-Christ's and false Messiahs around? If anything, it's the futurist who is likely to be caught unawares because it appears they are so side-tracked trying to understand these confusing 'end times' schemes you futurists draw up that they become easy fodder for false Christs.

Don't cast off completely futurist doctrine just yet.....prophecy can save lives... No we are not prophets.. But prophecy in scripture is from god and if futurist are correct in our interpretation .. Then many will not fall when they begin to pull the wool over our eyes.... The Old Testament prophets fortold Israel of things to come... Many just would not listen to the warnings... Seems like they were always caught off guard..

Are you kidding? Who? Me? No baby. I'll believe the Lord has returned when heaven and earth have melted away, evil, Satan, and sin and death itself have all been judged, and we reign forever in the new creation. That, and only that, will tell me that the Lord has returned!

.. I think it's wise to question everything..and not believe everything this world puts out...

I'm guessing ( because I'm a futurist) that a self made judgement day is coming...all who deny this future man made messiah will be cast out of his kingdom...we all know what that means... But the end is not yet...

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 962:

I'm done trying to discuss the genre of Revelation with you as you've repeatedly refused to answer the points here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473.../#post62706837

That was post 892 of this thread, the points of which were answered in the latter half of post 915.

Regarding "the genre of Revelation", Revelation itself can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it's not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

. . . your infamously silly "It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed.." paragraph, which makes no sense of the genre and misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal' (which it doesn't), and for for the many reasons I've outlined in our year of conversation and the summary of which is here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473.../#post62719062

That was post 919, which was addressed in post 924.

Also, can you give an example of where you have actually addressed each point in the "Revelation is almost entirely literal" paragraph, and proven from the scriptures themselves that each point is in error, instead of simply dismissing the whole thing as "rubbish", or something like that?

Regarding "misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal'", are you saying that "unsealed" means "symbolic"? If so, how? For wouldn't it make more sense for something unsealed to consist almost entirely of literal statements, rather than mysterious symbols?

eclipsenow said in post 962:

I don't know why you insist on blurting out the obsessively detailed rubbish 'timetables' you indulge in so much . . .

Regarding "detailed", Revelation chapters 6 to 22 themselves contain a huge number of details.

Regarding "rubbish 'timetables'", how has the timetable that has been presented been shown to be rubbish?

eclipsenow said in post 962:

. . . your endless ranting about Android Images of the Antichrist or whatever other rubbish . . .

How has the idea of a single android image of the Antichrist been shown to be rubbish? For the original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) could be referred to in the Greek as being an "eikon" of the Antichrist.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

. . . you cannot cite one scholar that agrees that Revelation should be read literally.

There is no need to, for sufficient reasons why Revelation should be read almost entirely literally have already been given. But how have you shown that even one scholar has proven, based on the scriptures themselves (compare Isaiah 8:20b) and not on any man-made ideas (compare 1 Corinthians 1:20), that Revelation should not be read almost entirely literally?

eclipsenow said in post 962:

If you cannot find credible reasons to read it literally, why would I take anything you say seriously?

How have the reasons given for reading it almost entirely literally been proven to be not credible?

eclipsenow said in post 962:

You think . . . the fact that it promises the return of Jesus tells us what kind of writing it is.

It has not been said that Revelation is almost entirely literal simply because it promises the return of Jesus.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

But your presupposition that it is literal rests on your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events of the future!

Regarding "your presupposition that it is literal", the idea that Revelation is almost entirely literal is not a presupposition, but is based on the fact that Revelation is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (for example, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (for example, Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (for example, Daniel 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

But your presupposition that it is literal rests on your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events of the future!

Regarding "your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events", the idea that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are full of specific events is not a presupposition. For they contain such a huge number of details, which are so varied, so specific, so chronological, and so long, that to reduce all of them to merely a generic description of life at anytime would render them utterly useless. For what person who has ever lived needs a generic description of life? It would be like throwing Revelation chapters 6 to 22 in the trash, just to be done with them.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

But your presupposition that it is literal rests on your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events of the future!

Regarding "your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events", the idea that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are a timetable is not a presupposition. For the verses themselves show that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

But your presupposition that it is literal rests on your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events of the future!

Regarding "your presupposition that it is full of specific timetable events of the future", the idea that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are about future events is not a presupposition. For they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

I read each of these events as symbolic, even the scene of God's throne in heaven. Why do you think it is literal?

There is no scriptural reason for God's throne in heaven not to be literal.

eclipsenow said in post 962:

Step 1: assume it's a timetable of the future because then Revelation becomes exciting, it's all about US!

Regarding "it's all about US!", not necessarily. For any of us could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

eclipsenow said in post 962:

So ignore the earlier 'after this' moments, and CERTAINLY ignore the later ones in Chapter 19 . . .

The "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 is different from the "After this" at the start of Revelation 4:1 and Revelation 19:1 (and at the start of some other chapters), not in the Greek, but in what they are referring to. For the "hereafter" at the end of Revelation 4:1 refers to events that must actually "be", in the sense of actually being performed, sometime in the future, that is, all the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 22; whereas the "After this I looked" at the start of Revelation 4:1 refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had been told what to write in the seven letters in Revelation chapters 2-3. Similarly, "And after these things I heard" (Revelation 19:1) refers to an action already completed by John in the past, after he had seen a vision of the eternal destruction of the symbolic Babylon in Revelation 18, which has not been fulfilled yet.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post 972:

Also, you still have to explain the statements made in the book of Revelation about the imminency of the end.

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent second coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[Bible2]

Frenchfrye said in post 966:

Christ says we wont know the day nor hour.

Mt. 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

 

[Maon]

The imminence and urgency in Revelation would not be there if the the same book was outlining a future timetable of 2000 years later! No! Revelation is demonstrating the urgency and desperation and danger in the times in which we live, these Last Days (since Acts2) in which the Lord really could return any day, because everything that is required was fulfilled on the cross.

This is what futurists would take away from us all!

As I understand, the four horsemen of Revelation are unrestrained and have been unrestrained from the time Christ walked in Judea; and martyrs have been added to the altar in heaven. However, end-time restraint was introduced with the sixth seal and the context tells us why, to seal the saints. Restraint is removed with the second woe.

Further, Christ will return on the day of the Lord, and Paul taught the Thessalonians that the apostasy (departing from the faith ... with failing endurance at the end of the age) and revelation of the man of lawlessness will come first.

Therefore, with pre-tribulation rapture, I see a false treaty, and difficulty with the anytime imminence of Christ's return.