No such thing as free will.

[Keachian]

What's hypothetical about God's omniscience? As long as you are bound by time and space, you will never understand God, but only surmise He decreed all things which shall happen.

The argument as I see it is falling around why is God omniscient, the monergist position is that God is omniscient because he has decreed, the synergist position is that God is omniscient because he has taken in the knowledge somehow. One is Scriptural the other is not.

 

[JackSparrow]

What does this have to do with Calvinism?

In Calvinism, the way one is saved is the same as in Arminianism: belief in Jesus Christ

I don't understand these "In Calvinism, you might not be saved!!" arguments. How will you not be saved? by unbelief? How does that differ from any other soteriology but universalism?

And what do you mean "There's nothing you can do about it"? Yes there is. You can repent and believe the gospel, and if you do, per the Bible's promise, you will find Christ to be a perfect savior.

How can one repent if they are not willing.

AND they are not willing because God predestined or passed over them (your choice ).

Such that they had no possibility of ever becoming willing per God's for-ordaining per Calvinism's rendition of scripture. ?????

And remeber. Man has NO free will - Edwards et all.
God Decrees sin - cygnusx1

 

[JackSparrow]

Such questions severely limit the omniscience of God. He gets no glory from such questions.

Absolutely right.

Why do people forget/ignore the fact that God is outside time.
Why do they shut their eyes to the infinite, eternal things and limit God to the thinking of finite man.

 

[JackSparrow]

let me share this with you and give me your honest Godly opinion...
Question: "Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?"

Answer: Calvinism and Arminianism are two systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the matter of salvation. ....

These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.

Exactly. Both views are MAN's finite interpretation. The BIG mistake by some is to forget that God is NOT finite but INfinite.

So which interpretation is correct Calvinism - Arminianism ?

Answer.

No version of the many conflicting varieties of Calvinism is correct. Hyper vs moderates. Infra/Supra, 4,5,31/2 pointers and so on.

Which version of Arminianism shall we hold as being the bona fida one Jason ?

It is demonstrably correct that some Calvinist here have no idea whatsoever and post drivel on what Arminians apparently believe ( Be clear - SOME - OK).

It is also demonstrably correct that some have no idea what INfinite means.

It is also demonstrably correct that some hold to a circular argument.

1. God decrees all things, including man's sin (e.g cygnusx1).
2. Man has no choice/ability/method to not sin in accordance with God' decree.
3. Man is Totally depraved and totally unable as decreed by God.
4. Man needs to repent.
5. But man is unable to repent. Why ?
6. Because man is unwilling. Why ?
7. Goto step 1.


"These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense."

Exactly. Both views are MAN's finite interpretation. The BIG mistake by some is to forget that God is NOT finite but INfinite.

 

[Arcoe]

The argument as I see it is falling around why is God omniscient, the monergist position is that God is omniscient because he has decreed, the synergist position is that God is omniscient because he has taken in the knowledge somehow. One is Scriptural the other is not.

Prog, this is exactly what I mean. You have God decreeing before His knows what will happen. This is what limits His omniscience. You are saying there was a time God did not know what would happen until He decreed it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Prog, this is exactly what I mean. You have God decreeing before His knows what will happen. This is what limits His omniscience. You are saying there was a time God did not know what would happen until He decreed it.

Why limit God to merely being outside time ?
The decree of God is singular , yet when we attempt to understand Gods decree we think in terms of sequence , naturally when we think of Gods knowledge we also think of a sequence not merely a collective knowing but also an ordered knowing , as in knowing before hand , this foreknowledge is what is dependant upon Gods decree , not His collective knowledge

 

[cygnusx1]

Absolutely right.

Why do people forget/ignore the fact that God is outside time.
Why do they shut their eyes to the infinite, eternal things and limit God to the thinking of finite man.

I don't know why men limit God but they do , especially concerning evil and free will argument which has God limited in desiring , willing many things He cannot have

 

[Keachian]

Prog, this is exactly what I mean. You have God decreeing before His knows what will happen. This is what limits His omniscience. You are saying there was a time God did not know what would happen until He decreed it.

Now I'd think you are limiting God's freedom to do something and this is where my rejection wholesale of lapsarianism will likely come into play in that in God's decree to create I believe there is an implicit decree of both the fallen and saved, Christ's atoning work, the fall and eventually the overlap of ages and the new heaven and earth.

While I wouldn't want to limit God's omniscience in this way, I don't see how God's omniscience occuring outside of his decree to create doesn't limit God's freedom and avoids turning him into an unpersonal and deterministic being that while being confined by his own omniscience, is still being confined, but then I think this travels further into angels dancing on a pin territory than lapsarianism itself and so I will probably bow out at this point if only for the reason that I have other things to be doing that are more edifying to the Church than feeding my own theological gluttony.

 

[Arcoe]

Now I'd think you are limiting God's freedom to do something and this is where my rejection wholesale of lapsarianism will likely come into play in that in God's decree to create I believe there is an implicit decree of both the fallen and saved, Christ's atoning work, the fall and eventually the overlap of ages and the new heaven and earth.

How can I limit God's freedom when God knows everything that has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. Will God' decree change what He knows what will happen in the future? If anything changes within time, it all depends upon man's behavior, but then again, God already knew how man will behave. Stay within time and space, and this will confuse you immensely.

While I wouldn't want to limit God's omniscience in this way, I don't see how God's omniscience occuring outside of his decree to create doesn't limit God's freedom and avoids turning him into an unpersonal and deterministic being that while being confined by his own omniscience, is still being confined, but then I think this travels further into angels dancing on a pin territory than lapsarianism itself and so I will probably bow out at this point if only for the reason that I have other things to be doing that are more edifying to the Church than feeding my own theological gluttony.

How does His omniscience confine Him? You may bow out if freely choose. Another thing, I have no idea what this lapsarianism is. Is this idea man-made, or can I find it within the pages of the Bible?

 

[Hammster]

If God knew everything that has already happened in the future, why did He have to decree it to happen? Was His omniscience lacking? Was He unsure of His omniscience?

There is no primary or secondary when one lifts his mind above time and space. Everything is present before God. As long as man keeps his mind within time and space, he will never understand God's omniscience. He thinks God decrees in time and space, operates in time and space. Since there is no beginning with God, He cannot decree before the foundation of the world, for there is no 'before' with Him.

Are you saying that there is no need for a decree or plan because God knew/knows everything that will happen?

 

[elman]

=cygnusx1;62502975]More faulty conclusions based upon erroneous presuppositions , God sending out lying spirits doesn't make God a liar anymore than the president of the USA sending out troupes makes him a killer !

That is a falulty conclusion. If God sends lying spirits from His throne to lie for him, that is God lying and it makes God a liar. There is no avoiding that.

You do realise scripture does say God sends out lying Spirits and sends a delusion upon some men ?

I also realize that the Bible says God will not lie. Both cannot be true. One is false. I chose the one that says God is a liar as the false statement.

Also who said you didn't have control over your own evil ?

You do if you say God is in control of it.

A ball falls under the law of gravity , it is also true that it falls because someone greater than a ball let it go !

Explain how that makes me in control of what God is controlling.

If God let you fall you would see just exactly what you are capable of .... Look at Germany WWII .

God allows us to sin. God does not make us sin. God did not cause Hitler and Germany to kill all those Jews.

 

[elman]

Then my previous comment stands.

Nothing in my post implies I am more important than God.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing in my post implies I am more important than God.

Not what I said.

 

[cygnusx1]

That is a falulty conclusion. If God sends lying spirits from His throne to lie for him, that is God lying and it makes God a liar. There is no avoiding that.

no it isn't . what are you doing with scripture ? placing yourself and your deductions above it ?

1 Kings 22:22

New International Version (©1984)
"'By what means?' the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

New Living Translation (©2007)

"'How will you do this?' the LORD asked. "And the spirit replied, 'I will go out and inspire all of Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' "'You will succeed,' said the LORD. 'Go ahead and do it.'


English Standard Version (©2001)
And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’



New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'


Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
The LORD asked him, 'How?'" He said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.'" Then He said, 'You will certainly entice him and prevail. Go and do that.'"



International Standard Version (©2012)
"And the LORD asked him, 'How?' "'I will go,' he announced, 'and I will be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets!' "So the LORD said, 'You're just the one to deceive him. You will be successful. Go and do it.'


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

God allows us to sin. God does not make us sin. God did not cause Hitler and Germany to kill all those Jews.

quote where I have ever said God made you sin , you will not because you cannot .

permission is an act of the will .


2 Chronicles 18:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

 

[JackSparrow]

..... I have no idea what this lapsarianism is. Is this idea man-made, or can I find it within the pages of the Bible?

It is man made Arcoe.

This relates to when God did his are predestinating.

Supralapsarian. A doctrine held by SOME Calvinists including John Calvin at times ( John did change his mid a bit).

When God did his predestining of who would be saved and who would be damned hid did it BEFORE the fall. The significance is that even the fall was predestined event. A corollary is that God is in fact the author of sin.

However this meat is too strong for many Calvinists and so infralapsarianism was invented. This has God predestining the saved and dammed AFTER the fall. This gets God of the hook from being the author of sin. I.E Adam and Eve having free will.


Calvinists are split between supre - pre fall and infra - post fall.

Calvinists are also split between single and double predestination. This relates to who are predestinated, not when God did it.

Double predestination. Expounded by John Calvin in his institutes that God actively determines who the dammed are and who the elect are.

Single predestination - Also expounded by John Calvin in his institutes - strange but true. This doctrine says that God passes over most of humanity and elected a few to salvation. It does not alter the fact that those supposedly passed over have no options available to repent because they are totally depraved. Bit like a rat trap.

None of this is in Genesis.

Hope this helps.


It would be good if our Orthodox brothers would expound there teaching on predestination in general. E.g when where and for whom.

 

[Skala]

The above post is hilarious.

Thanks for that good chuckle!

 

[JackSparrow]

I don't know why men limit God but they do , especially concerning evil and free will argument which has God limited in desiring , willing many things He cannot have

And this gem

Why limit God to merely being outside time ?

Thinks. Is cx1's continual misunderstand just bait ?

.

 

[cygnusx1]

The above post is hilarious.

Thanks for that good chuckle!

. And he asks if my post is bait !!!

"Now hold still while I take splinter from your eye , where is your eye" ?

 

[JackSparrow]

. And he asks if my post is bait !!!

"Now hold still while I take splinter from your eye , where is your eye" ?

Yes thats right. I said 'just'

Actually I was thinking your continual misunderstandings were due to some thing else entirely.

I was being polite.

 

[JackSparrow]

The above post is hilarious.

Thanks for that good chuckle!

Come on then Skala.

Infra/supra ? single/double. ? Hit it big time. Put us all right on this.





Please

Being a Calvinist you do understand all this. Right !