No such thing as free will.

[cygnusx1]

My head is spinning...

LOL !!!!

 

[elman]

So, while monergism claims that God is both a necessary and sufficient condition for our salvation, synergism will agree that God is a necessary condition, but will deny His sufficiency. !

Not correct. We deny God is evil and creates people unable to effect their destiny and then punishes them for eternity because they did not do what God had created them unable to do. We do not deny God's sufficiency. We deny God acts arbitrarily and randomly. We chose to accept the teaching of Jesus and much of the Bible that God rewards loving actions. This is not believing we can save ourselves or earn and deserve eternal life. It is believing that like the prodigal son we can effect our being accepted as a son by our father when we do not deserve that, by leaving the pig pen and going home.

 

[elman]

Old Testament people of God had a clearer understanding of Gods sovereignty over human wills than many current Christians do

Isaiah 63:17


New International Version (©1984)

Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.


The Lord is behind all things

Ezekiel 20:26 I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'

You did not quote Ezekiel 18. Try that passage. Who is turning to wickedness and who is turning to righteousness and Does God in that passage indicate His wish that all would turn to righteousness and none would die?

 

[elman]

Yes... I have had these VERY same thoughts. The Lord showed Isaiah and many of the prophets, including King David, His sovereignty over the human heart. These scriptures show without a doubt that God channels the human heart where He WILLS. I haved used the above-scripture from Isaiah many times and yet it gets argued with and avoided!

Isaiah understood, by God's grace, that if we wander, stumble or don't fear God as we should, that He has decreed it for a purpose for His own glory. And since He caues all things to work together for good for those who are His, then even when He hardens our hearts or decrees that we stumble, He is still working it out for our good and His glory!

If your view is correct God is evil and we are not. There is no glory for God in my choosing evil or in God forcing me to chose evil. Jesus said God is good. This means God is not evil. I will go with the view of Jesus.

 

[elman]

I consider real freedom to be free from sin so that sin is an impossibility.

But some on these forums beleive true freedom is defined as the possibility to sin

Therefore, according to their definition, only sinful, non-glorified humans are truly free. Even God himself, nor the saints in heaven are free, according to their definition.

In this life sin--being unloving--- is always a possibility. There is no freedom from that this side of the grave. God is free from sin, free from being unloving because that is what God chooses to be--This is the glory of God--not God being the cause of my being unloving. God is not glorified by my bad choices.

 

[cygnusx1]

You did not quote Ezekiel 18. Try that passage. Who is turning to wickedness and who is turning to righteousness and Does God in that passage indicate His wish that all would turn to righteousness and none would die?

I didn't quote a whole host of passages , Ez 18 isn't a problem

But it's not relevant to my point

God is not evil neither is He the true author of sin , neither does He tempt any man . From that it does not follow that God ordains all that comes to pass or that God controls sinners

Try Calvin on Ezekiel , he's very good !

 

[elman]

Either the Cross was plan A (God would, by necessity need man to sin so that He could be must glorified on the Cross), or plan B (God would hope that man would sin).

God never hoped man would sin. Sin by definition is contrary to the will of God. God never made it necessary for man to sin. That is a product of man's overactive imagination. Neither are true.

 

[elman]

I didn't quote a whole host of passages , Ez 18 isn't a problem

But it's not relevant to my point

God is not evil neither is He the true author of sin , neither does He tempt any man . From that it does not follow that God ordains all that comes to pass or that God controls sinners

Try Calvin on Ezekiel , he's very good !

No Calvin is not good nor is he very good. Ezekiel 18 is not a problem if you ignore it, but if you read it and assume it is spiritual truth it is exactly on point and very much a problem for your theology of God being the cause of our doing evil things. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say God controls our being evil and then say on the other hand God is not evil. If God does evil, God is evil. If God is in control and nothing exists that was not created by God, then God created evil and is the author of sin. If that is true then it is not true that God is good, nor is it true that God is love.

 

[Hammster]

God never hoped man would sin. Sin by definition is contrary to the will of God. God never made it necessary for man to sin. That is a product of man's overactive imagination. Neither are true.

So then you don't see the cross as God's plan A?

 

[elman]

So then you don't see the cross as God's plan A?

No. I see God's plan A as man becoming a loving being and more in God's image than he is now.

 

[Hammster]

No. I see God's plan A as man becoming a loving being and more in God's image than he is now.

Yeah, man is always more important than God's glory.

 

[cygnusx1]

No Calvin is not good nor is he very good. Ezekiel 18 is not a problem if you ignore it, but if you read it and assume it is spiritual truth it is exactly on point and very much a problem for your theology of God being the cause of our doing evil things. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say God controls our being evil and then say on the other hand God is not evil. If God does evil, God is evil. If God is in control and nothing exists that was not created by God, then God created evil and is the author of sin. If that is true then it is not true that God is good, nor is it true that God is love.

I dispute your conclusions , I think you are wrong on just about every point including CALVIN on Ez 18


God is not the author of sin because He doesn't do the sinning .

I don't ignore any scripture certainly not Ez

I can say and I do say God controls every evil without being evil .

For a start you have to realise the context of sin is Law , Divine Law , but God is not subject to the Law so it is impossible for Him to sin even when He sends out lying Spirits to deceive men .

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvin on Ezekiel 18

"And this is the knowledge of salvation, to embrace his mercy which he offers us in Christ. It follows, then, that what the Prophet now says is very true, that God wills not the death of a sinner, because he meets him of his own accord, and is not only prepared to receive all who fly to his pity, but he calls them towards him with a loud voice, when he sees how they are alienated from all hope of safety. But the manner must be noticed in which God wishes all to be saved, namely, when they turn themselves from their ways. God thus does not so wish all men to be saved as to renounce the difference between good and evil; but repentance, as we have said, must precede pardon. How, then, does God wish all men to be saved? By the Spirit’s condemning the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment at this day, by the Gospel, as he did formerly by the law and the prophets. (John 16:8.) God makes manifest to mankind their great misery, that they may betake themselves to him: he wounds that he may cure, and slays that he may give life. We hold, then, that; God wills not the death of a sinner, since he calls all equally to repentance, and promises himself prepared to receive them if they only seriously repent. If any one should object–then there is no election of God, by which he has predestinated a fixed number to salvation, the answer is at hand: the Prophet does not here speak of God’s secret counsel, but only recalls miserable men from despair, that they may apprehend the hope of pardon, and repent and embrace the offered salvation. If any one again objects–this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God’s will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish. While we look now through a glass darkly, we should be content with the measure of our own intelligence"

 

[elman]

Yeah, man is always more important than God's glory.

Not what I said. Nor did I imply that.

 

[elman]

Calvin on Ezekiel 18

"And this is the knowledge of salvation, to embrace his mercy which he offers us in Christ. It follows, then, that what the Prophet now says is very true, that God wills not the death of a sinner, because he meets him of his own accord, and is not only prepared to receive all who fly to his pity, but he calls them towards him with a loud voice, when he sees how they are alienated from all hope of safety. But the manner must be noticed in which God wishes all to be saved, namely, when they turn themselves from their ways. God thus does not so wish all men to be saved as to renounce the difference between good and evil; but repentance, as we have said, must precede pardon. How, then, does God wish all men to be saved? By the Spirit’s condemning the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment at this day, by the Gospel, as he did formerly by the law and the prophets. (John 16:8.) God makes manifest to mankind their great misery, that they may betake themselves to him: he wounds that he may cure, and slays that he may give life. We hold, then, that; God wills not the death of a sinner, since he calls all equally to repentance, and promises himself prepared to receive them if they only seriously repent. If any one should object–then there is no election of God, by which he has predestinated a fixed number to salvation, the answer is at hand: the Prophet does not here speak of God’s secret counsel, but only recalls miserable men from despair, that they may apprehend the hope of pardon, and repent and embrace the offered salvation. If any one again objects–this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God’s will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish. While we look now through a glass darkly, we should be content with the measure of our own intelligence"

Most of that I agree with. I certainly agree with: "the manner must be noticed in which God wishes all to be saved, namely, when they turn themselves from their ways. God thus does not so wish all men to be saved as to renounce the difference between good and evil; but repentance, as we have said, must precede pardon."
I do not agree with:"he wounds that he may cure, and slays that he may give life." I do not see Ezekiel saying that at all.

 

[Hammster]

Not what I said. Nor did I imply that.

If the Cross, which bright God the most glory, is secondary to what you think is important, then I just have a logical conclusion.

 

[elman]

I dispute your conclusions , I think you are wrong on just about every point including CALVIN on Ez 18


God is not the author of sin because He doesn't do the sinning .

I don't ignore any scripture certainly not Ez

I can say and I do say God controls every evil without being evil .

For a start you have to realise the context of sin is Law , Divine Law , but God is not subject to the Law so it is impossible for Him to sin even when He sends out lying Spirits to deceive men .

If God controls my being evil and I have no control, why am I evil and God is not? I agree God does not lie. Therefore it is not true that God sends lying spirits to deceive. If He did God would be lying. God is good not because of His power but because God can be unloving and chooses to not be. Sin is about the law of love. Failure to love is sin. Calvin said what he said and now you want to distance yourself from that?

 

[elman]

If the Cross, which bright God the most glory, is secondary to what you think is important, then I just have a logical conclusion.

I do not agree the cross brings God the most glory. God does not need glory. He already has it. God created us for a purpose. Trying to understand and achieve that purpose brings glory to God. It is not about thinking we are more important than God nor is that a logical conclusion. I see no glory for God at all in making God responsible for our evil. To me that detracts from His glory.

 

[cygnusx1]

If God controls my being evil and I have no control, why am I evil and God is not? I agree God does not lie. Therefore it is not true that God sends lying spirits to deceive. If He did God would be lying. God is good not because of His power but because God can be unloving and chooses to not be. Sin is about the law of love. Failure to love is sin. Calvin said what he said and now you want to distance yourself from that?

More faulty conclusions based upon erroneous presuppositions , God sending out lying spirits doesn't make God a liar anymore than the president of the USA sending out troupes makes him a killer !

You do realise scripture does say God sends out lying Spirits and sends a delusion upon some men ?

Also who said you didn't have control over your own evil ?

A ball falls under the law of gravity , it is also true that it falls because someone greater than a ball let it go !

If God let you fall you would see just exactly what you are capable of .... Look at Germany WWII .

 

[Hammster]

I do not agree the cross brings God the most glory. God does not need glory. He already has it. God created us for a purpose. Trying to understand and achieve that purpose brings glory to God. It is not about thinking we are more important than God nor is that a logical conclusion. I see no glory for God at all in making God responsible for our evil. To me that detracts from His glory.

Then my previous comment stands.