DO We Have Free Will?

[Arcoe]

Well you are shining up rather well.

For purposes of this thread you understand then there is a struggle of wills internally. I will answer YES for you and not waste our time.

No, I do not believe I have two wills within me. Sorry. A struggle, yes. I have my own will, and therefrom, choose as I wish. My will does not, and will not allow a foreign, evil being to make choices for me. I will make those choices of myself, thank you.

I would also observe on matters of FLEEING when any believer recognizes the 'struggle' is both internal and with an entity that IS NOT THEM but the worst vile evil on the face of the planet they have in fact INTERNALLY DIVIDED from that working at least by recognition of that fact and being TRUTHFUL about what is going on internally.

Flee can encompass many shades of understanding, one of which is to escape from danger.

Your first paragraph makes no sense at all; maybe you should rephrase it. Also, I am not the one fleeing; the devil flees to escape danger through the resistance of the believer.

I might suggest that being taken slave by lying about the fact of the internal struggle being with an entity(s) that is not us or being blinded to that fact is a form of CAPTIVITY/SLAVERY or worse yet, not speaking truthfully about it makes us lying pawns.

Let's see, Satan is the accuser of believers, so, by what authority do you accuse me of lying? Is it the 'other' will from which you live? It seems you can't resist the devil to have him flee, so, have you been 'ordained' to do the devil's bidding for him?

You need to quit your preoccupation with the devil. Have you not read Jesus sets one free, and man is a slave only to the one he obeys?

so, congrats for arriving at an honest conclusion.

and thanks for being honest with me in the exchange.

How does one be honest when he is captive to the devil's will, as you seem to think you are?

I don't consider any man free who doesn't see or understand the battle, the enemy or where it transpires.

Those who do see those facts I would at least consider substantially free-ER for being honest. The Spirit has brought them honesty within.

s

Who said I don't understand the battle? I said I don't have Satan's will living within me, having residence along with mine. Do you have anything of substance you wish to relate?

 

[squint]

No, I do not believe I have two wills within me.

too bad a person is prone to get wound up in logical fallacies.

oh well. Nobody ever said God only works with only the believer therein when there is another to be against.

s

 

[AllanV]

Experiencing God's Love which is beyond comprehension and Knowing God and this is His request.

Man's deeper consciousness wills through self belief to Know good and evil, either inadvertently or purposely. Immortality is hidden and cannot be imagined from a biological form. God clothed man (Adam and Eve) in animal skins and they are the genetic line.

The natural mind using the will through own belief De-energizes and the forces of oxidizing and decay work on the body to break it down. There are mutations and cellular breakdown. Everyone uses God's power through the corruption of imperfection to bring in each others demise. Even inventions and devices are built with the questionable motives compromising existence.
Mind power is used to bond with each other to force emotional responses that require a hardness to compete with.

Stumbling blocks (idols, opinions) are thrown before others, fixtures of the mind, mind sets (demons) tempt and prompt people to act out. The energy in the voice empowered by the will, prompted by demons is behind the words to work on another persons emotions for a response. This energy comes from within and off the heart and as the Lord said defiles the person.

The way to know God is to talk from a pure mind and heart. But the perfect nature of Jesus must be found and the same anointing.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Faith energizes the word especially when received by a believer.

Be washed by the Word. The mind sets with attachments in own mind must be confronted and expelled, a frightening occurrence. It is like getting rid of own mind entirely. The person that is thought to be you is encumbered and a captive to play out in an enslaved manner from within the deeper consciousness.

Only then can the will be used to present a sacrifice of the whole body. The Love of God will enter and God will indwell powerfully. It becomes apparent the perfect nature of Jesus covers own imperfection and the anointing is very powerful.

It is a mind bending transformation that ends in a renewal in the mind. The love experienced, God's Love, overflows and is carried out in the voice with perfection.
The sacrifice of Jesus allows entry into the holy place, the sanctuary of God.
Following the commandments will not get a person there it is entirely an act of faith, that is believing in the heart and confessing talking out in that belief. God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

An individual and collectively the way of holiness must be learned as an ever deepening experience until being completely pure. The nature of Jesus must be found.
It is necessary to learn how to believe and speak to the required depth.

The difficulty is maintaining this Perfect and Holy state. All own endeavors in fact own life must be given up to remain.

 

[Arcoe]

too bad a person is prone to get wound up in logical fallacies.

oh well. Nobody ever said God only works with only the believer therein when there is another to be against.

s

As I asked before, do you have anything of substance you would like to relate?

 

[squint]

As I asked before, do you have anything of substance you would like to relate?

Nah, was pretty much done with you after one or two posts, but it was interesting to see you follow along to agreement, then deny your own statements.

very entertaining.

so again, thx.

 

[bling]

In our discussion of God calling Adam just very good and not perfect I said:

It is not because of God’s use of grammar that Adam is not perfect. Christ was and is perfect, but Christ was not made.

Actually, I thought I did. Bling, I have no problem with what you say about Godly-type love; there's truth in what you say. There's also truth in what Elman presents in his Ezek. 18 especially reporting, and what Squint says about the impact of the devil in our lives, and so on. My problem is that you folks seem to build your whole doctrine on a favourite portion or issue of Scripture to the neglect, it appears, of the whole. You've probably heard of the four blind Hindus who were asked to describe the elephant they were first introduced to: one held the trunk, another the tusk, a third the tail, and the fourth the foot. I won't go into it but you can well imagine how different a description of the elephant each one gave, yet there was an element of truth in all they presented. Such is the case here I believe.

We are, as Christians, called to emulate this Godly-type love. But you know we cannot do this in the same way God can. You say the only thing Adam lacked that would make him "like God Himself" is this love. If he could love like God he would be God, don't you see? You're not advocating the Latter Day Saint belief that "what man is, God was, and what God is, man can become", are you? Man, redeemed man, in glory even, will not be "equal with God"...God will always be our God...that's why we'll all cast our crowns before Him. Only of Christ could it be said, "who thought it not robbery to be equal with God". That never was nor never will be man's domain. Hence, though called on to emulate our Saviour who loves us 'infinitely', we can only rise to a 'finite' love for we are that, and that only [until we put on immortality].

Being like God is not the same as being a god. This Godly Love is what motivates God to do all He does, so since Love controls what God does it is actually more powerful than God, but then God is Love. The rest of God’s attributes are secondary to His Love. Our Love will never be as great as God’s Love, but that also means God will always Love us more than we Love Him, so who comes out ahead in that arrangement?

I never wanted my parents to have a swimming pool because it was too much work, but I wanted my best friend to have a pool. With God it is similar, He wants to give and share everything with us, so is that not better than having to care for everything?

Am I mistaking your intent about Godly type love?

To conclude, Adam was perfect when he came from God's hand. There was no mar or flaw and he wasn't lacking anything...love is something that cannot be 'placed' inside a person like an artificial heart...love is a response that grows there, essentially, a response to Love itself. But the ground has to be tilled...we are a hard-hearted and a stiff-necked people, at best.

I do not see how Adam could have any Godly type Love instinctively, since that Love would be a robotic type Love (programmed into Adam and Eve). This is the huge difference between Christ the human and Adam the human in that Christ did have Godly type Love from the “beginning”, since He always existed and did not have a beginning.

I would go further in that I see the only reason for making man and placing man on earth was so man could obtain Godly type Love. The making of man is a huge sacrifice for God since man will sin, satan has to roam around, tragedies of all kind will have to occur, some people will wind up going to hell and Christ will have to come to earth to be tortured, humiliated and murdered. This all is to God’s glory showing the unselfish sacrificial Love of God.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Being like God is not the same as being a god. This Godly Love is what motivates God to do all He does, so since Love controls what God does it is actually more powerful than God, but then God is Love. The rest of God’s attributes are secondary to His Love.

Bling, you speak of Godly Love as a separate thing from God Himself. It's what He is; not what controls Him. You speak of Love as a Force above and beyond God Himself which, if it could be true, would relegate God to something other than 'God'..."May the force be with you"...sound familiar?

And as to His other attributes being secondary, I don't think so. God is Light also and this attribute is put before God is Love because there are foolhardy creatures who would think that if God is only Infinite Love then He can't possibly bring me into judgment. No, unless we come to the Light first, we will never behold His love. "Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow". Foundations first.

I do not see how Adam could have any Godly type Love instinctively, since that Love would be a robotic type Love (programmed into Adam and Eve).

Love cannot be "programmed into" anybody. The wild asses colt obeyed the Master but it didn't 'love' Him. We would be no different if "programmed" to obey.

I would go further in that I see the only reason for making man and placing man on earth was so man could obtain Godly type Love.

I would say that the main reason for making man and placing man on earth was so man could "receive" Godly type love. And, as a result of receiving it, would love in return, though being finite creatures we could only emulate that love, not become dispensers of it...because it is divine...and we are not.

 

[Skala]

Is it God's will for me to sin?
Do I sin.

I'm looking for Scripture., but more than that, I'm looking for the Scripture
to be "rightly divided" as well.


I do sometimes sin, much as I hate to, much as it makes me sad.
It makes me sad because I don't believe my Father is blessed or glorified when I sin...

First you must define free will before anyone can answer that.

There are many understandings of free will, thus, you will get either "yes" or "no" answers to your question, which ultimately isn't helpful.

 

[bling]

Bling, you speak of Godly Love as a separate thing from God Himself. It's what He is; not what controls Him. You speak of Love as a Force above and beyond God Himself which, if it could be true, would relegate God to something other than 'God'..."May the force be with you"...sound familiar?

God is Love, so God is that “Force” among other things. God is forcing Himself to do what God does.

And as to His other attributes being secondary, I don't think so. God is Light also and this attribute is put before God is Love because there are foolhardy creatures who would think that if God is only Infinite Love then He can't possibly bring me into judgment. No, unless we come to the Light first, we will never behold His love. "Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet they shall be as white as snow". Foundations first.

You can talk about the other attributes of God like just, fair, light, etc., but what motivates God’s actions? God is not like the sun, machine, computer or energy, but is controlled thought with infinite energy and knowledge.

Just because God is infinitely Loving, does not mean some people will not go to hell and eventually be annihilated. Mature adults here on earth that repeatedly refuse God’s help (charity/Love) to the point they will never accept it (God only can know this point), will not be forced beyond their will to go to heaven, where there is only Godly type Love and one huge Love feast. Now it is unfortunate these people will have to go to hell, but that is to help others make the choice of accepting God’s help, so it is out of God’s Love and willingness to do almost anything to help willing humans that unwilling humans (whom God also Loves) go to hell.

Love cannot be "programmed into" anybody. The wild asses colt obeyed the Master but it didn't 'love' Him. We would be no different if "programmed" to obey.





I would say that the main reason for making man and placing man on earth was so man could "receive" Godly type love. And, as a result of receiving it, would love in return, though being finite creatures we could only emulate that love, not become dispensers of it...because it is divine...and we are not.

I fully agree with: “the main reason for making man and placing man on earth was so man could "receive" Godly type love.” But the question is can some humans refuse God’s Love and thus not receive it or does God force his Love on humans like some “shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun”?

Do humans like to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity?

Have you said to your children: “take a little pride in what you are doing, don’t depend on others, be self-reliant, you need to take care of yourself, you need to start making your own choices, etc.” ?

How do we view people that are always asking for charity?

If we live long enough this world is a humbling experience and we can see God doing what he can to help those willing to accept His help.

 

[jasonsloss]

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

 

[AllanV]

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Satan's deception is within the rebellious nature as he magnifies and projects the personality as seen by others. Satan's power is to stand in the place of God in the mind. Satan magnified himself against God and now he magnifies the self as being important as opposed to someone else in self belief. There fore the person will believe in own self instead of believing in God. It is a condition of the mind.
Be transformed by the renewing of the mind. Purify the self.
There is a method and it is described in scriptures exactly but Satan will not let it be understood as he stands in the mind. The method must be taken up and gradually Satan and his demons are exposed. Once expelled and the power is now available through the Sacrifice of Jesus the way is open for God to indwell in the nature of Jesus.
I am a witness to this and it is within me and this is true.
It is own self with attachments that encumber and obscure any way to escape and understand.

 

[jasonsloss]

Satan's deception is within the rebellious nature as he magnifies and projects the personality as seen by others. Satan's power is to stand in the place of God in the mind. Satan magnified himself against God and now he magnifies the self as being important as opposed to someone else in self belief. There fore the person will believe in own self instead of believing in God. It is a condition of the mind.
Be transformed by the renewing of the mind. Purify the self.
There is a method and it is described in scriptures exactly but Satan will not let it be understood as he stands in the mind. The method must be taken up and gradually Satan and his demons are exposed. Once expelled and the power is now available through the Sacrifice of Jesus the way is open for God to indwell in the nature of Jesus.
I am a witness to this and it is within me and this is true.
It is own self with attachments that encumber and obscure any way to escape and understand.

I am not sure I am understanding what you have said, but in any case I would like to point out that yes some of us have had a stronger battle to come to Christ then others but Satan's greatest deception is for us to put all the blame on him when it is really our own fault and sin that has deceived us...

 

[bling]

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

I can agree with you for the most part up to: "But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them."

The prodigal son came to his senses (there is no outside influence of the Father causing this) and He chooses to give up his self-reliance that is leading to a cruel death by starvation and “trust” in a merciful father (mercy he totally does not deserve). Going home asking for a job he does not deserve and not staying in the pigsty starving to death (the punishment he fully deserves and earned) is not “choosing good”, but motivated by the selfish desire to have a life.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Question: "Do human beings truly have a free will?"

Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Very good Jason. I think your answer spot on...all may come, none will come because of that sin nature, but "the grace and power of God" has the ability to 'persuade', for want of a better term, some to come by breaking down one's resistant will.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

The prodigal son came to his senses (there is no outside influence of the Father causing this) and He chooses to give up his self-reliance that is leading to a cruel death by starvation and “trust” in a merciful father (mercy he totally does not deserve). Going home asking for a job he does not deserve and not staying in the pigsty starving to death (the punishment he fully deserves and earned) is not “choosing good”, but motivated by the selfish desire to have a life.

Though this story is much used as a gospel message to the lost, and I have no problem with it being so used, the story itself best describes two sons, both of whom get away from the Father. In other words, they are already sons of the Father when the story commences, whereas the true gospel is brought forth to turn men into sons. So these two better speak of 'Christians' who get away from their Lord, the one more obvious than the other but truly both are at a distance...yet only the one comes to realize it.

The "Spirit" is unseen in the story, true, but nevertheless I believe we can see by the eye of faith the Spirit at work in bringing the younger son to his senses, and then using his return to reveal the vacuum that existed in the elder son's heart. The elder son never left in body, but he had in heart.

 

[pshun2404]

Genesis 1:28 “And God blessed them, and God said unto them…have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”

Psalm 8:4-6 “What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; You have put all things under his feet"

In Hebrews 2:8 the writer declares, “But now we see that all things are yet not under him”

When sin entered the world man lost his promised dominion (gave it over to Satan) …so that now Satan is the god of this world (1 Corinthians 4:4) so real is his acquired lordship that when tempting Christ (who is very God Himself) he offers him the kingdoms of this world in exchange for Christ bowing down and worshipping him. But praise God He had another way.

God therefore gave mankind “dominion” (radar – to dominate, rule, subjugate). This is part of God’s very first blessing given to man. God meant that on earth man should rule. Man was the one who would make the decisions, and control, and subdue, and care for and dress the garden, etc.

Mankind HAD TO HAVE free-will to be able to have dominion. This is in fact what made it possible for man to fall. He was not created or foreordained (as in made to) to lose this wonderful gift he lost it by his own free-will. God foreknew (not caused) that he would and so since the beginning Christ was plan A and not the contingency (plan B). For because God IS just, having given control of the earth to man, He would not simply take it back. It was man’s to do with as he willed. So now, Satan has legal dominion within God’s will (but not because God preferred this, or caused this, though He foreknew it would happen). So when the blessing came, foreknowing the transaction that would take place, the solution was already in place (Christ). In the eternal all is as if it has all transpired but in the temporal it is all playing out in linear temporal time (subject to chronos). The solution (in the eternal) preceded the problem (in the temporal) but it was by man’s will that man chose to disobey (that is Adam, because Eve was beguiled, persuaded, convinced). God cannot be blamed, and Adam is thus responsible for his sin and for the consequence of that act which brought death upon all men (death being the consequence of being a god unto oneself – Genesis 3:5 – and not a punishment). All men through procreation inherit this death because all have sinned (not that they were born condemned but that they all will to sin and do sin because their nature has been corrupted) and each one is responsible and deemed guilty because of their own sin. The soul that sins it must die. God is clear in the law and the prophets that He does not hold the children responsible for the sins of the fathers, nor the fathers for the sins of their children.

Think on these things…

Paul

 

[AllanV]

The prodigal son came to his senses (there is no outside influence of the Father causing this) and He chooses to give up his self-reliance that is leading to a cruel death by starvation and “trust” in a merciful father (mercy he totally does not deserve). Going home asking for a job he does not deserve and not staying in the pigsty starving to death (the punishment he fully deserves and earned) is not “choosing good”, but motivated by the selfish desire to have a life. [/size]

The pig sty is self life and everyone is starved of the hidden manna. In self reliance everyone is subject to sin and Satan who brings death, sickness, deformities and all personalities.
With out any outside influence an individual strives to enter and the will is used to extricate and thrust away the last vestiges of the old nature traits.
It is a battle in the mind. Just as Peter was caught when he attempted to walk on water the nature of Jesus catches the mind at its most vulnerable.
Entry into the Kingdom is when God indwells powerfully. The Love of Jesus and of God reside within.
It is then that one is fully prepared to do good works, in the power of God, and not of Self.

 

[AllanV]

I am not sure I am understanding what you have said, but in any case I would like to point out that yes some of us have had a stronger battle to come to Christ then others but Satan's greatest deception is for us to put all the blame on him when it is really our own fault and sin that has deceived us...

Derek Prince has passed away now but he related how most Christians are not complete. If the cross is a bridge then they are still on the bridge and have not crossed over. He had a series called the "fullness of the cross". It was a very intelligently constructed series that went through the scriptures and showed the meanings of what was being related. I am not sure if he realized the true depth of what he was saying. But for three weeks I followed it on a radio program day by day during a fast. He was the only preacher that didn't tear at my heart because I became very sensitive and vulnerable. After expelling "demons" in the name of Jesus Christ the next night I broke inwardly to a depth that would usually be unattainable. My will was used and the mind emptied out of all the encumbering usual personality traits. I was not left in limbo, hanging there, the nature of Jesus covered mine and the Love of God was indwelling powerfully. This is indescribable and many interesting things occurred.

I made a bad mistake because there were some engineering reports to finish and with the comprehension required the mind shifted back to the old nature. It took several months to become comfortable with my self again and this made me unwell. It is apparent that to walk as Jesus did everything of the old life must be given up entirely. The Holy Spirit still works strongly in me to varying degrees but there is no one known that is willing to believe to the depth required for this indwelling of God. I become an instant threat instead.

The Churches have the wrong doctrine because can you say that you are complete in Christ. The words "complete in Christ" can be used to mean two different things. One could walk as Jesus with the same anointing because that is what Christ means anointed one. Or using personal self belief just say you are complete in Christ through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross and never cross over.

 

[jasonsloss]

I can agree with you for the most part up to: "But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them."

The prodigal son came to his senses (there is no outside influence of the Father causing this) and He chooses to give up his self-reliance that is leading to a cruel death by starvation and “trust” in a merciful father (mercy he totally does not deserve). Going home asking for a job he does not deserve and not staying in the pigsty starving to death (the punishment he fully deserves and earned) is not “choosing good”, but motivated by the selfish desire to have a life.

the prodigal son oh what an interesting parable love it to see how faithful our Father in heaven is... now there are so many different understandings of this parable that this would be hard press to debate, but i have always understood it based on who Jesus was talking to (i.e. Jews)... now I am not saying that there is no application to us but what I will say is that the son in this parable has known the Father (i.e. son=Israel; Father =God)... so with that from a Christian stand point we as children of God when we have our little spats of rebellion because we do not like what our Father in Heaven is doing with our lives we can trust that He is faithful to always be there...

 

[jasonsloss]

Derek Prince has passed away now but he related how most Christians are not complete. If the cross is a bridge then they are still on the bridge and have not crossed over. He had a series called the "fullness of the cross". It was a very intelligently constructed series that went through the scriptures and showed the meanings of what was being related. I am not sure if he realized the true depth of what he was saying. But for three weeks I followed it on a radio program day by day during a fast. He was the only preacher that didn't tear at my heart because I became very sensitive and vulnerable. After expelling "demons" in the name of Jesus Christ the next night I broke inwardly to a depth that would usually be unattainable. My will was used and the mind emptied out of all the encumbering usual personality traits. I was not left in limbo, hanging there, the nature of Jesus covered mine and the Love of God was indwelling powerfully. This is indescribable and many interesting things occurred.

I made a bad mistake because there were some engineering reports to finish and with the comprehension required the mind shifted back to the old nature. It took several months to become comfortable with my self again and this made me unwell. It is apparent that to walk as Jesus did everything of the old life must be given up entirely. The Holy Spirit still works strongly in me to varying degrees but there is no one known that is willing to believe to the depth required for this indwelling of God. I become an instant threat instead.

The Churches have the wrong doctrine because can you say that you are complete in Christ. The words "complete in Christ" can be used to mean two different things. One could walk as Jesus with the same anointing because that is what Christ means anointed one. Or using personal self belief just say you are complete in Christ through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross and never cross over.

read what you said and am not sure what your point really is but as to the last part of what you said no one can be Christ, but we are commanded to be imitators, as well as we are commanded to walk as He walked...
1 Thessalonians 2:12 KJV
That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory

Colossians 2:6 KJV
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Ephesians 5:8 KJV
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light

Ephesians 2:10 KJV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Ephesians 5:1 NKJV
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children

1 John 2:6 NKJV
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

now ones who just talk the talk but don't walk the walk well Jesus did say you will know them by their fruits...
there is one other thing the cross is where we came for salvation, and now that you have salvation isn't it time to move on to the things that pertain to the coming Kingdom of God???