DO We Have Free Will?

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Did I not say God initiates? Christ says I stand at the door and knock, and if you open it, I will come in and dine with you...(God first then our action follows). God gave the Son and says in John 1:12 to as many as receive Him He gives the right or power to become the children of God (they are not already His children who receive). Repent and be baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ (which is a ministry of the Holy Spirit who is God) and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (that is, to dwell within you). Ephesians 1:13 also makes this clear when Paul says, In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth (faith comes by hearing), the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. So we see the hearing, the believing and then the sealing. That's all. This is what the whole council of God (not one side or the other) teaches. This is what Augustine later clarified. There are those who say grace but deny free will and they are incorrect, others stress free will so much grace becomes irrelevant (equally missing the point). The Bible clearly teaches both are true. God gives the opportunity to choose (grace) and then we must choose (free will). He commands (grace) and we must obey or not (free will).

The passages are so many. He comes to us and then having heard and faith is aroused we must decide whether to do Gods will or our will.

Take Cain for an example. God speaks to him after he brought the inappropriate sacrifice and is all upset. God offers Cain, totally by grace, a chance to go and do it right, and tells him if he does, all will go well with him. He even warns Cain of the consequence, yet Cain chooses not to, rejects God and His gracious offer, and acts as his own lord, doing what is right in his own eyes (always an abomination unto God).

Over and over the Scriptures in many places show us that the Lord will reveal Himself to us and some respond and accept and receive His promise while others, like in Romans 1, reject the Lord and the knowledge of Him, and suffer the consequence.

So if you read it carefully you would see I was not saying that we cause our salvation, or that what we do accomplishes or merits our salvation (He could have justly smote Cain right there and then...He knew what Cain would choose and do...only God did not cause Cain or make Cain to kill Abel, or else God would have been the responsible party...God forbid!) but rather because free will is real, we become responsible for our choices and thus the Lord is totally justified in judgment. All the early church fathers taught by either the Apostles or those who the Apostles trained and appointed as the first leaders taught this doctrine to their students. There simply were no Calvinists. When the command comes if we transgress we have sinned (1 John 3:4) and before the command there is no transgression.

How can they believe if they never heard? And how can they hear if no one preached? If they are already predetermined (as opposed to predestined according to His foreknowing like with Cain), or in Calvin's words "foreordained and created" to be damned, then in their sinning they were actually doing God's will for them (God forbid!).

In His love

Paul

Thanks Paul. You and I are not far from being totally in agreement. Well said.
Let me say I was not detracting from what you wrote...I was simply clarifying my stance, lest I be misunderstood.

I will attempt to do so again. "Free" will is the topic. The fact that God has done everything to allow man to be reconciled unto Himself does not change the fact that "none seeketh after God, no not one". Remember the great feast...all invited, no one came. The command then was to go out and "compel" them to come in.
That's my point. We were all in prison...Christ opened the doors...and if there was truly "free" will with us then we could, of our own volition, decide whether to come out or not. Scripture tells us that not a single solitary one would come out even though the door is wide open. Why not? Because in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing...I am by nature no different than Adam when he covered himself and hid.

So what does God do? He comes in to get us. By His Spirit, etc., he beseeches us, he constrains us, he persuades us, yea, he "compels" us to come. That's my point. The fact that I can come, that the door is unlocked, yea, is wide open avails me nothing unless by some Other Source I am drawn out.

"no man can come unto me unless the Father draw him"
"And I, if I be lifted above the earth will draw all men unto me"
"Draw me and we will run after thee"

Why all do not respond positively I do not understand...Holy Ground here. Again, thanks for your post.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

I was drawn by God and knew in 5 seconds that immortality is possible through the sacrifice of Jesus, in a strong experience. But after listening to much teaching and interpretation fell into work and personal interests and associations, bonding with "sinners".

14 years later the belief about what was experienced at the beginning was still intact. But it became apparent that my belief was the wrong perspective.

Not doubting in any way your experience brother. God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform...and I doubt not that the 'material' He's working with somehow contributes to the approach He takes. Even Paul said, "I am all things to all people", or something quite similiar, "that I might win some for Christ"...and he had a great Teacher.
​

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

For the purposes of this thread topic, showing that the 'will' of the tempter operates in the mind of mankind shows the fact of two parties present.

By whatever 'degree' is irrelevant to the fact of the two parties present.

Squint, I think all who have responded to your comments believe that Satan, whether the roaring lion or the angel of light, impacts the believer in many ways. That's a given. But you seem to speak from the belief that he somehow 'resides' in the minds of believers and it is this that some of us take exception to.
Maybe you think because the believer falls into sin is proof that this is so, but the scriptural fact is that man does not need Satan within or without to fall into sin. Our old nature is quite enough to get us in trouble.

Now what do I base this belief on? Well, scripture indicates there will yet be a 1000 year period in which that Deceiver will be bound. Not only that but society will Edenic again, justice and equity for everyone, with Christ Himself at the helm. But sin will still be present and judgment will be carried out summarily on a needs-be basis. And this with the Tempter in the abyss.

I think it relevant.

 

[pshun2404]

Thanks Shiloh. Yes I noticed you were saying almost the exact same thing. The difference is on our definition of what modern theologians have called "Total Depravity" and the application of a literal hermaneutic for the word "death" or "dead" where it fits their doctrinal position.

I do not believe the whole council of God on man's inability or his depravity speaks of ABSOLUTE INCAPABILITY, and I do not believe dead is to be taken literally accept where it pertains to actual physical or later spiritual death as the Bible defines these. For example, when the dead in trespasses and sins come to Christ, and the Holy Spirit baptizes them into Christ it is said that they DIE in Christ....so can the dead die? Is there a dead again doctrine anywhere in the apostolic teaching? No! So what does this mean? Literally dead? No! And even when it is said we are dead in trespasses and sins (which I believe) I know from scripture we are not born that way. We become this kind of dead when we sin. God does not hold the sins of the fathers against the children, therefore we are not born judged, condemned, and spiritually "dead" because of Adams sin or else God has lied (God Forbid). We are born subject to death and our nature has been corrupted so that we will sin, but we are not born guilty of Adam's sin just corrupted by it...his sin has introduced death (first physical and then when we sin spiritual)

In His name

Paul

 

[jasonsloss]

Thanks Paul. You and I are not far from being totally in agreement. Well said.
Let me say I was not detracting from what you wrote...I was simply clarifying my stance, lest I be misunderstood.

I will attempt to do so again. "Free" will is the topic. The fact that God has done everything to allow man to be reconciled unto Himself does not change the fact that "none seeketh after God, no not one". Remember the great feast...all invited, no one came. The command then was to go out and "compel" them to come in.
That's my point. We were all in prison...Christ opened the doors...and if there was truly "free" will with us then we could, of our own volition, decide whether to come out or not. Scripture tells us that not a single solitary one would come out even though the door is wide open. Why not? Because in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing...I am by nature no different than Adam when he covered himself and hid.

So what does God do? He comes in to get us. By His Spirit, etc., he beseeches us, he constrains us, he persuades us, yea, he "compels" us to come. That's my point. The fact that I can come, that the door is unlocked, yea, is wide open avails me nothing unless by some Other Source I am drawn out.

"no man can come unto me unless the Father draw him"
"And I, if I be lifted above the earth will draw all men unto me"
"Draw me and we will run after thee"

Why all do not respond positively I do not understand...Holy Ground here. Again, thanks for your post.

I have not read all the post so am not sure your view on free will so I am just asking... do we have free will or does God make the decision for us???

 

[Arcoe]

To help your reasoning, if we can not say we 'HAVE,' present tense, no sin and sin is of the devil and Paul had a devil (messenger of Satan) in his flesh, evil present with him, the chief of sinners.....

DEFINE FLEE

knock yerself out

s

FLEE - to avoid by flight, to vanish, to escape out of danger.

I showed you sin is born when one is taken prisoner of his own lusts.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

I have not read all the post so am not sure your view on free will so I am just asking... do we have free will or does God make the decision for us???

Can there be a third option??

Let me put it like this. It's something most if not all of us are familiar with.

Mom has cooked a delicious well-balanced meal and now we're ready to eat.

Total free will: Johnny can choose all, some, or none on his plate.

No Choice: Not good thinks Dad. He makes the decision for him. "You're going to eat every bite because it's good for you". He's forced to.

Choice, but with persuasion. I believe this is the one used by most families, happy families anyway. In the first option, Dad is unhappy. In the second, Johnny is. But here both are satisifed...Dad uses a little (or a lot) of coersion but it is Johnny who decides to eat. Same, I believe, with the family of God.

Left to myself I would never come, no matter how delicious. (in the end I wouldn't be pleased with this 'choice').

God makes the decision...I come, but in robot fashion, cause I cannot do otherwise. Whose pleased here? [Then am I likely not to ask why He didn't make the same decision for others?]

God uses every source at His disposal, and they are many, to draw us unto Himself. To bring us to a believing and a trusting faith. I would have to surrender my will here, following my Lord's example, "Not my will but thine be done".

To me, only the third has scriptural merit.

 

[AllanV]

I was drawn by God and knew in 5 seconds that immortality is possible through the sacrifice of Jesus, in a strong experience. But after listening to much teaching and interpretation fell into work and personal interests and associations, bonding with "sinners".

14 years later the belief about what was experienced at the beginning was still intact. But it became apparent that my belief was the wrong perspective.

Not doubting in any way your experience brother. God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform...and I doubt not that the 'material' He's working with somehow contributes to the approach He takes. Even Paul said, "I am all things to all people", or something quite similiar, "that I might win some for Christ"...and he had a great Teacher.
​

What has been shown is that a work of Faith is coming to completion in Christ. Everyone knows they fall short in them selves and the influences that are within the mind but the truth is lost. The reason for so many denominations, interpretations is because being incomplete is preached and accepted and this is actually anti-Christ. Christ is an anointing of such power that it is supernatural and this is not of the flesh. It can not be worked up by the emotions, in fact they stand in the way.

A person crosses over within the mind as they sacrifice their own self and with one act of the will make an effort to thrust away everything attached within the mind of their old nature. A battle goes on in the old mind. The nature of Jesus covers and then God indwells, it is supernatural and not superficial.

The energy coming from the person overflows in a manner that carries no human resonances indicating things such as irritation, superiority, including all those things we see in other personalities but not easily in our selves. It is always easy to find faults in others and then if someone is perfect and holy as is requested, to kill them. People prefer to be in the flesh, dictating to others in their religions. With the indwelling of God nothing is imposed on others from within.

The scriptures relate that it is necessary to be mature in Christ and not to be babes where one can be tricked by false doctrine. It should not be necessary for any teaching except to indicate the method and what can be expected. Not endless teaching about what the doctrines mean.

God calls individuals supernaturally and they are empowered to initiate others. This is not a decision one takes for themselves. There is no need for there to be any learning in bible colleges. God teaches intimately and one to one. It is more about method than intellectual prowess and Bible knowledge.

 

[pshun2404]

Allen, not trying to offend you but I do not think you addressed your own question or else you asked something Shiloh did not understand. I took the question to be as he understood it and I think he not only answered it adequately but gave the correct understanding. God calls or offers or allows people to hear His offer (the gospel) but at that point they must yield their will to His and some simply will not do this. God does not make, coerce, or force,the individual to accept. People are not regenerated (born of His Spirit) before they receive Him but after (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13, and more).

Calvin said, ""We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

So according to him, we are created to accept Christ, or created to sin the sins we sin and then be condemned. This is not Biblical.

Paul

 

[squint]

FLEE - to avoid by flight, to vanish, to escape out of danger.

I showed you sin is born when one is taken prisoner of his own lusts.

You are on record for internal temptation from the tempter.

Where then does the 'resisting' transpire?

???

 

[Arcoe]

You are on record for internal temptation from the tempter.

Where then does the 'resisting' transpire?

???

Internally!

 

[Rick Otto]

Man cannot be free of God's will.
It is a creation of God, therefore it exists by & within, His will.
It either does what He wants or does what He allows.
Therefore, either way, it exists & operates according to His will.

Rick, I'm not sure I follow you on this. If scripture says that He is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance...and we know that many perish because they fail to do that last thing...would you not say that such a one has freed himself from God's will?

If I'm not mistaken, the "all" He is not willing should perish are not the "all" He placed in Adam, but the smaller "all" He placed in Christ. (Eph 1:4}

His will to allow some of humanity to perish is in harmony with Romans 9:22:What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[AllanV]

Allen, not trying to offend you but I do not think you addressed your own question or else you asked something Shiloh did not understand. I took the question to be as he understood it and I think he not only answered it adequately but gave the correct understanding. God calls or offers or allows people to hear His offer (the gospel) but at that point they must yield their will to His and some simply will not do this. God does not make, coerce, or force,the individual to accept. People are not regenerated (born of His Spirit) before they receive Him but after (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13, and more).

Calvin said, ""We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

So according to him, we are created to accept Christ, or created to sin the sins we sin and then be condemned. This is not Biblical.

Paul

No offense taken, my writing is a bit terse and it is difficult to read others with full focus while attempting to bring out a point.
A revelation occurred some time ago that showed everything as set up is to bring the sons to completion. Therefore it is a case of overcoming the world. I have given up being sad that the people I have liked the most are children of wrath. I do have to watch the way I walk also. At one time I thought I do not want this, what is so special about me but that has a penalty and I fear God.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated (predestined) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will -KVJ-

This verse of scripture is more directed to those with callings as is indicated in previous verses for the edification of the church members.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the (a) Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (the full anointing)

Be perfect is a tall order and it cannot be done with own ability. It cannot be found from a rebellious nature or as babes in Christ. There is no pattern of being perfect in the natural mind, it is hidden. It takes the gifts that edify to bring others to the full anointing of Christ and to be complete.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor.

Eph5:2 should read - And walk in Love because the anointing brings Love and has been given to us with our offering and sacrifice to God and it is for a sweet smelling savor.

Return to me my saints those who have made a covenant by sacrifice. The sacrifices of (to) God are a broken and contrite heart and spirit. The way is now open for all who will to, to make this sacrifice.

Else where it says to present the body as a living sacrifice. The sweet smelling savor is what comes from within the person and the Lord said from within His followers living waters would well up and overflow. And this is not understood because it is energetic, spirit and cannot be comprehended, that is intellectually understood, only experienced.

Christ is anointing or anointed one. When a person is in Christ the anointing is very powerful and the Love within the heart is very strong and God will indwell powerfully because now the person, the individual, has a perfect nature. (the nature of Jesus) And the anointing of Christ places Love in the heart of those who are able to break and make contrite their own heart and spirit.

This is difficult to do to the depth required. There is a realm of the mind that obscures the way and hides the possibility. Satan deceives the whole world. And it is in the mind. The free will must take some forward action to expel what is influencing the mind and keep going. This is difficult to achieve with out help. Jesus said my will and the fathers will are one. Therefore this is what needs to be achieved. It is supernatural. The Holy Spirit is essential.

There are many scriptures that have been translated with an intellectual bias, and this is a work of the flesh. The Bible may have been destroyed other wise.

 

[Rick Otto]

So as free as it is believed to be, it yet is not free of needing help.
Not free.

 

[steve_bakr]

So as free as it is believed to be, it yet is not free of needing help.
Not free.

Good morning. Needing help does not mean "not free." That is an absolutist conclusion. Man can make free decisions within the limitations and contingencies of his existence. That part of us that can make a free decision is what matters. Rahner points out that sometimes that decision may amount to simply accepting a circumstance in life that we have been given.

 

[JackSparrow]

So as free as it is believed to be, it yet is not free of needing help.
Not free.

Ok ok it is forced will. Have it your way.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

If I'm not mistaken, the "all" He is not willing should perish are not the "all" He placed in Adam, but the smaller "all" He placed in Christ. (Eph 1:4}

His will to allow some of humanity to perish is in harmony with Romans 9:22:What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rick, I know where you're coming from in the above for many in my circle of fellowship interpret the Eph.1:4 and Rom. 9:22 in a similar way.

But to be honest I've never felt comfortable with that interpretation, not that making me 'comfortable' is the aim of scripture. But it just doesn't seem to fit either the character of God nor other portions of the revealed word.

That we (the elect of God) were chosen and predestined to the adoption of children "before the foundation of the world" cannot be questioned...I simply see this as the omniscient God "purposing" man for blessing before the world was, but not 'selecting' individuals that they must come.

Let me give a weak illustration:

Next week I plan to send out an invitation to the whole neighbourhood to attend a BBQ at my place. Bring nothing, come as you are. Now I 'know', statistically speaking (cause that's MY only source of 'knowing'), that some will not come. What they do not know is that I have already purposed to give them an additional gift, an inheritance say, that will be meted out to everyone who does. Now I (unlike my Lord) do not know just who will respond 'individually' but it matters not as to my invitation and my purpose...I am not 'choosing' who will come (all are invited), but I have chosen to bless those who do [and I have already done that though the BBq isn't until next week] and I have already predestined them to an inheritance, howbeit, not an incorruptible one.

Do you follow my thinking here. It takes nothing away from God...His purposes, His choosing, His predestining...yet answers truthfully His statement that "whosoever will may come".

I'll leave the Rom.9 for another time, suffice it to say, I find no contradiction in that situation either.

 

[squint]

Internally!

Well you are shining up rather well.

For purposes of this thread you understand then there is a struggle of wills internally. I will answer YES for you and not waste our time.

I would also observe on matters of FLEEING when any believer recognizes the 'struggle' is both internal and with an entity that IS NOT THEM but the worst vile evil on the face of the planet they have in fact INTERNALLY DIVIDED from that working at least by recognition of that fact and being TRUTHFUL about what is going on internally.

Flee can encompass many shades of understanding, one of which is to escape from danger.

I might suggest that being taken slave by lying about the fact of the internal struggle being with an entity(s) that is not us or being blinded to that fact is a form of CAPTIVITY/SLAVERY or worse yet, not speaking truthfully about it makes us lying pawns.

so,

congrats for arriving at an honest conclusion.

and thanks for being honest with me in the exchange.

I don't consider any man free who doesn't see or understand the battle, the enemy or where it transpires.

Those who do see those facts I would at least consider substantially free-ER for being honest. The Spirit has brought them honesty within.

s

 

[bling]

Rick, I know where you're coming from in the above for many in my circle of fellowship interpret the Eph.1:4 and Rom. 9:22 in a similar way.

But to be honest I've never felt comfortable with that interpretation, not that making me 'comfortable' is the aim of scripture. But it just doesn't seem to fit either the character of God nor other portions of the revealed word.

That we (the elect of God) were chosen and predestined to the adoption of children "before the foundation of the world" cannot be questioned...I simply see this as the omniscient God "purposing" man for blessing before the world was, but not 'selecting' individuals that they must come.

Shiloh you never addressed my post 381, but seem to have drawn a similar final conclusion.

I our discussion of God calling Adam just very good and not perfect I said:

It is not because of God’s use of grammar that Adam is not perfect. Christ was and is perfect, but Christ was not made.

The only attribute Adam and Eve lacked at their making was the attribute that would make them like God himself since God is Love, but not man’s type of love, Godly type Love.

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others)?

So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would he be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

Has God given man a mission statement? (this is always good to have)

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.


This is an assumptions on your part “There was nothing "in them" that predetermined their choosing the one or the other”. The problem is the choice is not just made one time, but would have to be made for an eternity of time over and over, and with just one bad choice they fail. They had: free will, satan is around, the tree is not protected, the tree has good looking fruit, the tree had the desirable quality of additional knowledge, lots of free time on their hands (nothing they had to do) and the tree is centrally located. They were also told “not to do something” which can generate desire to try it. Did Adam and Eve have a little “pride”: they have done nothing wrong, they were superior to all the other animals, they were given a lot of wonderful privileges, they were the first humans, they spoke with the creator of everything, and God was their Father. (Does pride come before a fall?) The big think is; they were not (could not be) created with Godly type Love and to obey you must first have this Love, but to obtain this Love Adam and Eve would have to first accept God’s Love as a free gift of charity which takes humility and at the time not doing anything wrong there was no need to be humble (they were deserving of what they got from their creator that did have a responsibility to them.


This is also an assumption: “If nothing changed with Adam's (and our) fall, there would be no need for a new, changed nature.” Adam and Eve at creation did not have Godly type Love so they could not obey. Adam and Eve like all of us had/have an objective that Adam and Eve did not fulfill while in the Garden situation (this objective is why we were all created in the first place).






The “image of God” is the same image we are all made in even today, so are we flawed? We have what it takes to become like God Himself in that we can obtain and have Godly type Love.


You say: “That was God's plan.” But it does not take a genius to realize under the Adam and Eve scenario Adam and Eve would eventually sin, so is God not think this through? Do you think God did not know about satan and where satan was?


Tell me would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your accepting God’s charity (where everyone after the Garden was or is)?


Your plan “A” did not work nor would it work, but it did help Adam and Eve and all the rest of us to understand a great deal about a lot of stuff especially why this tragic world situation is the best to help us fulfill our earthly objective.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Shiloh you never addressed my post 381, but seem to have drawn a similar final conclusion.

In our discussion of God calling Adam just very good and not perfect I said:

It is not because of God’s use of grammar that Adam is not perfect. Christ was and is perfect, but Christ was not made.
The only attribute Adam and Eve lacked at their making was the attribute that would make them like God himself since God is Love, but not man’s type of love, Godly type Love.

Actually, I thought I did. Bling, I have no problem with what you say about Godly-type love; there's truth in what you say. There's also truth in what Elman presents in his Ezek. 18 especially reporting, and what Squint says about the impact of the devil in our lives, and so on. My problem is that you folks seem to build your whole doctrine on a favourite portion or issue of Scripture to the neglect, it appears, of the whole. You've probably heard of the four blind Hindus who were asked to describe the elephant they were first introduced to: one held the trunk, another the tusk, a third the tail, and the fourth the foot. I won't go into it but you can well imagine how different a description of the elephant each one gave, yet there was an element of truth in all they presented. Such is the case here I believe.

We are, as Christians, called to emulate this Godly-type love. But you know we cannot do this in the same way God can. You say the only thing Adam lacked that would make him "like God Himself" is this love. If he could love like God he would be God, don't you see? You're not advocating the Latter Day Saint belief that "what man is, God was, and what God is, man can become", are you? Man, redeemed man, in glory even, will not be "equal with God"...God will always be our God...that's why we'll all cast our crowns before Him. Only of Christ could it be said, "who thought it not robbery to be equal with God". That never was nor never will be man's domain. Hence, though called on to emulate our Saviour who loves us 'infinitely', we can only rise to a 'finite' love for we are that, and that only [until we put on immortality].

Am I mistaking your intent about Godly type love?

To conclude, Adam was perfect when he came from God's hand. There was no mar or flaw and he wasn't lacking anything...love is something that cannot be 'placed' inside a person like an artificial heart...love is a response that grows there, essentially, a response to Love itself. But the ground has to be tilled...we are a hard-hearted and a stiff-necked people, at best.