Masons

[vocalyocal]

That's a popular theory, but you have no way of knowing if it's true or not. It's foolproof as a conspiracy theory because there is absolutely no evidence that it's true...to which you can say "See, that only shows how well the conpiracy has kept its secrets!"


Are you sure? Maybe you are the most naive person because bankers control the world and you write checks and have a bank account. Or maybe you are the most naive because a secret cabal of internationalists controls the world and you pay your taxes to it. Conspiracy theories are really neat as arguments because no one can DISprove them. But OTOH, in most things in life, it's what CAN be proven that we normally go by, not the most fantastic myths.



P. T. Barnum isn't known to have been a Mason, but no matter. We've already decided that facts don't matter when we're dealing with conspiracy theories.

207 Bowery
From 1859 to 1862 this was a Free and Accepted Mason Lodge, where P.T. Barnum was a member. It held offices and classrooms until the late 1880s when Henry Miner bought the property. Later “Big” Tim Sullivan set up his headquarters here. Sullivan was notoriously corrupt, and handed out free food, shoes and bail money in exchange for votes and worked with gangsters who assisted in voter fraud.

 

[Albion]

207 Bowery
From 1859 to 1862 this was a Free and Accepted Mason Lodge, where P.T. Barnum was a member. It held offices and classrooms until the late 1880s when Henry Miner bought the property. Later “Big” Tim Sullivan set up his headquarters here. Sullivan was notoriously corrupt, and handed out free food, shoes and bail money in exchange for votes and worked with gangsters who assisted in voter fraud.

This is interesting, but I can find no verification of it. You can check list after list of famous Masons, including one online that supposedly lists 10,000 famous Masons, and there is no P.T.Barnum anywhere. I would think that the fame of this man would certainly put him on every "Famous Masons" list if he had indeed been a Mason. But this isn't all that unusual. There are numerous people who have for years been called Masons who actually were not Freemasons, Neil Armstrong among them.

 

[Albion]

Says the poster who uses a swastika for his CF profile picture.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I realize that there are many misrepresentations about Masons. And certainly they not are perfect. But why is there such a campaign against them.

Because a lot of conspiracy theories developed regarding them. They were a somewhat secretive organization which in and of itself leaves them open to all sorts of myths and theories about what really goes on there. They also tended to support liberty, democracy, the abolition of monarchy, freedom of religion and progressive ideas like that which made a lot of Monarchs and the more conservative church officials look askance at them.

The Catholic church specifically demanded total allegiance and the idea of people belonging to another organization which claimed a high degree of allegiance (other than countries/nations of course which they had to accept) was something they weren't down with. Especially when the organization was secretive in any way so the church couldn't properly evaluate it to make sure they are teaching church approved ideas.

 

[Albion]

Because a lot of conspiracy theories developed regarding them. They were a somewhat secretive organization which in and of itself leaves them open to all sorts of myths and theories about what really goes on there. They also tended to support liberty, democracy, the abolition of monarchy, freedom of religion and progressive ideas like that which made a lot of Monarchs and the more conservative church officials look askance at them.

The Catholic church specifically demanded total allegiance and the idea of people belonging to another organization which claimed a high degree of allegiance (other than countries/nations of course which they had to accept) was something they weren't down with. Especially when the organization was secretive in any way so the church couldn't properly evaluate it to make sure they are teaching church approved ideas.

And yet the Roman Catholic Church's imitation of Masonry--the Knights of Columbus--has all the secret handshakes and etc. of Freemasonry. In fact, much less is known about them than about Masonry whose secrets are available to anyone with a bookstore nearby...and yet the conspiracy nuts never seem to mention them.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

Says the poster who uses a swastika for his CF profile picture.

off-topic and thus illegal here my friend, please return to the topic if you have anything relevant to add...

[and wise up my friend BEFORE demonstrating your ignorance of early history so publicly ... learn about the real meaning of the two opposing symbols :-
Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Hinduism

"The paired swastika and 'sauwastika' symbols [right and left-hand] are included, at least since the Liao Dynasty, as part of the Chinese writing system (卍 and &#21328 and are variant characters for 萬 or 万 (wàn in Mandarin, man in Korean, Cantonese and Japanese, vạn in Vietnamese)
meaning "all" or "eternity" (lit. 'myriad'). "

" ... prehistoric use seems to be reflected in the appearance of the symbol in various folk cultures of Europe."

"The concept of racial purity was an ideology central to Nazism, though it is now considered unscientific. ...The use of the swastika as a symbol of the Aryan race dates back to writings of Emile Burnouf. Following many other writers, the German nationalist poet Guido von List believed it to be a uniquely Aryan symbol."

ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

so the Nazi misuse of the one symbol for growth is demonstrably simply a mistake by their researchers ... although ironically the growth and death of Nazi-ism in Hitler's Germany was indeed part of the pyramid of power manipulations of this world connected with masonry and world banking as MEANS to growth of Satanic powers over short-sighted mankind [easily tempted by thoughts of power, money, sex, enslavement of others to do the work of life, etc , as distinct from Jesus' command to saints to be servant of all overcoming all things of this life , this world, by Love... in a sense then the symbols may be thought to represent the growth and death of evil as integral to God's plan (2Thess 2) as integral to God's plan to establish the government of Christ by Love over all men in the end ... the end of Satan's power of sin over mankind and his repentance and acceptance of Jesus as king is indeed the crowning glory of Christ's kingdom...

but the real meaning is more than this, the symbols represent the growth and destruction, the beginning and the and FROM PREHISTORY ... they are the earliest symbols of Christ known to man, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end of the work of the creator with man ...

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

thus the idea of 'all' is more accurate by far than the idea of 'eternity' , but such is the way with interpretations, but yours is simply wrong, along with the Nazis... what is much sadder is that you attempt to use personal slurs of character by innuendo as part of argument here -and so abuse the rules you agreed to keep- besides that being a very sad deceitful behaviour in itself]

 

[Albion]

You must feel you have something to explain. I didn't raise any of that as an issue.

 

[Root of Jesse]

York Rite is the so-called Christian branch of Masonry, and its most "advanced degree" is a "Christians-only" order. But no oaths to any god are sworn and the Koran is not used.



Oh, the inqusitions, Crusades, and pogroms easily come to mind.

"By the way, Jack, I'd like to know more about the secret and bloody oaths and the passwords and handshakes used by the Knights of Columbus are. Can you reveal them?"

I didn't get your answer to this one.

You were speaking to someone named Jack, that's not me. I'm not a Knight, so I don't know. I have no qualm with having a society, whether masons or knights. But you attacked Catholicism's opposition to Catholics becoming Masons, and that's what I addressed. Catholics cannot be Masons because the two are diametrically opposed. You agreed that no religion is held above another in the Masonic Rite, and that is the sin of indifferentism. The oaths, etc. are anti-Catholic. Catholics should not become Masons.

Regarding the inquisitions, Crusades, and pogroms, there is nothing in any of those that produced what you suggested. Inquisition was a court system. Crusades were called to protect the Christian population. Pogroms were mob attacks, not sanctioned by "the RCC".

 

[Albion]

I'm not a Knight, so I don't know. I have no qualm with having a society, whether masons or knights. But you attacked Catholicism's opposition to Catholics becoming Masons

I don't believe that's correct. I explained why the Church has opposed Freemasony. Anyone is entitled to consider it to be either justified or not.

Catholics cannot be Masons because the two are diametrically opposed. You agreed that no religion is held above another in the Masonic Rite, and that is the sin of indifferentism. The oaths, etc. are anti-Catholic. Catholics should not become Masons.

Well, that's not indiffentism. If it were indifferentism, you'd have a good point.

Regarding the inquisitions, Crusades, and pogroms, there is nothing in any of those that produced what you suggested. Inquisition was a court system. Crusades were called to protect the Christian population. Pogroms were mob attacks, not sanctioned by "the RCC".

That defense didn't work at Nuremberg and it's not credible now either.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

Because a lot of conspiracy theories developed regarding them. They were a somewhat secretive organization which in and of itself leaves them open to all sorts of myths and theories about what really goes on there. They also tended to support liberty, democracy, the abolition of monarchy, freedom of religion and progressive ideas like that which made a lot of Monarchs and the more conservative church officials look askance at them.

The Catholic church specifically demanded total allegiance and the idea of people belonging to another organization which claimed a high degree of allegiance (other than countries/nations of course which they had to accept) was something they weren't down with. Especially when the organization was secretive in any way so the church couldn't properly evaluate it to make sure they are teaching church approved ideas.

the world today is and oligarchy set up by Satan as COMPETING systems of power over men which keep most men divided in every aspect of life , which is the ONLY way to prevent Love breaking out and uniting mankind in happy co-operative life all serving one anothers' needs freely by choice of this better way of living God has said He CAN and WILL establish once mankind is fed up with the lies of the current ways of the many [which bring upon us disaster in the longer term , sadly we destroy our own earth , as now with amss extinction of life that once did almost all the work of feeding us automatically ... now billions will starve because of our failure to Love one another , just as Jesus and the prophets have foretold for Millennia]

the problem with masonry as with other institutions is the commitment to the FEW to make them elite with fake power of the group over the many... it is NOT the way of Jesus as SERVANT of ALL that God teaches the few saints who wills et up Jesus' kingdom in the new earth once we finish experiencing the consequences of our abuse of this world, it's death, our death ... as Jesus and the prophets describe, by starvation, wars, pestilence, and finall by volcanism that blots out the sun shutting off the source of life on earth completely [as we know can kill almost all life on earth]

Genuine people who are reborn in Christ's Spirit are in the simplicity of Christ and have no quarrel with anyone about religion. They have enough interior strife with the bestial, evil, flesh and blood... It is the greatest foolishness in Babel that the devil has made the world to quarrel about religions, so that they quarreled about self made opinions, about the letter.

- Jakob Boehme

religion will unite as Jesus says, but in worship of a false god calling himself God and Christ -Rev 13:3-4 - Jesus warned us NOT to be fooled , but equally said that teh wghole world will eb bar his few saints... how few? - jesus gave us the figures to work it out, around two thousand scattered worldwide of all nations, only perahas one in seven of them 'Jews' [House of Judah] as the House of Israel is larger and Jesus tells us the details - Rev 7:3-8...

so teh few will Love in obedience to Jesus the Christ of Israel and the many till death will sin and be destroyed - matt 7:13-14, but later countless many will be saved in the kingdom come set up by the few as its kings and priests under the leadership of Jesus as king of kings at last, high priests of the immortal priesthood of Melchizedek... which rather shows the meaning of countless priesthoods set up by men to set arbitrary religious beliefs of most men [clearly at odds with much scripture of God and with one another, unlike the few saints by time of their death , taught by God, not by men...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

You must feel you have something to explain. I didn't raise any of that as an issue.

Ah, but you did and do know exactly what you did hence the at the end! -showing both your ignorance and that you rely on others being just as ignorant of the Truth about this most ancient of symbols abused more recently by the Nazis and so what most think of in relation to it, but you and they are mistaken , so your little game of abuse misfires and you try to cover up instead of apologising ... and it ain't nice to try slurring folks despite being a dishonest and evil way of arguing - not used by saints of God because it is subtly deceitful as indeed is the power behind masonry and its connected pyramid enslaving the world for Satan [now seen mostly in rat-race capitalism robbing and killing teh poor to maintain the power of the few until the world falls apart and destroys everyone, as Jesus says is the end of Satan's plans in this earth ... which as God says is fine, evil destroys itself and men are queued up in death until the kingdom is ready to help the many save themselves by Loving one another, by works once all are freed from death and hell -Rev 20:13- so countless many are saved through Christ [Rev 7:9-10] in the kingdom come who clearly are all destroyed in this earth -Matt 7:13-14- so you chose the wrong side instead of choosing to Love folks in co-operation, equality, mutual respect, of Love- even here ... masonry si part of the hierarchy of evil simply because men join to gain advantage as they see it over other men, but Jesus pointed out that those who would be greatest need to be servant of all, like him , so i witness to your your sin of innuendo through common misbeliefs about the meaning of the swastika which YOU brought to this thread ... now look back and see why you did that, and if you care about yourself, repent your motives which are little different that teh motives of those who become masons ... ironically when you work it out it is only fear that causes men to abandon Love and choose the sick ways of this world, the rat-race of not caring for fellow man as one tramples ever 'upward' only to find one day it is Satan claiming to be God at the top and one has lost sight of Love on the way :-

Says the poster who uses a swastika for his CF profile picture.

 

[Skip Sampson]

And if it did promise salvation, you could provide names of Masons who teach that Freemasonry will gain mankind religious salvation.

You err in demanding anecdotal evidence of members verses the actual teachings of the GL's. A member may hold an opinion; the GL is the teaching authority.

I will provide this from an actual, deceased member though (emphasis added):

Freemasonry has a religious service to commit the body of a deceased brother to the dust whenc eit came and to speed the liberated spirit back to the Great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the religion of Freemasonry. If that is a false hope, the Fraternity should abandon funeral services and devote its attention to activities where it is sure of its ground and its authority. (H.W. Coil, Encyclopedia, 1st edition, 1961, pg. 5120

He goes on to describe Freemasonry:

Freemasonry is not a science, and, if it is progressive, then a large segment of the Craft is mistaken in supposing that it is fixed and unalterable. Freemasonry is undoubtedly religion; it has a dogma; and it practices rites, though the religion is simple and creedless and the dogma is mild. "Religion's handmaid" possibly means that Masonry is an aid to religion, but why religion should need assistance is not apparent. (Ibid, pg. 158)

Definition of Freemasonry in its broadest sense: Freemasonry, in its broadest and most comprehensive sense, is a system of morality and social ethics, a primitive religion, and a philosophy of life, all of simple and fundamental character, incorporating a broad humanitarianism and, though treating life as a practical experience, subordinates the material to the spiritual; it is a religion without a creed, being of no sect but finding truth in all; it is moral but not pharisaic; it demands sanity rather than sanctity; it is tolerant but not supine; it seeks truth but does not define truth; it urges it votaries to think but does not tell them what to think; it despises ignorance but does not proscribe the ignorant; it fosters education but proposes no curriculum; it espouses political liberty and the dignity of man but has no platform or propaganda; it believes in the nobility and usefulness of life; it is modest and not militant; it is moderate, universal, and so liberal as to permit each individual to form and express his own opinion, even as to what Freemasonry is or ought to be, and invites him to improve it if he can. (Ibid, pg. 159)

When I get some time, and interest, I'll point to GL documents that support my view. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

Ah, but you did

No, I didn't.

and it ain't nice to try slurring folks despite being a dishonest and evil way of arguing - not used by saints of God because it is subtly deceitful as indeed is the power behind masonry and its connected pyramid enslaving the world for Satan [now seen mostly in rat-race capitalism robbing and killing teh poor to maintain the power of the few until the world falls apart and destroys everyone, as Jesus says is the end of Satan's plans in this earth ... which as God says is fine, evil destroys itself and men are queued up in death until the kingdom is ready to help the many save themselves by Loving one another, by works once all are freed from death and hell -Rev 20:13- so countless many are saved through Christ [Rev 7:9-10] in the kingdom come who clearly are all destroyed in this earth -Matt 7:13-14- so you chose the wrong side instead of choosing to Love folks in co-operation, equality, mutual respect, of Love- even here ... masonry si part of the hierarchy of evil

As you've seen, I don't talk that way about fellow Christians.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't believe that's correct. I explained why the Church has opposed Freemasony. Anyone is entitled to consider it to be either justified or not.


Well, that's not indiffentism. If it were indifferentism, you'd have a good point.



That defense didn't work at Nuremberg and it's not credible now either.

in·dif·fer·ent·ism

noun \-fərn-ˌti-zəm, -f(ə-)rən-\




Definition of INDIFFERENTISM

: indifference; specifically: belief that all religions are equally valid
— in·dif·fer·ent·ist \-fərn-tist, -f(ə-)rən-\noun


Nuremburg was entirely different. Nazis, or the Nazi party, put Jews in concentration camps and gassed them, and many other atrocities. It was Nazi policy to do so.

Catholics have never tried to destroy Jews, even though through the Gospels and Acts, Jews persecuted Christians and Jesus. In fact, Paul attempted to convert many of them, and they stoned him, beat him, etc. So while Catholic people may have hated Jews and put them in ghettos, it was not the Church's policy. Which leads us up to WWII, when the Catholic Church actively protected Jews from the Nazis, which is what, I guess, you're referring to. Nuremburg was not about the Catholic Church, sir., er, Jack.

 

[Albion]

in·dif·fer·ent·ism

noun \-fərn-ˌti-zəm, -f(ə-)rən-\




Definition of INDIFFERENTISM

: indifference; specifically: belief that all religions are equally valid
— in·dif·fer·ent·ist \-fərn-tist, -f(ə-)rən-\noun

Well then, I'll put it this way for you. Masonry absolutely does not believe that all religions are equally valid, in no way, never, no.

Nuremburg was entirely different. Nazis, or the Nazi party, put Jews in concentration camps and gassed them, and many other atrocities. It was Nazi policy to do so.

And it was Papal policy to do all those other atrocities.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well then, I'll put it this way for you. Masonry absolutely does not believe that all religions are equally valid, in no way, never, no.


And it was Papal policy to do all those other atrocities.

Your first statement, please tell us what they do believe?

Second statement comes from the southbound end of a northbound donkey. Totally un-true.

 

[Albion]

Your first statement, please tell us what they do believe?

To be a Mason it is necessary to be a believer in monotheism and the immortality of the soul. Since there are religions that do not believe one or both of those, it's obvious that Masonry does not consider all religions to be equally valid. What's more, even among those religions that are represented by the membership, there is no suggestion that they are equally valid or that one of them cannot be true to the exclusion of any other. And every member is encouraged to be true to his own faith. The membership is merely open to men who meet the qualifications mentioned above, with no judgment about which is better than another, of if they are all equal, or anything like that. It is simply a fraternity open to men of different faiths, just as the Boy Scouts are or the Optimists are or many other such civic associations.

 

[Root of Jesse]

To be a Mason it is necessary to be a believer in monotheism and the immortality of the soul. Since there are religions that do not believe one or both of those, it's obvious that Masonry does not consider all religions to be equally valid. What's more, even among those religions that are represented by the membership, there is no suggestion that they are equally valid or that one of them cannot be true to the exclusion of any other. And every member is encouraged to be true to his own faith. The membership is merely open to men who meet the qualifications mentioned above, with no judgment about which is better than another, of if they are all equal, or anything like that. It is simply a fraternity open to men of different faiths, just as the Boy Scouts are or the Optimists are or many other such civic associations.

Really? Buddhists can be masons. Hindus can be masons. Both have multiple deities...

 

[Albion]

Really? Buddhists can be masons. Hindus can be masons. Both have multiple deities...

I don't know of any Buddhist Masons, but a few Hindus have apparently been admitted on the basis of Krishna being the god with three million others being demi-gods. I personally wouldn't agree, but it still isn't the case that Masonry therefore considers all religions to be equally valid--which is what you alleged.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't know of any Buddhist Masons, but a few Hindus have apparently been admitted on the basis of Krishna being the god with three million others being demi-gods. I personally wouldn't agree, but it still isn't the case that Masonry therefore considers all religions to be equally valid--which is what you alleged.

Well, even if you qualify that by saying all monotheistic religions, that's still wrong, and it's still indifferentism. As for this Catholic man, I beleive what my religion tells me, and I submit to their wisdom.