The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[Keachian]

You don't seriously stand by this do you? I think, perhaps, that you mean that whatever God does, it will be seen to be moral, even if it did not once appear to be so.




?

It would be obviously unfair if God, for no good reason, withheld that which was necessary for a man's salvation - especially if, as is the case, He urges mankind to turn to Him and believe (and does so, endlessly, throughout scripture).

Of course, God has not actually withheld salvation but, in your view and doctrine, what was the reason for withholding salvation progmonk?




God is just but the doctrines of Calvin paint an awful picture of Him. If Calvin were proven correct in his estimation of God then that would indeed be a awful day.

This is not about the doctrines of Calvinism, it is about you having decided that your notion of Just is greater than that of God's and so regardless of the truth of Calvinism if God does something it is just that he do so and so I find it an affront to God's justice that you would say it would be unjust for him to do something and unless you are an open theist God has created beings that he full well knows are going to hell. So does God know all things from creation to judgment day?

 

[Keachian]

And the question:
If God withholds that without which salvation is impossible He is unjust is He not?

If God were to do such a thing he would be Just in doing so. He is the standard by which anything is Just

 

[Keachian]

Let's state it more strongly, if God were to destroy the universe in fire, without saving a single soul he would be just in doing so

 

[janxharris]

Let's state it more strongly, if God were to destroy the universe in fire, without saving a single soul he would be just in doing so

So if God decides to kill all babies under the age of 3 just because he feels like it that is okay is it? Yes or no?

I am shocked by your view of God's justice. God will not act in such a way without good reason.

 

[janxharris]

If God were to do such a thing he would be Just in doing so. He is the standard by which anything is Just

And if He withholds salvation from you, is that okay?

 

[janxharris]

This is not about the doctrines of Calvinism, it is about you having decided that your notion of Just is greater than that of God's and so regardless of the truth of Calvinism if God does something it is just that he do so and so I find it an affront to God's justice that you would say it would be unjust for him to do something and unless you are an open theist God has created beings that he full well knows are going to hell. So does God know all things from creation to judgment day?

An astonishing view.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Originally Posted by crimsonleaf

Because THAT's the question that I'VE never heard answered by a non-Calvinist...
​

You have now.

Er... no I haven't.

Listen carefully; God knows IN ADVANCE who will and who won't believe. Knowing the non-believers will GO TO HELL, God goes ahead and creates them anyway. WHY?

So now you can have another go at answering the question without side-stepping the very obvious fact that God not only knows in advance that some of those He creates will go to hell, but He knows WHICH ONES.

Is that creation of the doomed cruel? Because apparently it is if you call yourself a Calvinist , but not if you're called anything else.

But maybe there's only one true division - Calvinists and Hypocrites.

 

[JackSparrow]

T....it is about you having decided that your notion of Just is greater than that of God's ....?

progmonk, is it not more about you stomping over Holy ground.

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
.....
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

If I may be to the point, this is the problem with Calvinism. I.e "Oh it must one of two alternatives". C'mon - get real.

 

[JackSparrow]

Er... no I haven't.

Listen carefully; God knows IN ADVANCE who will and who won't believe. Knowing the non-believers will GO TO HELL, God goes ahead and creates them anyway. WHY?

WHY not read the thread you were directed to before WHY NOT ?

But maybe there's only one true division - Calvinists and Hypocrites.

 

[janxharris]

Er... no I haven't.

Listen carefully; God knows IN ADVANCE who will and who won't believe. Knowing the non-believers will GO TO HELL, God goes ahead and creates them anyway. WHY?

So now you can have another go at answering the question without side-stepping the very obvious fact that God not only knows in advance that some of those He creates will go to hell, but He knows WHICH ONES.

Is that creation of the doomed cruel? Because apparently it is if you call yourself a Calvinist , but not if you're called anything else.

But maybe there's only one true division - Calvinists and Hypocrites.

The difference is that we say every man has a chance; Calvin didn't. Calvin said that man is unable.

If every man has the chance to put his faith in God and be saved, then how does God's knowledge that they wont, in any affect that ability? Please give us an example.

Is man totally depraved or not? Is man able to turn to God or not? Are you a Calvinist or not?

 

[crimsonleaf]

WHY not read the thread you were directed to before WHY NOT ?

Two reasons: 1. I can't find a link to any thread where the question is answered, and 2. Do I have to read a whole thread just to let Arcoe off the hook?

How about either of you answering the question, right here, right now? It should be simple. We can answer it in one sentence. You try.

 

[gmm4j]

Er... no I haven't.

Listen carefully; God knows IN ADVANCE who will and who won't believe. Knowing the non-believers will GO TO HELL, God goes ahead and creates them anyway. WHY?

So now you can have another go at answering the question without side-stepping the very obvious fact that God not only knows in advance that some of those He creates will go to hell, but He knows WHICH ONES.

Is that creation of the doomed cruel? Because apparently it is if you call yourself a Calvinist , but not if you're called anything else.

But maybe there's only one true division - Calvinists and Hypocrites.

Hey Crimson,
I see a big difference in God creating while knowing in advance those who WILL and who WILL NOT receive His salvation, and God creating while knowing in advance those HE WILL and WILL NOT enable to receive His salvation. In both cases a group is doomed. Only in one case, does God doom a group knowing that He will never give them a genuine opportunity to receive His salvation because He already determined (not that they WILL NOT), but that HE WILL NOT.

 

[Keachian]

So if God decides to kill all babies under the age of 3 just because he feels like it that is okay is it? Yes or no?

I am shocked by your view of God's justice. God will not act in such a way without good reason.

It would be just of him to do so, do I believe that he will do so? No I don't

 

[crimsonleaf]

Hey Crimson,
I see a big difference in God creating while knowing in advance those who WILL and who WILL NOT receive His salvation, and God creating while knowing in advance those HE WILL and WILL NOT enable to receive His salvation. In both cases a group is doomed. Only in one case, does God doom a group knowing that He will never give them a genuine opportunity to receive His salvation because He already determined (not that they WILL NOT), but that HE WILL NOT.

In both cases, prior to an individual's creation, God can look at that potential individual and say "If I create that man I know he will suffer eternal torment", and he goes ahead and creates him. True or not true?

It has nothing to do with giving them a "genuine opportunity" as God "pre-knows" that they will turn it down prior to their existence.

Playing with semantics is fine, but ultimately fruitless. If I have mice in the house and put down a number of mouse traps I can't claim a lack of responsibility when the mice "freely wander" into them. God creates hell and He creates unbelievers. It shouldn't be a huge intellectual leap to see how the two situations are linked.

 

[Arcoe]

Er... no I haven't.

Listen carefully; God knows IN ADVANCE who will and who won't believe. Knowing the non-believers will GO TO HELL, God goes ahead and creates them anyway. WHY?

The ways of God are foolishness to men, especially those whose minds are closed and set in their ways. Of course God knows who will not believe and go to hell. But He has provided for every man the remedy for the situation every man has gotten himself into.

He loves the whole world and came to seek and save the lost, which includes every man, woman, and child. Everyone has gone astray, doing what seems right in their eyes.

The non-Calvinist does not believe God has left anyone to their own device without any hope of salvation. God works in ways of which man has no knowledge. Just because man refuses, of himself, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, does not mean God does not love them.

So now you can have another go at answering the question without side-stepping the very obvious fact that God not only knows in advance that some of those He creates will go to hell, but He knows WHICH ONES.

Did God know you would be this vile, hating, lying, cheating, disgusting monster of a man? Why did He create you knowing you would be this way? Did He not know that while you were in this horrendous condition, you would hurt others?

And did He not provide the remedy for your awful condition? Was this remedy not provide for all? If you say no, then your beliefs are the impetus for your question. Non-Calvinists believe He came to seek and save the lost, with nothing added nor subtracted from that truth.

Is that creation of the doomed cruel? Because apparently it is if you call yourself a Calvinist , but not if you're called anything else.

It's only cruel when He doesn't provide the remedy for every person. Again, I can't help but seeing Calvinism a very selfish system. "God predestined and saved me, and not everyone gets this privilege."

But maybe there's only one true division - Calvinists and Hypocrites.

Really? Is that how you think of the rest of us? As I said, you have a very selfish belief system. "It's me and no one else."

 

[crimsonleaf]

The difference is that we say every man has a chance; Calvin didn't. Calvin said that man is unable.

This discussion has been had a 1000 times, but once more: if God sees that a man will not believe, prior to creating him, then that man will not believe. Period. He can have as many chances as you want, but if ultimately he doesn't believe then he doesn't believe. Your problem lies in the fact that God knows before He created him that this would be the case. And my question is, if God knows for certain that a man will not believe and is therefore destined for hell, why does He go ahead and create him?

People who try to respond to this will dance around, insert straw men and red herrings and ultimately fade away.

If every man has the chance to put his faith in God and be saved, then how does God's knowledge that they wont, in any affect that ability? Please give us an example.

How about my answer above?

Is man totally depraved or not? Is man able to turn to God or not? Are you a Calvinist or not?

Generally speaking I hold to TULIP, yes. And if you study TULIP and read beyond the headlines you get two parallel schools of thought on TD. One is that Man has been MADE unable to believe without the help of the Holy Spirit. The other is that Man IS unable, because his will renders him so.

I belong to the latter school. This is one reason why I have no trouble with the many quotes which show God practically begging Man to believe. Because Man CAN but WON'T. So, a vegetarian will say he is unable to eat meat. Is he able? Of course, but his will is that he will not.

The bible is quite specific in saying that Man has a corrupt will, bound in sin. Listen to what Paul says to the believers in Corinth:

(1Co 2:14) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

And how we know this to be true...

 

[JackSparrow]

Two reasons: 1. I can't find a link to any thread where the question is answered, and 2. Do I have to read a whole thread just to let Arcoe off the hook?

How about either of you answering the question, right here, right now? It should be simple. We can answer it in one sentence. You try.

Standby, ill go and find it - again.

 

[JackSparrow]

Okekoki - did not take long.

If you followed this thread you will see two answers in response to a standard Calvinist straw-man deflection.


Originally Posted by cygnusx1
Precisely !

There seem to be only two answers :

1. God willingly permitted evil with much suffering to Himself in order to overthrow it .

2. God doesn't permit evil , it just happens ! He has no control or say over the future , such is Gods nature that He must take risks in order to be Love ....


I know which one is scriptural .

As you know, I am not a Calvinist,. I go with option 1 - mostly. I do not believe any non calvinist will go with option 2 unless they are nuts (IMO).

God willingly permitted evil with much suffering to himself, Why ? Why in order to overthrow it if he could of just of not permitted it in the first place.

I rather think along the line of God permitted man some free will ( I know you will hate this ). Adam had two options sin or not sin. He did not have the option of be more good or sinless. Why did God permit Adam to make a wrong choice.

One answer would be he did not want robots but genuine love.

Another would be that it was the only way God could reveal more of himself to man. How could God show his all powerfulness if man never disobeyed ?


So I believe God willingly permitted evil with much suffering to Himself. He did not decree evil. As for the reasons, I expect there are more.

 

[janxharris]

It would be just of him to do so, do I believe that he will do so? No I don't

It would be just for God to do so? Really?

I'm curious, why do you think that God would not decide to kill all such babies? What is the difference between God deciding to kill all such babies and God withholding salvation from the non-elect?

You think God would not kill the babies but you think he would withhold salvation.

 

[Keachian]

It would be just for God to do so? Really?

I'm curious, why do you think that God would not decide to kill all such babies? What is the difference between God deciding to kill all such babies and God withholding salvation from the non-elect?

You think God would not kill the babies but you think he would withhold salvation.

I believe that he has done one and will not do the other because he has revealed it as such in the Scriptures