The Witness of the Apostles Refutes Calvinism, Predestinationism

[JackSparrow]

Jer 17:9



Is 45:7, Eph 1:11

Good quotes but what do you do with verses that differ ( quoted so many times already ). Should we not reconcile them rather than pick and chose ?

 

[Keachian]

Good quotes but what do you do with verses that differ ( quoted so many times already ). Should we not reconcile them rather than pick and chose ?

I haven't seen any that are problematic, in fact the one that has been problematic most recently to my faith has been Is 45:7 but now I understand it and am not worried, and while I still need to learn I believe at this point in time God needs me to teach and edify the Church

 

[JackSparrow]

I haven't seen any that are problematic, in fact the one that has been problematic most recently to my faith has been Is 45:7 but now I understand it and am not worried, and while I still need to learn I believe at this point in time God needs me to teach and edify the Church

Hmmm, being silly methinks or he does not read his Bible much.

Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


If using the standard get out 'All' does not mean all when one does not want it to there is still the 'not any'. Oh, ok just pass over that bit.

Why you guys insist that God is the author of sin beats me.

 

[janxharris]

What "Calvinist" here says God does anything "for no good reason"?

What is the 'good reason' for withholding that without which salvation is not possible?

 

[MuffinTheMan]

What is the 'good reason' for withholding that without which salvation is not possible?

I don't claim to know the reasons for everything God does beyond that He does everything for His own glory. But...

"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles." - Romans 9:22-24

I also still don't see how it is morally superior for God to create men with free will knowing that most will reject Him and go to hell than for Him to choose some for salvation and leave the rest to justly perish for their sins.

 

[JackSparrow]

Hi Muffin

Are you of the persuasion that there is no free will whatsoever and God created all men with finite and fixed ends. No chance of a reprobate even wanting salvation ?

It seems to me this thread as evolved into the Calvinist proponents going for the classic puppet robot ideas.

Where are you on this ? As in how do you counter that ?

 

[Keachian]

Hmmm, being silly methinks or he does not read his Bible much.

Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


If using the standard get out 'All' does not mean all when one does not want it to there is still the 'not any'. Oh, ok just pass over that bit.

Yes God tarries in bringing an end so that the fullness of those he has elect might come to saving faith.

Why you guys insist that God is the author of sin beats me.

Two things; we don't insist that and why you guys insist on a pagan view of evil beats me. It comes back to Is 45:7
I form light and I create darkness;
I make peace and I create evil;
I am Yahweh; I do all these things

 

[JackSparrow]

Yes God tarries in bringing an end so that the fullness of those he has elect might come to saving faith.


MIGHT

 

[JackSparrow]

Two things; we don't insist that and why you guys insist on a pagan view of evil beats me.

Oh my

I cut and pasted a verse from the Bible !

You call it pagen !!!!

 

[Keachian]

Yes God tarries in bringing an end so that the fullness of those he has elect might come to saving faith.


MIGHT

Yes, they are not all in saving faith now otherwise there would be a trump and then the end, there is no question of them not coming to saving faith because they are elect.

 

[Keachian]

Oh my

I cut and pasted a verse from the Bible !

You call it pagen !!!!

Are you enjoying your adventures in irrelevance, does God ordain evil as Is 45:7 clearly states, or does evil only come from Satan/humans?

 

[JackSparrow]

"does God ordain evil " reworded - is God the author of evil ?

Anyone want to have a go ?

 

[MuffinTheMan]

Hi Muffin

Are you of the persuasion that there is no free will whatsoever

Thanks for the question, Jack. I honestly have a hard time answering the question of whether or not we have "free will" because we don't have an agreed upon definition of "free will." Do I believe that man can do whatever he wants? Absolutely not--but neither does anyone here. No one here believes that humans can fly like birds by flapping their arms just because they choose to of their own "free will" (correct me if I'm wrong!). So perhaps the question is a matter of how limited our "will" is (since it's obviously limited in some way). I would say that God has decreed that which will come to pass, and our "will" is subject to His decree--we can never thwart it.

...and God created all men with finite and fixed ends. No chance of a reprobate even wanting salvation ?

I more or less agree with this, but we say that none of us would ever want to submit our lives to Christ were it not for the quickening of the Holy Spirit. No one will ever repent and place their trust in Christ and be turned away.

It seems to me this thread as evolved into the Calvinist proponents going for the classic puppet robot ideas.

Where are you on this ? As in how do you counter that ?

Perhaps what I posted above may help answer this (or maybe not), but I must confess that I don't have everything figured out yet (and won't in this life), and this is one of those things for which I might not have a good answer. But I understand that God did not create us for our own sake--He created us for His glory, and His will will be done.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Crimson,
I see a big difference in God creating while knowing in advance those who WILL and who WILL NOT receive His salvation, and God creating while knowing in advance those HE WILL and WILL NOT enable to receive His salvation. In both cases a group is doomed. Only in one case, does God doom a group knowing that He will never give them a genuine opportunity to receive His salvation because He already determined (not that they WILL NOT), but that HE WILL NOT.

In both cases, prior to an individual's creation, God can look at that potential individual and say "If I create that man I know he will suffer eternal torment", and he goes ahead and creates him. True or not true?

It has nothing to do with giving them a "genuine opportunity" as God "pre-knows" that they will turn it down prior to their existence.

Playing with semantics is fine, but ultimately fruitless. If I have mice in the house and put down a number of mouse traps I can't claim a lack of responsibility when the mice "freely wander" into them. God creates hell and He creates unbelievers. It shouldn't be a huge intellectual leap to see how the two situations are linked.

As I said God creates knowing who will and will not receive His salvation - yes. But, He does not create knowing who He will and will not enable to receive His salvation.

It does have something to do with giving them a "genuine opportunity" even though He knows many will turn it down.

It is not playing with semantics and we are not mice (though from a Calvinist view this may be a good analogy). Yes, God's justice demands that those who do not receive His salvation deserve death, but He has made the abundant and sufficient provision of Life for mankind to be reconciled to Him. God does not predetermine those who will reject His salvation nor does He predetermine those who He will enable to receive His salvation. He provides salvation for all and permits man to accept or reject it. And yes, He knows those who will reject it and He creates them with that knowledge, but the offer was genuine unlike the Calvinist model.

 

[JackSparrow]

Thanks for the question, Jack. I honestly have a hard time answering the question of whether or not we have "free will" .....

Thanks MuffinTheMan

It is a hard thing to figure out as you rightly say.

I think you are also right the question should be "How limited is our will" . I don't go for totally unable myself. Most non calvinists do not go with totally free. And of course finite man can never thwart and infinite God.

"God has decreed that which will come to pass"

I am not so sure. This would mean he decreed each and everyones sin.

God reconciling all thing that come to pass for his own purpose - yes.

God worketh all things for his glory - yes - as in God can use man's own evil to bring about his own end.

The bottom line is in the end - which God has decided - the end result will be exactly as he determined. That is the end result. Not every action of man.

 

[JackSparrow]

Last night I went to a lecture which was a brief run through the Old Testament.

Very depressing to see that at each stage the message was how thing had gone badly wrong. Then got worse and worse.

The Exodus and dessert wanderings. THe split in the kingdoms. The Exile. The 400 years silence to the new Testament etc. Every stage things were bad. The whole audience was deflated until the lecturer concluded what is the point of the Old Testament.

He demonstrated admirably that one of the points is to reveal God to us more clearly. For To have a better understanding and get to know God more. He gave many examples of this which I will not do justice to on a small post.

Contrast this with the understanding of God presented by some here:
God ordains sin.
No hope for the reprobates.
Everything is determined.

Ugh. What a horrible contrast.

 

[drstevej]

The whole audience was deflated until the lecturer concluded what is the point of the Old Testament.

The poster (Jack) was deflated until the Christmas Calvinist (drstevej) concluded what is the point of the Old Testament and New Testament -- the Glory of God.

Cats want it to be about them. Dogs want what the Master wants. I'll take Thee ology over Meow ology.

 

[vette 10]

Read Calvin's institutes.

BTW how was your holiday ?

no no time for hollidays work work work and driving my 69 vette

 

[JackSparrow]

The poster (Jack) was deflated until the Christmas Calvinist (drstevej) concluded what is the point of the Old Testament and New Testament -- the Glory of God.

Cats want it to be about them. Dogs want what the Master wants. I'll take Thee ology over Meow ology.

I thought it was you. Ok, no I didn't.

But no. One of the points of the new Old Testament was God reveling himself to man. I wish I had an electronic version to post some quotes.

By the way, the lecturer, Peter Mead, is a Calvinist who studied in the US. I am wondering if it was Westminster Seminary. Next time I will ask him.

 

[drstevej]

I thought it was you. Ok, no I didn't.

But no. One of the points of the new Old Testament was God reveling himself to man. I wish I had an electronic version to post some quotes.

By the way, the lecturer, Peter Mead, is a Calvinist who studied in the US. I am wondering if it was Westminster Seminary. Next time I will ask him.

Peter holds degrees from the University of the West of England in Bristol, Multnomah Biblical Seminary (MDiv/MABS), and the Doctor of Ministry degree in homiletics from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, where Haddon Robinson was his mentor.


BTW, Haddon Robinson taught me preaching. Awesome guy. I don't know Peter