DO We Have Free Will?

[elman]

Unusually, I'm going to defend elman on this one. Satan may well have been the first tempter, but the responsibility for the sin itself lies with man. Adam was not controlled by the Satan and neither are we. Saying we are of the devil is the same as saying we are Satan's children - not literally true but a metaphor for our condition.

Thank you.

 

[squint]

Believing other people are blind can prevent one understanding their own blindness.

Quite beside the engagement of fact put on the table for discussion.

I don't know how to make it any simpler than to again say that mankind is not alone between their 2 ears.

As such freewill is a logical absurdity regardless of how many people 'believe it.'

s

 

[elman]

Quite beside the engagement of fact put on the table for discussion.

I don't know how to make it any simpler than to again say that mankind is not alone between their 2 ears.

As such freewill is a logical absurdity regardless of how many people 'believe it.'

s

Who or what is in there between your ears? Is that preventing your being able to help someone in need? If not you have free will.

 

[squint]

Who or what is in there between your ears? Is that preventing your being able to help someone in need? If not you have free will.

Thanks for the entertainment.

too funny

 

[Bro in Christ]

proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

discussion should end!

if your agueing .... you need to mature ... 1 jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

no argueing with his word !

 

[seeking Christ]

I have not seen anyone comment on the possible distinctions between the Lord directing our steps, and free will. There would seem to be some relationship here ...

 

[Bro in Christ]

God bring circumstances to direct your free will in the direction of his sovergn will!

 

[AllanV]

Quite beside the engagement of fact put on the table for discussion.

I don't know how to make it any simpler than to again say that mankind is not alone between their 2 ears.

As such freewill is a logical absurdity regardless of how many people 'believe it.'

s

There is something very subtle that is difficult to see unless it it tested. The mind is ruled by the flesh and this is obvious in actions and in conversation. The will is hijacked.

But even more thoughts appear and then something prompts or tempts to act out in actions and in conversation. Irritation in the voice is one aspect but in a certain situation this could become aggravation and then the action could be to murder. Most people are impulsive and would not understand what happened to them but would feel they had been overtaken by something.

Satan magnifies himself above God and this Spirit sits in place of God in the individual mind. The human personality is actually Satan projecting and magnifying it for others to see and remember. Demons tempt and are fixtures of the mind. All human thoughts with reactions toward each other while interacting with what is sensed is actually Satan's ruler ship and kingdom. Most keep this in check but never fully conquered.

It is difficult to understand freewill because a certain enslavement is apparent that causes each individual to play out the person they have become from life experience with a genetic influence.
The aim should be to displace Satan and his demons with God, severing hereditary influence and it must be in the mind. The energy proceeding from the person would change and not be harsh. This is the kingdom of God.

 

[pshun2404]

Quite beside the engagement of fact put on the table for discussion.

I don't know how to make it any simpler than to again say that mankind is not alone between their 2 ears.

As such freewill is a logical absurdity regardless of how many people 'believe it.'

s

And thank God you are free to believe this...Amen?

Paul

 

[AllanV]

The will is hijacked by the flesh and the mind and brain are used to supply its needs to sustain its biological life. But ego is involved and the self with its own belief will fight to the death even to support an ideology.
Each person believes in their own self and being self empowered through the will.

Perhaps free will is being free from believing in God. The Fathers will and my will are one.

 

[squint]

And thank God you are free to believe this...Amen?

Paul

I am very thankful to see the fact and to not 'have' to lay judgments on my fellow believers, yes.

Very much so. There are better alternatives available that are more scripturally accurate.

If we can't be honest about it our wills are merely lying.

Paul was brutally honest about his own conditions. I am thankful for his honesty.

s

 

[squint]

There is something very subtle that is difficult to see unless it it tested. The mind is ruled by the flesh and this is obvious in actions and in conversation. The will is hijacked.

But even more thoughts appear and then something prompts or tempts to act out in actions and in conversation. Irritation in the voice is one aspect but in a certain situation this could become aggravation and then the action could be to murder. Most people are impulsive and would not understand what happened to them but would feel they had been overtaken by something.

Satan magnifies himself above God and this Spirit sits in place of God in the individual mind. The human personality is actually Satan projecting and magnifying it for others to see and remember. Demons tempt and are fixtures of the mind. All human thoughts with reactions toward each other while interacting with what is sensed is actually Satan's ruler ship and kingdom. Most keep this in check but never fully conquered.

It is difficult to understand freewill because a certain enslavement is apparent that causes each individual to play out the person they have become from life experience with a genetic influence.
The aim should be to displace Satan and his demons with God, severing hereditary influence and it must be in the mind. The energy proceeding from the person would change and not be harsh. This is the kingdom of God.

Glad somebody sees the facts of it.

Jesus taught us to disassociate with internal evil long before the shrinks showed up. He even showed us it is not us within, doing so, as believers.

Any who understand that are blessed far above others. And they will not condemn other than where it really belongs.

s

 

[steve_bakr]

if your agueing .... you need to mature ... 1 jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

no argueing with his word !

Yes, you are right. There can be opinions, but no disputes or disrespect.

Catholic theology supports the concept that man has free will within the contingencies of our given circumstances. This can be tested by our own personal experience.

In Catholic theology, man is free to say "yes" or "no" to God. Sometimes this answer can be so implicit that we may not even realize when we said "yes" to God.

If free will did not exist, it would all but make our lives meaningless. Salvation would have no more meaning than winning a lottery,because we would not be in any way connected to what was happening in our lives.

We believe, however, that life and salvation have meaning and are connected with a relationship to Jesus Christ as a free decision.

We also have the free will not to be disputatious towards others. Amen.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto Free will is a euphemism for self will. We do God's will, or we do our own.
"Will" is the ability to amongst other things, make a choice, I agree.
Adam debased that will by sinning with us in him. Now our natural will is to sin. It isn't free.

Glad to see someone connect our current state to what happened in the garden...man's will was only "free" before sin entered. A couple of points on what has been said earlier.

Take Paul , the self-proclaimed chief of sinners. First, his statement as being post-salvation. It is not credible to think that Paul is commenting on a life of sin after he was saved; like you and I, he only came to fully realize just what a great sinner he was when he had his eyes opened to what he was by nature. This is where the comment is coming from and I have no doubt he was using a bit of hyperbole as well.
Secondly, and of utmost importance, is this. To show that the unregenerate man CAN DO NOTHING BUT SIN God allows us to see the very best of religious man, a man who had "a zeal for God, but not according to righteousness" (like his nation). Here was one who really believed he was doing (by free choice, he thought no doubt) God's will in apprehending those "of that way", bringing them bound to Jerusalem, and witnessing to their deaths. His abhorance of what he did as a religious zealot brought forth, I do believe, that claim to be the chief of sinners. But it just goes to show that the very "best choices" that unregenerate man lay claim to is just "sin" in the eyes of God.

And here's another point. Only the redeemed has the ability to "choose"...the point being that the unregenerate does not possesss the new nature in order to do so...but the redeemed has two natures and can yield to the one or the other...this is one reason why Paul, in Heb 5, desires all (believers) to come to maturity in spiritual things, that we might "by reason of use (habit or perfection) have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil". That ability, lost in Adam, is restored in Christ.

 

[steve_bakr]

There is something very subtle that is difficult to see unless it it tested. The mind is ruled by the flesh and this is obvious in actions and in conversation. The will is hijacked.

But even more thoughts appear and then something prompts or tempts to act out in actions and in conversation. Irritation in the voice is one aspect but in a certain situation this could become aggravation and then the action could be to murder. Most people are impulsive and would not understand what happened to them but would feel they had been overtaken by something.

Satan magnifies himself above God and this Spirit sits in place of God in the individual mind. The human personality is actually Satan projecting and magnifying it for others to see and remember. Demons tempt and are fixtures of the mind. All human thoughts with reactions toward each other while interacting with what is sensed is actually Satan's ruler ship and kingdom. Most keep this in check but never fully conquered.

It is difficult to understand freewill because a certain enslavement is apparent that causes each individual to play out the person they have become from life experience with a genetic influence.
The aim should be to displace Satan and his demons with God, severing hereditary influence and it must be in the mind. The energy proceeding from the person would change and not be harsh. This is the kingdom of God.

We may be influenced by a variety of biological and social factors. The important aspect is where we have free will to make decisions, especially about God.

This issue of mental conflict in the mind is a very complicated issue. I would cautiously insist that overall we have the ability to decide what thoughts or desires we are going to give our attention to.

In severe cases, it may not always be helpful to entertain the notion of demons being in our minds. This could be the cause of a psychiatric condition that would require professional treatment.

It can be a tough call. We know that involuntary thoughts come to us at anytime. But we do have the free choice of not entertaining those thoughts. If someone honestly feels they have lost this ability, they should get an evaluation by a professional.

 

[steve_bakr]

Glad to see someone connect our current state to what happened in the garden...man's will was only "free" before sin entered. A couple of points on what has been said earlier.

Take Paul , the self-proclaimed chief of sinners. First, his statement as being post-salvation. It is not credible to think that Paul is commenting on a life of sin after he was saved; like you and I, he only came to fully realize just what a great sinner he was when he had his eyes opened to what he was by nature. This is where the comment is coming from and I have no doubt he was using a bit of hyperbole as well.
Secondly, and of utmost importance, is this. To show that the unregenerate man CAN DO NOTHING BUT SIN God allows us to see the very best of religious man, a man who had "a zeal for God, but not according to righteousness" (like his nation). Here was one who really believed he was doing (by free choice, he thought no doubt) God's will in apprehending those "of that way", bringing them bound to Jerusalem, and witnessing to their deaths. His abhorance of what he did as a religious zealot brought forth, I do believe, that claim to be the chief of sinners. But it just goes to show that the very "best choices" that unregenerate man lay claim to is just "sin" in the eyes of God.

And here's another point. Only the redeemed has the ability to "choose"...the point being that the unregenerate does not possesss the new nature in order to do so...but the redeemed has two natures and can yield to the one or the other...this is one reason why Paul, in Heb 5, desires all (believers) to come to maturity in spiritual things, that we might "by reason of use (habit or perfection) have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil". That ability, lost in Adam, is restored in Christ.

Catholic theology would say that, due to original sin, we have a tendency to sin, a vulnerability to sin, but we have not lost ALL capacity towards good. There are non-Christian people who do good deeds all the time. Also, we receive from God a certain capacity to be oriented towards the call of God. This is called, in theology, the "supernatural existential," aka, grace.

 

[squint]

We may be influenced by a variety of biological and social factors. The important aspect is where we have free will to make decisions, especially about God.

This issue of mental conflict in the mind is a very complicated issue. I would cautiously insist that overall we have the ability to decide what thoughts or desires we are going to give our attention to.

In severe cases, it may not always be helpful to entertain the notion of demons being in our minds. This could be the cause of a psychiatric condition that would require professional treatment.

It can be a tough call. We know that involuntary thoughts come to us at anytime. But we do have the free choice of not entertaining those thoughts. If someone honestly feels they have lost this ability, they should get an evaluation by a professional.

I'd suggest you have little respect for what Jesus taught in these matters.

Satan and devils are very real, their thoughts imposed into MAN.

Sometimes even real famous men:

2 Cor. 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


If Satan tempted Jesus, none else are spared, period.

Those who don't know it are without knowledge.

s

 

[steve_bakr]

I'd suggest you have little respect for what Jesus taught in these matters.

Satan and devils are very real, their thoughts imposed into MAN.

Sometimes even real famous men:

2 Cor. 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


If Satan tempted Jesus, none else are spared, period.

Those who don't know it are without knowledge.

s

I did not say that the Enemy and demons don't exist. I was addressing a specific and possible situation. If someone says that their mind is controlled by evil entities, that is a real red flag. A situation that requires attention.

Satan tempts me as well, but he does not control my mind.

 

[squint]

I did not say that the Enemy and demons don't exist. I was addressing a specific and possible situation. If someone says that their mind is controlled by evil entities, that is a real red flag. A situation that requires attention.

For purposes of 'freewill' the observation has been made that temptation is of the tempter and transpires within the minds of people, rendering a verdict of freewill a logical fallacy.

s

 

[steve_bakr]

For purposes of 'freewill' the observation has been made that temptation is of the tempter and transpires within the minds of people, rendering a verdict of freewill a logical fallacy.

s

And I say that we have the free will to say "no" to evil and "yes" to God.

Let us, then, respectfully disagree.