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Why does God not stop the evil?

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Archaeopteryx

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Misinterpreting one's statements is what happens when you interject into a conversation that two people are having. All that I wrote must be understood in the context of Loudmouth's statement. That is why it is unwise to jump into people's conversations when you had no stock in the conversation in the first place.

You also keep saying morality is relative because two people may have differing religious views. That does not mean that objective moral values and duties don't exist LOL, that means we are members of diffferent religions. :doh:

Of course my religious views are going to be relative to my religion. I as a Christian am not going to believe Muhammad was the last and greatest prophet, and a Muslim most certainly is not going to claim Jesus is the Son of God. These are matters of adherence to doctrinal matters, not moral ontology.

They are matters of morality when you reduce moral claims to religious claims. As I said in the post you replied to, you captured it well when you said: "It is also not tenable because in the case of moral disagreements, there is no logical, viable way to arbitrate between two or more opposing [religious] views." How do you go about convincing someone that their moral claim is wrong when, in other to do so, you must convince them that the religious doctrines they adhere to are also wrong? How successful are you likely to be in doing so if the person you are trying to convince has just as much faith as you do?
 
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Elioenai26

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Now you are simply stretching the meaning of words to save face. By what measure did you conclude that Sam Harris is not a philosopher? His book The Moral Landscape deals with philosophical issues, does it not? (We wouldn't be talking about it if it didn't). Many of his critics are philosophers, aren't they? Are you going to pretend that every time you use the word 'philosopher' you are only ever referring to those who have obtained a degree in philosophy? From where did Socrates obtain his degree? I suppose he isn't a philosopher either. ^_^

Generally, I am going to consider a person a philosopher if that person has been educated primarily as a philosopher and holds at least a Ph.D. in a closely related field, if not philosophy itself. Sam Harris is known primarily as a neuroscientist. He has a B.A. in philosophy. Most if not all of his collegues who rebuked him are not philosophers.

Harris has been criticized by some of his fellow contributors at The Huffington Post. In particular, R. J. Eskow has accused him of fostering an intolerance towards Islam, potentially as damaging as the religious fanaticism that he opposes. Margaret Wertheim, herself an atheist, also weighed in, contending that liberals should view Harris's account of religious faith "with considerable skepticism".

In May 2006, Harris came under sustained attack in a featured article by Meera Nanda for the New Humanist, in which she claimed that his analysis of religious extremism was flawed, and suggested that he was criticizing religion "for what seems to be his real goal: a defense, nay, a celebration of Harris' own Dzogchen Buddhist and Advaita Vedantic Hindu spirituality." Nanda stated that Harris failed to apply the same critical analysis to the eastern traditions as he applied to Western religions, and she argues that the detachment from the self in Dharmic spirituality is part of the recipe for authoritarianism.[59]

Journalist Chris Hedges' book When Atheism Becomes Religion (originally published as I Don't Believe in Atheists) targets Harris and Dawkins as its two examples of the worst atheism has to offer. Early in the book,[60] Hedges quotes a statement from Harris's The End of Faith[61] regretfully advocating a nuclear first strike as arguably "the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe" in the event of an Islamist regime such as Iran acquiring nuclear weapons capability. Harris has responded[62] to Hedges' repeated mentions of the quotation (throughout the book and in subsequent articles and interviews) by reprinting the passage in question with sections highlighted to stress his personal horror not only at the likely immediate casualties of a first strike but also at the probable ultimate consequences for Westerners, and his call for Muslim nations to police each other's weapons development so as to prevent the scenario from arising.
Anthropologist Scott Atran has criticized Harris for using what Atran considers to be an unscientific approach towards highlighting the role of belief in the psychology of suicide bombers. In the 2006 conference Beyond Belief, Atran confronted Harris for portraying a "caricature of Islam". Atran later followed up his comments in an online discussion for Edge.org, in which he criticized Harris and others for using methods of combating religious dogmatism and faith that Atran believes are "scientifically baseless, psychologically uninformed, politically naïve, and counterproductive for goals we share".[63] In The National Interest, Atran argued against Harris's thesis in The Moral Landscape that science can determine moral values. Atran adds that abolishing religion will do nothing to rid mankind of its ills.[64]
In January 2007, Harris received criticism from John Gorenfeld, writing for AlterNet.[65] Gorenfeld took Harris to task for defending some of the findings of paranormal investigations into areas such as reincarnation and xenoglossy. He also strongly criticized Harris for his defense of judicial torture. Gorenfeld's critique was subsequently reflected by Robert Todd Carroll, writing in the Skeptic's Dictionary.[66] On his website Harris disputed that he had defended these views to the extent that Gorenfeld suggested.[67] Shortly afterward, Harris engaged in a lengthy debate with Andrew Sullivan on the internet forum Beliefnet.[68] In April 2007, Harris debated with the evangelical pastor Rick Warren for Newsweek magazine.[69]
Madeleine Bunting quotes Harris in saying "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them", and states this "sounds like exactly the kind of argument put forward by those who ran the Inquisition".[70] Quoting the same passage, theologian Catherine Keller asks, "[c]ould there be a more dangerous proposition than that?" and argues that the "anti-tolerance" it represents would "dismantle" the Jeffersonian wall between church and state.[71] Writer Theodore Dalrymple described the passage as "quite possibly the most disgraceful that I have read in a book by a man posing as a rationalist".[72] Harris repudiated his critics' characterization, stating they "have interpreted the second sentence of this passage to mean that I advocate simply killing religious people for their beliefs. . . . but such a reading remains a frank distortion of my views."[73] Harris goes on to argue that beliefs are only dangerous to the extent that they can influence a person's behavior, and to the extent that the behavior is violent. He believes that pre-emptively attacking known dangerous fanatics (i.e. Osama Bin Laden) is justified. Harris also claims, however, that "Whenever we can capture and imprison jihadists, we should. But in most cases this is impossible."[73] If the quote is read in its context it clearly states that when extreme beliefs motivate terrorism preemptive strikes against potential terrorists are sometimes justified. [74]

Wikipedia*
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Generally, I am going to consider a person a philosopher if that person has been educated primarily as a philosopher and holds at least a Ph.D. in a closely related field, if not philosophy itself.

So Socrates and Plato were not philosophers? Interesting!

Sam Harris is known primarily as a neuroscientist.

I love that you referred to Wikipedia, which says in the opening line for the entry on Sam Harris: "Sam Harris (born 1967) is an American author, philosopher, public intellectual, and neuroscientist, as well as the co-founder and CEO of Project Reason."
 
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Elioenai26

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"It is also not tenable because in the case of moral disagreements, there is no logical, viable way to arbitrate between two or more opposing [religious] views."

That quote.... you know the one you keep using.....you do know it was regarding ethical subjectivism right? :doh:



How do you go about convincing someone that their moral claim is wrong when, in other to do so, you must convince them that the religious doctrines they adhere to are also wrong? How successful are you likely to be in doing so if the person you are trying to convince has just as much faith as you do?


If a Muslim tells me their god told them to fly planes into buildings to kill infidels, Im gonna say: "hey man maybe this god you're following isnt really God, but just your own twisted, sociopathic hatred for those who do not think like you do.

They are wrong Archaeopteryx. You know it, I know it, and every sane person knows that if a person thinks god told them to fly a plane into a building to kill thousands of infidels that they are morally impaired at best. Their very own belief is the very evidence I would use to show them the untenability of their "faith".
 
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Elioenai26

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So Socrates and Plato were not philosophers? Interesting!

They were. I do not know if universities existed back then though.

I most certainly am not going to believe someone is a philosopher because they say: "I am a philosopher". I am going to ask for credentials. You should too.

I love that you referred to Wikipedia, which says in the opening line for the entry on Sam Harris: "Sam Harris (born 1967) is an American author, philosopher, public intellectual, and neuroscientist, as well as the co-founder and CEO of Project Reason."

I love it too, especially since in my post I noted that he had a B.A. in philosophy right after I said he was a neuroscientist.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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That quote.... you know the one you keep using.....you do know it was regarding ethical subjectivism right? :doh:

Yes, I am fully aware of what you were referring to when you wrote those words. I just happen to think that it describes religious morality very well.

If a Muslim tells me their god told them to fly planes into buildings to kill infidels, Im gonna say: "hey man maybe this god you're following isnt really God, but just your own twisted, sociopathic hatred for those who do not think like you do.

And when you say that you would participate in genocide if you believe your God commanded it, should I say something similar? "hey man maybe this god you're following isnt really God, but just your own twisted, sociopathic hatred for those who do not think like you do." Would that convince you?

They are wrong Archaeopteryx. You know it, I know it, and every sane person knows that if a person thinks god told them to fly a plane into a building to kill thousands of infidels that they are morally impaired at best. Their very own belief is the very evidence I would use to show them the untenability of their "faith".

How is that going to convince them? You insist you are right, and that God doesn't command such things, and they insist they are right and that God does command such things. Both of you are equally strong in your faith. So how are you going to convince them?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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They were. I do not know if universities existed back then though.

So your criteria for determining philosopher from non-philosopher isn't very good.

I most certainly am not going to believe someone is a philosopher because they say: "I am a philosopher". I am going to ask for credentials. You should too.

I'm not suggesting that you should believe someone is a philosopher merely because they insist that they are. But assuming that the credentials make the philosopher is just silly. Wittgenstein had already delved deep into philosophy before he was "accredited". Philosophers such as Plato and Socrates were never "accredited" in the manner in which you speak. Perhaps a more flexible definition of 'philosopher' is warranted? Such as "Those who engage with philosophical problems". In which case Sam Harris definitely is a philosopher.

I love it too, especially since in my post I noted that he had a B.A. in philosophy right after I said he was a neuroscientist.

So you concede that he is a philosopher?
 
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Loudmouth

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When your moral code is justified by "because my god says so" we see atrocities abound. -Loudmouth

To which I replied: "It depends on the god you are referring to."

This makes morality relative to the god you believe in. This makes morality relative by your own admission.

Atrocities would abound if people believed for example, an evil sadistic god was giving them divine commands to torture and rape women and babies. This is self evident. But honestly, who is running around saying God told them to rape and torture women and babies? Do you know of anyone who is doing that?

Christians are.

"2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:2-3).

We even have God commanding human sacrifices.

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
 
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Elioenai26

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And when you say that you would participate in genocide if you believe your God commanded it, should I say something similar? "hey man maybe this god you're following isnt really God, but just your own twisted, sociopathic hatred for those who do not think like you do." Would that convince you?

I never said I would participate in genocide under any circumstance. So your repetitive assertions that I did are boring me.



How is that going to convince them? You insist you are right, and that God doesn't command such things, and they insist they are right and that God does command such things. Both of you are equally strong in your faith. So how are you going to convince them?

I would deal with them the same way I am going to deal with you. I am going to leave you alone and allow you to think what you want because it is obvious, you are not open to reason.

Someone who is not open to reason cannot be reasoned with. Good night.
 
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Elioenai26

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Christians are.

1. I do not know of any Christians who are killing Amalekites
2. I do not know of any Christians who are killing mediums, and psychics, and idol worshippers.
3. I do not know of any Christians who are killing pagan priests.

Do you know of any? If so, call the local police and report them. These people are obviously sociopathic.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I never said I would participate in genocide under any circumstance. So your repetitive assertions that I did are boring me.

:sigh: Please don't make me go trawling through posts to prove you wrong. I asked you whether you would kill a child begging for her life to be spared if you believed that you were following a divine directive. You response indicated that you would.

I would deal with them the same way I am going to deal with you. I am going to leave you alone and allow you to think what you want because it is obvious, you are not open to reason.

Someone who is not open to reason cannot be reasoned with. Good night.

The Muslim apologist says the same thing to you: "I am going to leave you alone and allow you to think what you want because it is obvious, you are not open to reason. Someone who is not open to reason cannot be reasoned with." So in the end you have neither convinced him and he has not convinced you, and the conflict between your opposing religious moralities remains unabated.
 
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Elioenai26

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:sigh: Please don't make me go trawling through posts to prove you wrong. I asked you whether you would kill a child begging for her life to be spared if you believed that you were following a divine directive. You response indicated that you would.

That is genocide? I thought genocide was the systematic destruction of an ethnic group because of their ethnicity????:confused:

I did not know that genocide had been recently redefined to mean killing a child.

Hmm.... when did this happen???:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
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Archaeopteryx

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That is genocide? I thought genocide was the systematic destruction of an ethnic group because of their ethnicity????:confused:

I did not know that genocide had been recently redefined to mean killing a child.

Hmm.... when did this happen???:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

You can stop playing dumb now. The question was asked in the context of "What would you do if you were there when God commanded genocide?" I elaborated that question to include a specific scenario in which you had just killed the girl's entire family and had found her hiding somewhere. Killing the child is part of the genocide.
 
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Loudmouth

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1. I do not know of any Christians who are killing Amalekites
2. I do not know of any Christians who are killing mediums, and psychics, and idol worshippers.
3. I do not know of any Christians who are killing pagan priests.

Do you know of any? If so, call the local police and report them. These people are obviously sociopathic.

Did you read the passage or not? Did you read the part where God's Law called for human sacrifice?
 
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mathetes123

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Do you mean killing infant Amalekites because they are Amalekites? That is exactly what God commanded.

The Bible also says that the penalty for sin is death. Since we are all sinners, if we were to ask God to judge the world, in the abscence of Christ's atoning death on the cross for our sins, we would all be condemned to hell. God used Israel to judge a nation that he had given 400 years to repent.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The Bible also says that the penalty for sin is death. Since we are all sinners, if we were to ask God to judge the world, in the abscence of Christ's atoning death on the cross for our sins, we would all be condemned to hell. God used Israel to judge a nation that he had given 400 years to repent.

I thought God judged individuals, not nations? What did the children do that was so sinful to warrant their killing? And why did he did use Israel to enforce his judgment? Could he not have dealt it himself?
 
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mathetes123

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I thought God judged individuals, not nations? What did the children do that was so sinful to warrant their killing? And why did he did use Israel to enforce his judgment? Could he not have dealt it himself?

God also judged Israel, so yes he does judge nations. I believe the USA is in the warning stages of God's judgement right now. If we don't repent as a nation and return to God, we are not any more immune to His judgement than the nation of Israel was.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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God also judged Israel, so yes he does judge nations. I believe the USA is in the warning stages of God's judgement right now. If we don't repent as a nation and return to God, we are not any more immune to His judgement than the nation of Israel was.

That seems a bit silly. Why judge whole nations? I notice you avoided my questions regarding the children. Why is that?
 
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