Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

[Hillsage]

The question you'll come to is: If there is no Hell, then why would we need salvation?

I once asked a Jew what she was taught about hell when she was growing up. She said she never heard of hell until she was exposed to "Christianity". They never taught about it. So I ask you, why would those Jews have thought they needed salvation, if they never were even taught about hell?

And in the days of Jesus, there was a group known as Sadducee who didn't even believe in the hereafter, because they thought salvation was for this life only. I would tend to think that those, whose only reason for believing is 'fear of eternal hell', aren't really even saved. If you only believe out of fear then do you really even know of His love. Believing 'because there is eternal hell' is kind of like saying "Honey, don't worry about me ever committing adultery on you, because I really do fear divorce.

This is what we are saved from. The wages of sin is death, physical and spiritual.

Interesting, so let me see if I read you correctly; Everyone who claimed to be a Christian, but died physically really wasn't saved then.

Lastly, can you tell me where "spiritual death" is in scripture. I personally never found it, so I tend to think that killing a spirit is sort of like 'shooting Casper with a 357 magnum'....

 

[Alive_Again]

So I ask you, why would those Jews have thought they needed salvation, if they never were even taught about hell?

We don't learn about Hell from Jews. We learn about it from Jesus!

If you only believe out of fear then do you really even know of His love.

If you "only" maybe. But if you're a believer you DO know His love and you can still listen and give earnest heed to what Jesus said about Hell and FEAR HIM who has the power to send you there. It's good and bad and a godly fear (like we're supposed to have) will have out of an reverential awe of God, cause you to order your deeds to please Him because narrow is the path that leads to life.

Believing 'because there is eternal hell' is kind of like saying "Honey, don't worry about me ever committing adultery on you, because I really do fear divorce.

People love because they know their spouses. However, anyone who ever played around on his wife and lost her and got divorced should know and be able to give any married man an admonition not to play around on his wife becaue there ARE consequences that can lead to permanent separation.

Lastly, can you tell me where "spiritual death" is in scripture. I personally never found it, so I tend to think that killing a spirit is sort of like 'shooting Casper with a 357 magnum'...

Yes, it is what happened to Adam when he sinned. On that day, he died. He didn not die physically, although that came from that. I daresay Adam would not have died if he had not sinned. Death is not of God. Even now, even though our bodies still carry the sin nature, we can choose not to walk after it, but receive our leading from our inner man in union with Spirit of God. The soul that sins shall die. It's a fruit. The wages of sin is death. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. We'll be judged by our fruits (choices).

I warn the OP and all those that read this: Consider that the Word really means what it says because one day you will stand before the throne of God and be judged. Not only for what you did, but for what you preached.

 

[MikeBigg]

Without having read the link that accompanied this, I wanted to point out to the OP that the Bible gives you the plain truth regarding Hell.

Thank you for taking the time to point this out to me - it was a long post.

However, there are other versions based on bible verses that disagree with what you have posted. I'd post a link to one, but I doubt you'd read it.

Here's a question: if hell (eternal punishment or separation) would be the result of sin, do you not think that God should have mentioned it to Adam when He told him not to eat of the tree? The true consequences may have been enough to prevent the fall.

Have you ever done a study on the word "eternal" in the NT? The results may surprise you.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[MikeBigg]

I warn the OP and all those that read this: Consider that the Word really means what it says because one day you will stand before the throne of God and be judged. Not only for what you did, but for what you preached.

I had lost track of this thread - interesting to see how it is turning out with me being warned about what I preach. Nice, considering the question was genuine and did not in anyway suggest that hell does not exist.

Anyway.

Thank you for you concern, Alive_Again, however mis-placed.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[Alive_Again]

Hello Mike.

Here's a question: if hell (eternal punishment or separation) would be the result of sin, do you not think that God should have mentioned it to Adam when He told him not to eat of the tree? The true consequences may have been enough to prevent the fall.

Have you considered when Adam sinned and was ejected from the garden that he had a lot of time to think? "God said, on that day...you'll surely die!" Yet, here I am. Adam understood that the death occurred on the inside. They realized that they were naked and ashamed. They hid from God. They knew His displeasure. All that had been was no more. Even the animals and the earth were affected. No more fellowship with God.

Adam thought long about it and like every person after him, longed for the gap to be bridged. Thank God for Jesus doing just that. But the wages of sin are still death and God never changes.

 

[Lilly Owl]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

If not, what are the options?

(I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but please lets not discuss the existence of hell in this thread - thank you).

Mike

I think Universalism gives God a better image and is more in keeping with what we're told was Christ's mission to earth. Especially when we accept God is a God of love and Jesus is a Prince of Peace.

Sheol is not at all Hell, so not believing in Hell isn't the same as not accepting the scripture that describes Sheol.

 

[Ronald]

I once asked a Jew what she was taught about hell when she was growing up. She said she never heard of hell until she was exposed to "Christianity".

Why don't you do a scriptural search/study in the OT of the word(s) "Sheol" and the "Valley of Hinnom" (Gehenna)
It is true that the Jewish understanding of the afterlife was unclear and blurry, but the learned ones where informed of it. Christ did make it more clear. When He rebuked the Pharisees, calling them white-washed tombs ... "Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?"Matt. 23:33 YLT
In other more popular translations, the word is translated Hell. Evidently the Pharisees knew what He was talking about.

And in the days of Jesus, there was a group known as Sadducee who didn't even believe in the hereafter, because they thought salvation was for this life only.

The reason is the Sadducees didn't have much hope ...they were very sad you see.

I would tend to think that those, whose only reason for believing is 'fear of eternal hell', aren't really even saved.

You would be absolutely correct. Belief in Jesus who died for our sins and rose on the third day is what saves us, not fear of hell. Although many have used that to scare and motivate people to get serious. But having a fear of a fiery destruction is healthy and real. Getting too close to the edge of a cliff over looking the Grand Canyon would be a healthy fear and good advice to stay away -- aye?

If you only believe out of fear then do you really even know of His love.[

Are you unable to realize that God is both loving and a God of Justice who will judge sins?

Interesting, so let me see if I read you correctly

;
You didn't and you are not informed, do that study.

Everyone who claimed to be a Christian, but died physically really wasn't saved then.

I didn't say or imply that, again you read me wrong. I don't appreciated people twisting and misinterpreting my words.
There are two deaths, both the consequence of the wages of sin, a physical death and a spiritual death. If you go back to the garden when God said, "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”Gen. 2:17
Did they physically die on that day? No, they died spiritually, which is what we inherit at birth, a dead spirit, disconnected to God. However, when sin came into the world, it brought physical death as well, diseases, deformities, genetic defects and so the cells in their bodies began to die -- their days were numbered.

Lastly, can you tell me where "spiritual death" is in scripture. I personally never found it, so I tend to think that killing a spirit is sort of like 'shooting Casper with a 357 magnum'....

Wow, you really need to do some studying.
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Matt. 10:28
The soul and spirit though intricately integrated can be separated. It is evident that the new spirit is contained in the (formerly empty) compartment of the soul, when we are born again. But the unsaved person (since they are already spiritually dead) is just left with his soul and body that are destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Hell).

Finally, eternal hell is a traditional doctrine taught by the church for a long time. It's just one doctrine that I don't agree with and it is my perogative to argue and test it. I could be wrong. I don't think it is an heretical notion to think that all former things created will pass away.
"and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”Rev. 21:4
Obviously, if there won't be any pain or death in heaven, so this statement must be all inclusive. Death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed (Rev. 20:14) So there will be no more death! What's left? LIFE

 

[Alive_Again]

Belief in Jesus who died for our sins and rose on the third day is what saves us, not fear of hell.

Ultimately choosing life saves us, but it is by conviction that we realize we need a savior and will go to Hell without one. The apostles preached that people should flee the wrath that is to come. That's preaching the wrath of God as well as the kingdom of God. It's an or else thing and it's important to know what the options are.

Honestly, would it make a difference to you, or others if the punishment you'd receive for not receiving Christ and obeying His Word was a continual suffering that would never end, or a short burnout and then no more torment of the separation? As for me, it makes me all the more want to obey because the penalty is extremely harsh.

On other levels, if you didn't know you would be treated exceedingly harsh for a crime, wouldn't you want to know exactly what you faced before you made your choices? Just because we didn't understand the level of righteousness and what is involved in it does not make it unjust.

 

[Hillsage]

Why don't you do a scriptural search/study in the OT of the word(s) "Sheol" and the "Valley of Hinnom" (Gehenna)

In other more popular translations, the word is translated Hell. Evidently the Pharisees knew what He was talking about.

Ron, I have done studies on sheol, gehenna and hades. You quoted a good and unbiased translation...YLT...but then lean on the "popular translations" in the end. I do not. I stick with the Literal translation which I feel doesn't suffer the bias of indoctrination.

The reason is the Sadducees didn't have much hope ...they were very sad you see.

Yes, Yes I heard that same one from a pastor of ours, many years ago. It does help one to remember how they differed from the pharisee.

You would be absolutely correct. Belief in Jesus who died for our sins and rose on the third day is what saves us, not fear of hell. Although many have used that to scare and motivate people to get serious. But having a fear of a fiery destruction is healthy and real. Getting too close to the edge of a cliff over looking the Grand Canyon would be a healthy fear and good advice to stay away -- aye?

Actually, my own brother, who is an elder in the church we attended for 23 years came to initial salvation by seeing a 'Heaven's gates Hell's flames' show at a local A of G church. So yes it can get one to make a decision...to that I do agree. But teaching someone forceful sex is wrong, by raping them, doesn't make it right.

Are you unable to realize that God is both loving and a God of Justice who will judge sins?

No, I believe I am very able. Are you that undiscerning? I very much DO believe 'He does deal justly with sins and lovingly with sinners'. You apparently don't discern that the same way I do.

I didn't say or imply that, again you read me wrong. I don't appreciated people twisting and misinterpreting my words.
There are two deaths, both the consequence of the wages of sin, a physical death and a spiritual death. If you go back to the garden when God said, "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”Gen. 2:17

Did you know that the definition of "day" in the Hebrew is also defined as a 'space of time' as determined by an associated article; age'. I think 'that article' is, contextually, before verse 17 in verses 4, 5. In that verse "day" pertains to "the day/age" before the Lord caused rain' eg. the Antedeluvian day/age. "Day in verse 5 is obviously different than the "day" of Chapter one, because vs 5 says "the DAY God made Heaven AND Earth"...an event that happened in TWO DAYS. Heaven on Day 2, and Earth on Day 3. The point of this lesson is that Adam did die PHYSICALLY in 'the day before the flood'. And "a day is as a thousand years unto the lord." The flood happened just before that first thousand year/day since creation. The short version of this in depth understanding of something poorly understood IMO is this....'The day of the locomotive' certainly wasn't 24 hours. And Adam didn't die spiritually IMO.

Read your YLT concerning that verse. "surely die" was meant as a 'death sentence' and did not mean something would die that particular day. YLT says "dying thou dost die". The Companion study bible (100 years old and still being printed...clue) says this is a Hebrasim more correctly translated as "dying thou shalt die". This is in keeping with the 'process' of sin maturing like I pointed out in James above.

Did they physically die on that day? No, they died spiritually, which is what we inherit at birth, a dead spirit, disconnected to God. However, when sin came into the world, it brought physical death as well, diseases, deformities, genetic defects and so the cells in their bodies began to die -- their days were numbered.

Orthodox, but not scriptural IMO.

JAM 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
If sin matured in one 24 hour day...we'd all be dead before we ever had a chance to get saved.

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
If you think a 'dead spirit' gives life to a body you'll need a better verse than I am standing on.

1PE 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Understand that some believe that Spirit was wrongly capitalized here. But if you want to say Jesus spirit died on the cross, we'll just have to disagree. I think he surrendered it 'alive' to the Father and his body DIED...just like James says above in 2:26.

I'll finish tomorrow. I don't like to read, or write this much. I tend to think that 'more' is usually just wasted on people who don't really don't accept too much at once. Not saying you, I don't really know you yet.

 

[MikeBigg]

Hello Mike.



Have you considered when Adam sinned and was ejected from the garden that he had a lot of time to think? "God said, on that day...you'll surely die!" Yet, here I am. Adam understood that the death occurred on the inside. They realized that they were naked and ashamed. They hid from God. They knew His displeasure. All that had been was no more. Even the animals and the earth were affected. No more fellowship with God.

Adam thought long about it and like every person after him, longed for the gap to be bridged. Thank God for Jesus doing just that. But the wages of sin are still death and God never changes.

I have considered that, yes.

Oh yes, you nicely avoided answering the question.

I'll add to it. If hell exists why was it not mentioned as a consequence of not keeping the law?

Regards,

Mike

ps please don't assume that because I ask questions like this I don't believe in hell.

 

[MikeBigg]

I'll finish tomorrow. I don't like to read, or write this much. I tend to think that 'more' is usually just wasted on people who don't really don't accept too much at once. Not saying you, I don't really know you yet.

Please be assured there are people who read and appreciate every word.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[MikeBigg]

I think Universalism gives God a better image and is more in keeping with what we're told was Christ's mission to earth. Especially when we accept God is a God of love and Jesus is a Prince of Peace.

Sheol is not at all Hell, so not believing in Hell isn't the same as not accepting the scripture that describes Sheol.

Thanks for this, Lily Owl, much appreciated.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Hillsage]

Please be assured there are people who read and appreciate every word.
Kind regards,
Mike

Thank you Mike.

OK confession time, my 63 year old eyes also hate spending too much time looking at a screen. I really like to put in a post, what fits on my screen without much scrolling. The truth also is that many of us have an elephant of a doctrinal box, and you can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.

Oh yeah, and BTW I think my elephant is grey, and everyone elses is pink.

 

[MikeBigg]

Thank you Mike.

OK confession time, my 63 year old eyes also hate spending too much time looking at a screen. I really like to put in a post, what fits on my screen without much scrolling. The truth also is that many of us have an elephant of a doctrinal box, and you can only eat an elephant one bite at a time.

Oh yeah, and BTW I think my elephant is grey, and everyone elses is pink.

LOL - I understand about the tired eyes.

I think my elephant is multi-coloured dotty

Mike

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage; Lastly, can you tell me where "spiritual death" is in scripture. I personally never found it, so I tend to think that killing a spirit is sort of like 'shooting Casper with a 357 magnum'....

Wow, you really need to do some studying.
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Matt. 10:28
The soul and spirit though intricately integrated can be separated. It is evident that the new spirit is contained in the (formerly empty) compartment of the soul, when we are born again. But the unsaved person (since they are already spiritually dead) is just left with his soul and body that are destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Hell).

"Evident" to you maybe, but not to me. I have "studied" BTW, whereas you are simply quoting the same orthodox rhetoric I too first learned from rote, but not because of true study. All this verse you quoted proves, is that the spirit isn't in the list because the spirit can't die...only the soul and body can. But we differ on our definition of 'the soul' too. I believe man is triparte. Are you biparte?

Triparte proof verse; 1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The spirit is the life/energy force. The soul is simply 'the brain at work'. The brain is part of the body/flesh.

I believe that the spirit is the 'animating' life force of the body and the soul is the 'motivating' life force'. The 'living spirit' provides the life energy to animate the body of flesh and run its computer/soul. The 'soul' is simply the 'mind, will, emotion' component consciously. Unconsciously it is the autonomic aspect of the nervous system or brain function. The autonomic NS controls unconscious function such as heart rate, respiration, metabolic activity.

Finally, eternal hell is a traditional doctrine taught by the church for a long time. It's just one doctrine that I don't agree with and it is my perogative to argue and test it. I could be wrong. I don't think it is an heretical notion to think that all former things created will pass away.
"and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”Rev. 21:4
Obviously, if there won't be any pain or death in heaven, so this statement must be all inclusive. Death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed (Rev. 20:14) So there will be no more death! What's left? LIFE

Who says 'death and Hades/grave are destroyed in the lake of fire'? It's a lake which burns with fire/purgative and Brimstone/sulfur another preservative. (No history anywhere of sulfur being for torture) The lake of fire was "the second death". So if 'death' dies in the lake what is left?...LIFE. "Our God is a comsuming fire" (lake of fire???) and his judgments consume death, grave, sin and every thing that is contrary to LIFE IMO.

 

[Hillsage]

LOL - I understand about the tired eyes.

I think my elephant is multi-coloured dotty

Mike

OK, I guess I can give you a 'pink' one with multi-colored dots.

 

[Yahu]

I believe this question is answered through the examination of the heart of God as revealed by the OT prophets, Jesus, and from Revelation. I believe that ultimately the only souls that would not be in the presence of God (in some form) would be those who absolutely deny the existence of a divine creator.

That doesn't work! There are plenty that know the truth of His existence yet still choose to oppose Him and His ways.

You still have to account for those that reject Him knowingly. Now of course they will all be in His presence at least once, their judgement.

 

[Yahu]

Being saved is not fire insurance. It is reconciliation to God. Even if there were no hell, but there is, there would be no reconciliation with God and the wrath of God would remain on them forever anyway.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)

Actually I would have to disagree here. Salvation is fire insurance but it is just the beginning. It may get you in the door but it is your sanctification process that determines your eternal position in the heavenly kingdom. Will you be on the back pew of heaven, the outer darkness? Will you be outside the gates? Or will you be sharing the throne room with a position of authority?

There will still be much weeping and nashing of teeth for those that just get fire insurance and waste the opportunities presented in this life to overcome trials and gain in heavenly riches.

The problem is a misunderstanding of Glorification, the heavenly rewards. Salvation is just the 1st step.

 

[Yahu]

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?
Mike

Part of the problem is our English translations translate many words as 'hell'. Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus are all translated as hell. Then there is the concept that the 'lake of fire' as hell.

Sheol and Hades are the Hebrew and Greek terms for the realm of the dead. ALL spirits at death would go to this realm. There are different divisions within those realms. For example Tartarus was the lowest part of Hades, the prison of the immortals, the titans. Peter used Tartarus when he referenced the pre-flood angels that had children with the daughters of man. Tartarus was the prison of those fallen angels. Tartarus is also called the 'bottomless pit' or Abyss that is opened in Revelation to release those angels back onto the earth.

Now Gehenna is Greek for the 'valley of henna/hinnom'. That was the valley outside Jerusalem where the pagan worship of Molech was conducted where the children were burned alive, ie passing the children through the fires for Molech. It was later turned into the city trash dump to desecrate the pagan holy place. That valley was used as an idiom for hell and in the old testament worship of Molech is equated to 'debasing thyself unto Sheol'. It was worship of the ruler of Sheol, ie Satan worship.

Now HaSatan is the ruler of hell, ie Sheol, Hades, but is cast into the 'lake of fire'. The lake of fire is Yah's eternal judgement. Sheol/hades are NOT. They are names of a temporary holding place for the spirits of the dead until they stand judgement. HaSatan is not in prison now. He is not being tormented but in charge of tormenting others in his realm until they submit to him.

In Revelation death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. They are NOT the same place. So when you think of hell, what place are you referring to, the eternal place of torment or the temporary holding place for spirits that have not stood judgement yet?

Will all in Sheol/Hades be cast into the lake of fire? That is the question that is debated. We know the individuals that serve the enemy will be cast there.

 

[Ronald]

I stick with the Literal translation which I feel doesn't suffer the bias of indoctrination.

OK, NAS & NKJV I use often but always check with YLT.

'Heaven's gates Hell's flames' show

Saw that in my church, I didn't approve of the scare tactic, even though it might get their attention; grace through faith is the way to go.

But teaching someone forceful sex is wrong, by raping them, doesn't make it right.

I don't follow how extrapolate this out of the topic.

Did you know that the definition of "day" in the Hebrew is ...

Stop right there! I suppose you apply that to the six days of creation as well? Something happened on that day Adam and Eve sinned. When you figure that out, you will realize what spiritual death is and that it is what we inherit. A dead spirit is one that does not have direct access, communication, connection, forgiveness, faith, hope, peace and all that we receive when we are born again. Adam and Eve lost it ON THAT DAY.
Or maybe you have a different understanding of original sin and the wages of that lead to destruction?

And "a day is as a thousand years unto the lord."

He is outside of time. The context of that scripture pertains to the "Day of the Lord", which is, I believe, the last thousand years. Judgment comes prior the Millennial Kingdom and after.

The flood happened just before that first thousand year/day since creation.

No, it happened 1656 years after creation.

Read your YLT concerning that verse. "surely die" was meant as a 'death sentence' and did not mean something would die that particular day.

That's funny, Satan told Eve the same thing, "you shall not surely die"! So, you think he was telling the truth?

JAM 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
If sin matured in one 24 hour day...we'd all be dead before we ever had a chance to get saved.

Sin didn't mature on that day, they lost something that they had. The penalty was there separation from God just as we inherit. Like a cell phone without a battery: "Hello, hello, is anyone there?

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
If you think a 'dead spirit' gives life to a body you'll need a better verse than I am standing on.

God gives life. Spiritual is not physical in any way, nor is it a power source of physical life, it is immaterial, not some energy pack. Jesus gives an example of spiritually dead people in this verse: "and Jesus said to him, `Suffer the dead to bury their own dead, and thou, having gone away, publish the reign of God.'Luke 9:60
There are a lot of dead people walking around! Is this concept foreign to you? Jesus gives us life, a new spirit!

1PE 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Understand that some believe that Spirit was wrongly capitalized here. But if you want to say Jesus spirit died on the cross, we'll just have to disagree. I think he surrendered it 'alive' to the Father and his body DIED...just like James says above in 2:26.

Made alive by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God, God is Spirit and His Spirit did not die, as you said His body did. This is not applicable to the human spirit, Jesus was never spiritually blind, without a spirit.