What Prevents The LDS From Being Saved

[Enkil]

In non canonical Secret John, Jesus says he has no name since names are given to those that are created, which he wasn't. God is simply God, no other God exists, IMO. I like that belief and fly with it.

The "secret Gospel of John" also details how 365 angels put together Adam piece by piece, and how Cain and Abel were actually the children of the Demiurge who were born with animal faces.

Why should we take it seriously in a discussion of the Bible and Christianity, versus Mormonism?

 

[Keachian]

An interesting response. So after nodding and winking at Mormonism, which your church does not do, you straight out bash Protestantism. Interesting set of priorities.

But as for who is to blame for the LDS, I blame Joseph Smith and biblical ignorance.

I think there are some large gaps and looking at other Mormon groups such as Community of Christ some of it is to blame on Young as well, however a lot of it comes in seed form from Smith.

 

[Phantasman]

That isn't the topic. You mentioned rituals. If rituals are not necessary for salvation then they need not be discussed here.

Agreed. progmonk is taking an opportunity to express his personal viewpoints on Mormonism and it's differences against Orthodox theology. The question is simple and direct, and deserves a direct answer.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

An interesting response. So after nodding and winking at Mormonism, which your church does not do, you straight out bash Protestantism. Interesting set of priorities.

But as for who is to blame for the LDS, I blame Joseph Smith and biblical ignorance.

I never supported Mormonism, I just brought out the irony that it's mainly Protestants who bash them, and they aren't exactly going by what the other 3/4 of Christianity goes by either.

If I go by your logic, the headline would read *I blame Luther, Calvin, and biblical ignorance* for the *trend they started in the 16th century* which would be *making legal fictions with Scripture collapsing into myriads of different church organizations and beliefs*

 

[Enkil]

I never supported Mormonism,

You straight out claimed they weren't non-trinitarian, and even described their theology as interesting, while not condemning the LDS rejection of salvation, whether by the Bible or according to Catholicsm. If that wasn't supporting Mormonism, I'm not sure what is.

But if you want to debate Catholicsm, or I guess Protestants, start up a thread for that topic and I'll meet you there.

 

[Phantasman]

If you believe something is necessary for salvation and it is not then you are trying to be justified by your own, not by Christ, after all Paul saying to the Galatians makes this abundantly clear, Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Circumcision? What's that got to do with salvation? You sure know how to derail a thread.

 

[Ran77]

Say that all you want but it is clear that you do not.

Whatever.

You were never saved if you have always held that the Mormon god is the God of the Bible, this is why in Col 1:16 Paul states that Jesus is the creator of all things, he is arguing against the Gnostic belief that Jesus was not creator, he is arguing against the belief that Jesus is not the one in whom the fullness of deity was pleased to dwell, if it were not an issue for their salvation Paul would not have included it, if having an unbiblical view of god here is salvific then why do you think that your prophet completely redefining Christianity for his own lusts and greed means that you are safe from the fire?

How do you know what Paul would and would not include for whatever reason? As far as I know you have not personally discussed the topic with him. Why not just stick to what is actually contained in the Bible?

I've already posted at least one you didn't address it, probably because it calls your prophet a false prophet as well.

Here are the verses you have referrenced:


Col 1: 16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(No mention of salvation what-so-ever in this verse.)



Deu 13: 1-3

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


(No mention of salvation in these verses.)



Romans 3: 23-26

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

(Nothing here that excludes LDS from salvation. In fact, the whole "freely given by his grace" would seem to state the exact opposite.)



Romans 4: 25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


(No indication that the LDS will be denied salvation.)



Eph 4: 6

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

(No exclusion of salvation mentioned in this verse either.)



Psalm 139: 7-10

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

(Seeing that God is everywhere, that would make it rather hard to avoid Him. Still, no mention of salvation being withheld from anyone.)



Jer 23: 24

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

(Once again, no mention of salvation.)


There. I have done my best to respond to evey single verse that you have mentioned. None of them hold a message of withholding salvation from a people. The closest to addressing the topic states that grace is given freely.


Your argument so far has been based on the notion that the God that is listed in the Bible that the LDS worship is somehow not the same God that is listed in the same Bibles that everyone else has access to. If that is all you have then I think we have accomplished as much discussion on the topic as is possible. Thank you for participating.

 

[Ran77]

If you believe something is necessary for salvation and it is not then you are trying to be justified by your own, not by Christ, after all Paul saying to the Galatians makes this abundantly clear, Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Ah. Interesting. Let me take a look at that and get back to you.

 

[motherprayer]

You straight out claimed they weren't non-trinitarian, and even described their theology as interesting, while not condemning the LDS rejection of salvation, whether by the Bible or according to Catholicsm. If that wasn't supporting Mormonism, I'm not sure what is.

But if you want to debate Catholicsm, or I guess Protestants, start up a thread for that topic and I'll meet you there.

Not condemning isn't the same thing as supporting. Just saying.

 

[Ran77]

Circumcision? What's that got to do with salvation? You sure know how to derail a thread.

Actually, I saw what he was getting at. Basically, if you accept the rituals that go with a set of beliefs you have given up your hold on the beliefs of Christ. At least, I think that is what he meant.

 

[Enkil]

Not condemning isn't the same thing as supporting. Just saying.

No, but saying that Mormons will be saved according to Biblical terms, is, even though Mormonism denies and does not believe in the Christian definition of salvation in the first place. You guys like that opinion, but the scripture is denigrated or ignored, as is basic logic, while Mormon doctrines are misrepresented and ignored. We might as well be debating whether or not a Muslim can be saved by Jesus Christ, despite denying Him, and you guys would spend the rest of the thread agreeing with the concept. Try this in general theology, and we'll see how far that goes.

 

[Keachian]

How do you know what Paul would and would not include for whatever reason? As far as I know you have not personally discussed the topic with him. Why not just stick to what is actually contained in the Bible?

If it wasn't an issue why was Paul addressing it?

Deu 13: 1-3

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

(No mention of salvation in these verses.)

You have hearkened to the words of Joseph Smith, abandoning the God of Christianity, you have failed the test that God has set, what does Christ say is the greatest commandment that all who wish to attain salvation must live by? Hear You men of Israel Yahweh is God, Yahweh alone, you shall love Yahweh with all your heart, all your soul. By following after Joseph Smith and his gods you have shown that you do not love Yahweh.

Romans 3: 23-26

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

(Nothing here that excludes LDS from salvation. In fact, the whole "freely given by his grace" would seem to state the exact opposite.)

Romans 4: 25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


(No indication that the LDS will be denied salvation.)

Eph 4: 6

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

(No exclusion of salvation mentioned in this verse either.)



Psalm 139: 7-10

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

(Seeing that God is everywhere, that would make it rather hard to avoid Him. Still, no mention of salvation being withheld from anyone.)



Jer 23: 24

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

(Once again, no mention of salvation.)

That you deny what these verses say is why you are denied salvation

 

[motherprayer]

Actually, I saw what he was getting at. Basically, if you accept the rituals that go with a set of beliefs you have given up your hold on the beliefs of Christ. At least, I think that is what he meant.

I guess. But, ah, I thought it was babies that got circumcized. And, ah, would a MAN really accept it? Ah, sorry, there's a seven year old boy in my head...

 

[motherprayer]

No, but saying that Mormons will be saved according to Biblical terms, is, even though Mormonism denies and does not believe in the Christian definition of salvation in the first place. You guys like that opinion, but the scripture is denigrated or ignored, as is basic logic, while Mormon doctrines are misrepresented and ignored. We might as well be debating whether or not a Muslim can be saved by Jesus Christ, despite denying Him, and you guys would spend the rest of the thread agreeing with the concept. Try this in general theology, and we'll see how far that goes.

Lol who's you guys?

 

[Keachian]

Actually, I saw what he was getting at. Basically, if you accept the rituals that go with a set of beliefs you have given up your hold on the beliefs of Christ. At least, I think that is what he meant.

Yes that's a basic understanding of what I'm getting at, but it goes deeper, it's not just accepting the rituals but seeing them as somehow efficacious towards the state of our soul.

 

[Phantasman]

Actually, I saw what he was getting at. Basically, if you accept the rituals that go with a set of beliefs you have given up your hold on the beliefs of Christ. At least, I think that is what he meant.

I took it that Paul was telling them that circumcision and following the old law was not enough. It was before Christ. The Jews believed you had to be circumcised and to follow the law of Moses. Paul was explaining that circumcision meant nothing, and neither did the whole law of Moses. For without Jesus they would not receive grace. Those things no longer were advantageous.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

You straight out claimed they weren't non-trinitarian, and even described their theology as interesting, while not condemning the LDS rejection of salvation, whether by the Bible or according to Catholicsm. If that wasn't supporting Mormonism, I'm not sure what is.

But if you want to debate Catholicsm, or I guess Protestants, start up a thread for that topic and I'll meet you there.

The belief of the Trinity is inverse in Mormon theology. Rather then the Son coming down as Jesus, the Son rose up as God.

They are not 'tri-theists' or polytheists. What you are doing is producing the same straw man a modalist might prescribe to trinitarianism.
And yes, I do find it interesting. I am naturally inquisitive. One can in fact be so without forsaking their belief.

Also, the definition of salvation between Protestantism and Catholicism is diametrically opposed to each other, so it's misleading to trump the notion they don't hold to the Christian definition of salvation unless you are simply meeting Protestants.

I was simply honest and put you both in the same boat rather then trying to rally people to bash LDS specifically.

 

[Enkil]

The belief of the Trinity is inverse in Mormon theology. Rather then God coming down as Jesus, Jesus rose up as God.

They are not 'tri-theists' or polytheists. What you are doing is producing the same straw man a modalist might prescribe to trinitarianism.

Not true. They are indeed polytheists, though perhaps the more correct word is henotheism, as used by Progmonk. That is, a polytheism that emphasizes a central deity.

From The Book of Abraham:
4:1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

"[A] plurality of gods exist . . . there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, Salt Lake: Bookcraft, 1991, 576-577).

"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]--three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization… All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster" (Joseph Smith, Teachings, 372).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings, 321).

They do indeed believe God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate gods who form a "godhead," kind of like a scaled up version of a stake presidency, but they also believe that there was a God and Goddess who produced the Father, who through another Goddess produced the son. And those Mormons who keep the Celestial law perfectly will become gods as well, and produce even more gods.

I was simply honest and put you both in the same boat rather then trying to rally people to bash LDS specifically.

You denied Catholic and biblical doctrine and expressly claimed that they would be saved, as in the very first post of this thread. At no time did you say anything about becoming Catholic, and you have not given any Catholic position in this thread.

Here is a piece of your first post: "The Bible tells something that nobody on Earth can override, even my church, and it's that a good man has nothing to fear by God. Follow the natural law, be generous, and love, and you are secured. If that is not the case, then there is no god and we have nothing to fear anyway."

So, where in Catholic theology or the Bible is any of that taught? Your protestant angle is you getting orthodox all of a sudden.

 

[Ran77]

I took it that Paul was telling them that circumcision and following the old law was not enough. It was before Christ. The Jews believed you had to be circumcised and to follow the law of Moses. Paul was explaining that circumcision meant nothing, and neither did the whole law of Moses. For without Jesus they would not receive grace. Those things no longer were advantageous.

Ah, good observation. That sounds quite reasonable. I guess I need to pull out the specific verses and read it in context.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

You denied Catholic and biblical doctrine and expressly claimed that they would be saved, as in the very first post of this thread. At no time did you say anything about becoming Catholic, and you have not given any Catholic position in this thread.

A differing metaphysical belief of the Godhead is not a salvific issue. You said yourself in the post you just provided that they believe in a central deity.
Well, that's no different then the Father, Son, and Spirit being a central deity.

And the Bible does say that we become one with God, so they probably describe that as them becoming God.

You have an unhealthy contempt for LDS, and it's detestable because your reasoning for it is based on non-salvific doctrine. Quite simply, you make it a sport to bash sects of Christianity who don't live up to every single measure of your own.
Even I as a Catholic do not resort to that, and I criticize Protestantism all the time which puts me in an even higher position to criticize LDS by your logic being that it's a denomination inspired by denominations.

Here is a piece of your first post: "The Bible tells something that nobody on Earth can override, even my church, and it's that a good man has nothing to fear by God. Follow the natural law, be generous, and love, and you are secured. If that is not the case, then there is no god and we have nothing to fear anyway."

That is true. Catholic priests say something of the same. I'm guessing you have never heard of the theology of 'invincible ignorance' and, despite what some fanatical Christian will say, it is impossible to force oneself to believe something.
Once you come back to planet Earth and realize that, you will start to see how much of a monstrosity it is to denounce good, wise people because they cannot do the impossible.