What Prevents The LDS From Being Saved

[motherprayer]

I agree that the LDS are unorthodox when compared with what is considered mainstream Christianity. I'm okay with that. In fact, I am proud of the fact that we are a peculiar people.

I am a perculiar people myself! (Er, person)

I can't help but wonder if those who are so wrapped up in having a correct "understanding" of who exactly Christ IS are kind of missing the point. Obviously, I'm not trying to say we shouldn't study theology, but we shouldn't be determining people's salvation based on their understanding of God.
I mean, my 3 year old doesn't even know her letters yet, but she loves Jesus and knows Jesus loves her. She is who I think of in regards to things like this. I mean, does anyone here actually think I should be saying to her, "Are you sure you love the RIGHT Jesus? Do you understand that Jesus was fully God and fully man?" Haha actually I should do that. She's got a great personality, and would probably give me a better answer than anyone here lol

 

[motherprayer]

Is that really the problem. Wouldn't you consider it most important that we accept God as our God? What effect on our salvation does it have if we were to get some part of our understanding of what God is wrong? Let's use the example you provided: If LDS believe that God was once a man and they are wrong, what effect does that have in the short term? in the long term? and in the matter of our salvation?

My last post relates to this as well

 

[Ran77]

I am a perculiar people myself! (Er, person)

I can't help but wonder if those who are so wrapped up in having a correct "understanding" of who exactly Christ IS are kind of missing the point. Obviously, I'm not trying to say we shouldn't study theology, but we shouldn't be determining people's salvation based on their understanding of God.
I mean, my 3 year old doesn't even know her letters yet, but she loves Jesus and knows Jesus loves her. She is who I think of in regards to things like this. I mean, does anyone here actually think I should be saying to her, "Are you sure you love the RIGHT Jesus? Do you understand that Jesus was fully God and fully man?" Haha actually I should do that. She's got a great personality, and would probably give me a better answer than anyone here lol

You make an excellent point. With the number of referrences that Jesus made to being like the little children, maybe we need to figure that into our understanding of the topic. The children certainly are not grasping advanced concepts about God - they merely love Him and that appears to be enough to set the example for us all.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Norah63]

This thread has been a most interesting read. Thanks for all the sincere thoughts.
Having been banned from some christian sites because I was raised RLDS, which I might add is not around anymore. It is easy to understand why the OP question was raised. As there is only one Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God.
And He told me to pray this way, Our Father, who art in heaven. So I do.

 

[Phantasman]

Indeed. I cannot help but wonder who, of those who live in our day, would have accepted Paul if we'd lived in his. What's more, how many, I wonder, would have accepted Jesus, himself? Who would have been among his humble followers and who would have been among those to cry, "Crucify him. Crucify him."? We can only wonder.

People have a tendency to take scriptures literal, and I believe that that is the downfall of most Christians. Jesus used parables to describe almost everything he taught, because he knew we could not understand spirituality. People believe Lazarus was in a hot burning place because Jesus has no other way to compare it to. And used a drop of water to quench, as he had nothing else to compare the spiritual equal to. John used a Lake of Fire in a vision for the same reason. The mind cannot conceive spirituality, even the Joy, nor the punishment.

Even the return of Jesus is taken literal, as people will look to the sky. But in this world, how can we see him? Which country would he appear? Spirituality would be that we would all not see the physical. Our eyes would be closed and we would see this in our mind, that has no physical limits. The satanic battle is a spiritual battle. It is the reason Jesus wanted us to prepare ourselves spiritually. Everything the New Testament tells us is to make us spiritually strong. Forget the rituals. Love conquers all. As we return love to God, he makes our enemy weak. If we love our enemy, they have nothing to fight. In the end, the enemy doesn't exist. If we hate others who follow Christ, we are only fueling the enemy that works to separate God from man. Because we think we are working for God, when we are working from our own literal interpretation of what God wants us to do.

A good person would pray "may God be with you, and the Holy Spirit guide you through our Lord Jesus Christ" in which you would say "amen" and both go their way, no matter the religion. But when someone is pounding you telling you you are not save, and not Christian........it's best that you pray for them.

 

[motherprayer]

You make an excellent point. With the number of referrences that Jesus made to being like the little children, maybe we need to figure that into our understanding of the topic. The children certainly are not grasping advanced concepts about God - they merely love Him and that appears to be enough to set the example for us all.

Thanks for your comments.

You are welcome, and thank you for the kindness you exhibit in your posts!

You highlighted in your post here just what I've been pondering on. If I ask my 3-year-old who loves her, her first response is always "Jesus!" She displays a love for Him that astonishes me, really. I know its partly a result of our lifestyle, being in ministry at church and all that, but it is honest no matter the reason.

Jesus told US to come to Him as little children, which is interesting in light of all the complex theological debates we see here. A child doesn't care about terms, or about "understanding" everything perfectly. Their language is emotion, and if we teach them love, we get them on the right track to truly understanding what Christ desires.

 

[Keachian]

From what I understand, they are not necessarily non-trinitarian, they just have a more inverse notion of God. Their mechanics in the theology are different. It's actually pretty interesting.

But you have Oneness Pentecostals who are hardcore modalists, and Seventh Day Adventists have a prophet as well who claims to have expounded revelation from God.

Why point out LDS and not these other beliefs of Christianity? Sure, LDS is much different from mainstream Christianity, but Christian churches aren't exactly sharing the same beliefs anyway. Look at mine and look at yours, for example
I find that the different theologies of justification for salvation to be exponentially more dire then differing theologies of the Godhead. God doesn't frown upon people over such doctrines- they have nothing to do with one's soul.

If a Oneness Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness is saved it is in spite of their denominational beliefs and not because of them. I'm pointing these things out in this thread because the topic is for why Mormonism is unlikely to be saved.

 

[Phantasman]

If a Oneness Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness is saved it is in spite of their denominational beliefs and not because of them. I'm pointing these things out in this thread because the topic is for why Mormonism is unlikely to be saved.

Agreed. It's the heart (core/spirit) that is saved, not the mind (which feeds it). A person doesn't even have to be of any denomination to be saved. If you believe that Jesus will return for his elect, it will probably be here and there all over the world, and in no particular church. It wouldn't surprise me if much of many churches were left behind.

 

[Keachian]

Is that really the problem. Wouldn't you consider it most important that we accept God as our God? What effect on our salvation does it have if we were to get some part of our understanding of what God is wrong? Let's use the example you provided: If LDS believe that God was once a man and they are wrong, what effect does that have in the short term? in the long term? and in the matter of our salvation?

If I were to describe Joseph Smith as a martian, with blue skin who rode across the tundra of Russia on a motorcycle, you would say that we were talking about two different people. The same is true of God, I'm not talking about something different such as oh he wore a blue coat on Tuesday when he was wearing a red one, I'm talking about a difference which makes your perception of who God is radically different from anything Christianity has seen

 

[Norah63]

Huh? That all went over my head prog.

 

[Ran77]

If I were to describe Joseph Smith as a martian, with blue skin who rode across the tundra of Russia on a motorcycle, you would say that we were talking about two different people. The same is true of God, I'm not talking about something different such as oh he wore a blue coat on Tuesday when he was wearing a red one, I'm talking about a difference which makes your perception of who God is radically different from anything Christianity has seen

I don't mean any disrespect, but I believe that your analogy is flawed. Might I recommend a different one. If you asked my children and my co-workers to describe me you would likely get very different responses. That is because each has observed me from a different set of circumstances. However, no matter the differences in their descriptions I am still the same person.

The description of God by the LDS differs from many of the other Christian churches, but it is still the God of the Bible that we worship. As you said, our perception of God is different. Are there any verses in the Bible that indicate that that will result in a loss of salvation?

 

[Ran77]

This thread has been a most interesting read. Thanks for all the sincere thoughts.
Having been banned from some christian sites because I was raised RLDS, which I might add is not around anymore. It is easy to understand why the OP question was raised. As there is only one Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God.
And He told me to pray this way, Our Father, who art in heaven. So I do.

Thank you. I am glad you have enjoyed it so far. And thank you for contributing.

 

[Enkil]

From what I understand, they are not necessarily non-trinitarian, they just have a more inverse notion of God.

Sure, if by "not necessarily non-trinitarian" you actually mean Polytheists with a central deity who aren't trinitarian at all. Historical Christianity is monotheist, a belief in only one God. The Trinity states there are three distinct persons who are each coequally just one God. The Mormon view of Elohim (the name of their God the Father), Christ and the Holy Spirit is that of a scaled up stake presidency. And they themselves are just the children of a previous God and Goddess, who were also the children of a previous God and Goddess, who all lived good Mormon lives on a different planet. I wouldn't consider it any more interesting than L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics.

Since you have a Catholic Icon, I'll point out that even the Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism or their religion as being just another denomination, though those who are baptized into a Protestant faith are, even though the Catholics think they aren't up to snuff on every doctrine.

Reading this thread is like something out of the twilight zone, where words mean whatever you want them to mean, and a person must run as fast as he can just to stay in one place.

Why point out LDS and not these other beliefs of Christianity?

Probably because the author of the thread, a Mormon, brought up the LDS beliefs and wanted to be explained why they aren't saved by the Christian definition, even though they themselves don't even believe in the Christian definition of salvation to begin with. That probably explains why everyone is on that topic. If you want us to talk about Oneness Pentecostals and Seventh Day Adventists, start a thread on it and we'll have that discussion.

I find that the different theologies of justification for salvation to be exponentially more dire then differing theologies of the Godhead. God doesn't frown upon people over such doctrines- they have nothing to do with one's soul.

Good, because not only does the LDS deny who God is, they deny the Gospel as well insomuch as they transform the good news of Jesus Christ into the good news of becoming a deity and a promise of immortality for all in one out of three heavens regardless of belief or unbelief, at least eventually.

 

[Enkil]

Some say one has to have an "accurate" understanding of exactly who Jesus was in order to be saved. But that interests me. He never gave a complex theological statement to the Samaritan woman, or the theif on the cross.

I know of a formerly Mormon couple who realized Smith was a false prophet and converted to Christianity, yet still clinged to the Book of Mormon. It took a while for them to break free of all the beliefs of the LDS, though they were certainly saved the moment they confessed their sins and depended entirely upon the grace of God for their salvation. It is the Holy Spirit who calls, who is the way which men confess Jesus and who gradually sanctifies them and teaches them all things. The same is true for me, in that I was utterly ignorant of Christianity at first, and I studied for a long time before I determined that Jesus really is God, yet I was saved the moment I heard the call.

But can one be saved who knows these doctrines, but openly preaches against them, and doesn't even believe in the Christian concept of being "saved" to begin with? The LDS are universalists, at least eventually. Whether you confess Christ or not ultimately doesn't matter so far as residing in a heaven is concerned. The aim of Mormonism, therefore, is to keep the "Celestial Law" well enough that one gets to dwell in the highest heaven so you don't get separated from your family, and if you are really good you get to have "eternal life" as defined by continued sex and marriage in the afterlife where one eternally progresses into a state of Godhood, because that is what they consider living to actually be. Those who don't still get to dwell in glorious heavens, albeit they will be eternally envious of the Mormons who paid the tithes and learned the handshakes, and Jesus will only visit them from time to time.

Here is the Apostle Paul on the subject:

Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

And the Apostle John:

2Jn 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (10) If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: (11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

If Paul had to repeat it twice that a person who would preach a different Gospel than the Apostles is accursed, can we really make light of such beliefs that radically redefine the Gospel and make it something foul, and small, and utterly fleshy? A Gospel that doesn't even believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, but rather the LDS is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

"This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Apostle Marion Romney, Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).

What greater example of usurpation of Jesus Christ, demonstrating the LDS emphasis of church over Jesus, can you get? And sure, they'll tell you they're all dedicated to God. So does every religion on the planet. The question is, are they really dedicated to the true God, or are they actually dedicated to a church that makes false promises?

Notice that not one of you who have made light of LDS beliefs, but have described such radical doctrines as being just "a little" different, never once appealed to the scriptures for such an opinion.

 

[Phantasman]

I don't mean any disrespect, but I believe that your analogy is flawed. Might I recommend a different one. If you asked my children and my co-workers to describe me you would likely get very different responses. That is because each has observed me from a different set of circumstances. However, no matter the differences in their descriptions I am still the same person.

The description of God by the LDS differs from many of the other Christian churches, but it is still the God of the Bible that we worship. As you said, our perception of God is different. Are there any verses in the Bible that indicate that that will result in a loss of salvation?

How we perceive God is not important, IMO. Some may think he appears as many things visible (burning bush) in which he talks from. Some may see him in Jesus. In the non Canonical Secret John Jesus says he cannot be seen and is a light beyond the brightest light that no one can look upon. Our minds can only attempt to comprehend God, and we are all different. But we know that the common denominator is Jesus Father. And really, we don't even know what Jesus looks like, we just know he was of human form for awhile, to make it easy for us to make the connection to spirituality.

What God is, is not important. Who he is in relationship to us, is paramount.

 

[motherprayer]

Notice that not one of you who have made light of LDS beliefs, but have described such radical doctrines as being just "a little" different, never once appealed to the scriptures for such an opinion.

For the record, I have already gone over the Scriptures, and don't feel the need to do so again

I have a story for you as well. For the longest time, I stated that I didn't believe in the Trinity. I devoted my life to Christ, and worked towards following Him every day, but to me, God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit were ONE PERSON. I didn't even understand the term Trinity until I came to Christian forums. Lol if you go back to the beginning of my posts, you will see I posted in GT, "Wait you have to believe in the Trinity to post here? Why?" I actually believed the Trinity was an unorthodox belief. Not because I had been taught wrong, but because it had never been explained to me, and therefore, I didn't realize that it is a central part of the Christian religion.

That being said, was I not "saved" until I came to a full understanding of the Trinity? Was I following the wrong God until someone explained it to me?

I guess I'm just lost of late on how exclusive some Christians make Christianity. I was told by a Catholic recently that I had to make sure I knew EXACTLY who Jesus Christ is in order to be saved, or I was following the wrong God. What? Is God really interested in semantics? This is an honest question. I'm not trying to say Muslims or whatever are doing it right, I'm not promoting universalism, but what I AM saying is, why are we so concerned with the thoughts of those who profess to be followers of Christ?

Christ wants our hearts. He wants our minds also, but if we come to Him as little children as He asked of us, then we won't even be thinking about whether He is fully God, fully man, both, or an alien who hopped off of a UFO one day lol

 

[Ran77]

How we perceive God is not important, IMO. Some may think he appears as many things visible (burning bush) in which he talks from. Some may see him in Jesus. In the non Canonical Secret John Jesus says he cannot be seen and is a light beyond the brightest light that no one can look upon. Our minds can only attempt to comprehend God, and we are all different. But we know that the common denominator is Jesus Father. And really, we don't even know what Jesus looks like, we just know he was of human form for awhile, to make it easy for us to make the connection to spirituality.

What God is, is not important. Who he is in relationship to us, is paramount.

Good post.

 

[Ran77]

For the record, I have already gone over the Scriptures, and don't feel the need to do so again

I have a story for you as well. For the longest time, I stated that I didn't believe in the Trinity. I devoted my life to Christ, and worked towards following Him every day, but to me, God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit were ONE PERSON. I didn't even understand the term Trinity until I came to Christian forums. Lol if you go back to the beginning of my posts, you will see I posted in GT, "Wait you have to believe in the Trinity to post here? Why?" I actually believed the Trinity was an unorthodox belief. Not because I had been taught wrong, but because it had never been explained to me, and therefore, I didn't realize that it is a central part of the Christian religion.

That being said, was I not "saved" until I came to a full understanding of the Trinity? Was I following the wrong God until someone explained it to me?

I guess I'm just lost of late on how exclusive some Christians make Christianity. I was told by a Catholic recently that I had to make sure I knew EXACTLY who Jesus Christ is in order to be saved, or I was following the wrong God. What? Is God really interested in semantics? This is an honest question. I'm not trying to say Muslims or whatever are doing it right, I'm not promoting universalism, but what I AM saying is, why are we so concerned with the thoughts of those who profess to be followers of Christ?

Christ wants our hearts. He wants our minds also, but if we come to Him as little children as He asked of us, then we won't even be thinking about whether He is fully God, fully man, both, or an alien who hopped off of a UFO one day lol

Excellent post.

 

[Enkil]

For the record, I have already gone over the Scriptures, and don't feel the need to do so again

You certainly didn't do so here. Please find me the scripture that says "Whosoever does not believe in Jesus gets to dwell in a lower heavenly glory, and whosoever does believe, and lives the Celestial Law of Mormonism, shall become a God. And Paul and John were just kidding about that accursed stuff, and hell, and monotheism, and..."

I have a story for you as well. For the longest time, I stated that I didn't believe in the Trinity.

What's your point? Didn't I say the same exact thing? Why make the same point that I myself made?

The question is, moving on, is Paul correct that those who preach a different Jesus are accursed? You and I were certainly saved, but if you had seen the truth and utterly rejected it, would you actually be saved? Or had you been deceived all along? And would you be saved when you didn't even believe in the concept as understood by Christ and the Apostle? Could you have saving faith in Jesus Christ while being a universalist, which declares faith isn't even required? And neither is truth? At least with you, you might have been confused on the trinity, but at least believed there was a savior who died for your personal sins whom you must confess and have faith in. Being confused about the trinity is easy. Denying the trinity and the works of Jesus Christ on the cross is hard.

Christ wants our hearts. He wants our minds also,

Right, and if one denies the words of Jesus Christ, you aren't having Him in your heart or mind. You've setup an idol, a perverted Gospel, that not only renders you powerless, but renders you powerless to help others.

Your personal works are immaterial to this situation.

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

No matter how good you think you are, or how good you think non-Christians are, you simply aren't.

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Luk_18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

The good news of Jesus Christ is that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, so that we who were dead in our sins could be saved by the glory, power, and grace of God, and not of ourselves. If that isn't your focus, you have a different Jesus.

 

[Ran77]

Reading this thread is like something out of the twilight zone . . .

Awesome. I love the Twilight Zone.