truth of the "rapture"

[Koakku]

Pre Trib ftw.

 

[ananda]

I believe in a form of removal of the unbelieving and disobedient. They are taken away in some manner (rapture?), leaving those faithful in Messiah on earth. See the order of events, for example:

in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares [the false], and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Mt 13:30

as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be ... For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage ... the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left ... Mt 24:37-40
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Who were "them" that were taken away during the great flood? The unbelieving and disobedient.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am not 100% of how the end times of Revelations will come to pass. But I trust that Christ has saved me that is all I really need.

The book of Revelation is not about end time events in any kind of direct prophetic sense.

It was written in a genre called apocalyptic writinig whicn told the story of the ultimate triumph of good over evil in a highly symbolic manner.

Christian apocalyptic writing was actually very popular, and took the story to a higher level to be about the ultimate triumph of God and the Church over evil and satan.

It was written to the people of the time to encourage them in the midst of their persecutions.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Pre Trib ftw.

Even though there is no great tribulation and it was a doctrine made up by Darby?

 

[Koakku]

Even though there is no great tribulation and it was a doctrine made up by Darby?

I've never been sure about the rapture or the things to come but i have watched sermons on the rapture and heard statements from other Christians about the pre-trib but other then that these verses have lead me to believe what I've heard al though i'm not all too sure. Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." And, Matthew 24:40-47 "40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left . 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left . 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come . 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come , he would have watched , and would not have suffered his house to be broken up . 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh . 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing . 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods ." Also Luke 21:36 "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

 

[thereselittleflower]

I've never been sure about the rapture or the things to come but i have watched sermons on the rapture and heard statements from other Christians about the pre-trib but other then that these verses have lead me to believe what I've heard al though i'm not all too sure. Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." And, Matthew 24:40-47 "40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left . 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left . 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come . 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come , he would have watched , and would not have suffered his house to be broken up . 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh . 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing . 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods ." Also Luke 21:36 "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

First, remember that anyone can make the bible say anything. What is used is a method called prooftexting. Verses are stripped from their context, and wedded to other verses removed in time and place and work and tied together as if they were written to be understood together, totally ignoring the context each was written in, the context of the time, people, culture, language, etc they were written in.

Trace this teaching back to its source. It comes from a dubious preacher named Darby, who was on the fringe of christian teaching to begin with. He made it up in the 1800's

However, there was never any such teaching in all of christianity, and it only is held to by a very small number today and only because of Darby, then people like Scofield, etc who took it up and published it for a wider audience.


For instance, the verse from Jesus:

Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."
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is not about end times, but about the destruction of the temple and the seige of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

Phillip Schaff, in his History of the Christian Church, gives us a vivid picture of the destruction of Jerusalem. "Titus (according to Josephus) intended at first to save that magnificent work of architecture, as a trophy of victory, and perhaps from some superstitious fear; and when the flames threatened to reach the Holy of Holies he forced his way through flame and smoke, over the dead and dying, to arrest the fire. But the destruction was determined by a higher decree. His own soldiers, roused to madness by the stubborn resistance, and greedy of the golden treasures, could not be restrained from the work of destruction. At first the halls around the temple were set on fire. Then a firebrand was hurled through the golden gate. When the flames arose the Jews raised a hideous yell, and tried to put out the fire; while others, clinging with a last convulsive grasp to their Messianic hopes, rested in the declaration of a false prophet, that God in the midst of the conflagration of the Temple would give a signal for the deliverance of his people. The legions vied with each other in feeding the flames, and made the unhappy people feel the full force of their unchained rage. Soon the whole prodigious structure was in a blaze and illuminated the skies. It was burned on the tenth of August, A.D. 70, the same day of the year on which, according to tradition, the first temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar." "No one," says Josephus, "can conceive a louder, more terrible shriek, than arose from all sides during the burning of the temple. The shout of victory and the jubilee of the legions sounded through the wailing of the people, now surrounded with fire and sword, upon the mountain, and throughout the city. The echo from all the mountains around, even to Perea (?), increased the deafening roar. Yet the misery itself was more terrible than this disorder. The hill on which the temple stood was seething hot, and seemed enveloped to its base in one sheet of flame. The blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain were more in number than those that slew them. The ground was nowhere visible. All was covered with corpses ; over these heaps the soldiers pursued the fugitives." The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy. Thus was fulfilled the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place." (Philip Schaff, vol. 1 pp. 397-398).
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The temple was detroyed and has never been rebuilt. . and so Jesus' words are true. . . " ...no, and never will be" and perfectly in keeping with the destuction of the Temple.

 

[Purge187]

One other point: the Tribulation primarily serves to punish the world for rebelling against God, so it would stand to reason that the Church would be excluded somehow.

 

[thereselittleflower]

One other point: the Tribulation primarily serves to punish the world for rebelling against God, so it would stand to reason that the Church would be excluded somehow.

No, there is no great tribulation. The tribulation Jesus fortold already happened. See my post above. It is a myth, created by Darby. Why run after myths and fables?

 

[simonthezealot]

The concept of the rapture has been around since the early church, Ephraim the Syrian wrote of it... Rapture in latin is rapturo and is found in Jerome's vulgate.
Even Irenaeus wrote on it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Tribulation is known as the "Day of Wrath."

Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

We are not scheduled to go through it:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[CityOfGod]

Jesus taught on his second coming. This second coming is referred to the "Day of the Lord". This word "day" means epoch or season. It lasts more than a literal day. It's when God's judgments will be thrown onto the earth against lawlessness and rebellion. It is when the wrath of God will come upon all who live on the earth. It precedes when the Lord will return physically and reign for 1000 years. It's a 7 year tribulation period where the anti-Christ is introduced, and the beast.

But Paul was revealed some mysteries that weren't known in the old-testament. One was that Gentiles would be saved too. He was also revealed another mystery - the snatching up of the church before the Day of the Lord. The word "rapture" is fairly new. People use this argument to say it's a new idea and Paul never intended to convince believers in the rapture. But the notion or idea of a rapture is most biblical, found in 1 Thes 4:13-18, and especially in 1 Cor 15:50-53, where he describes this wonderful "secret" or "mystery", as he puts it.

In 1 Thes 5:1-11 Paul reverts then to the Day of the Lord, what Jesus had talked about, and he said "you don't need to be told about the day of the Lord," because Paul had already taught the Thessalonians this subject. What he wanted to emphasize now was this great mystery of the church being taken away before the Day of the Lord came, in chapter 4.

So, there are no prophesies we're waiting on for the snatching away of the church. It could happen anytime. Immediately when the church is gone, the Holy Spirit will be gone from the earth, and there will be great chaos from the absence of the Spirit of God, and from the absence of the Christians.

In 2 Thes 2:7 describes the absence of the Spirit of God will enable the anti-Christ to start his rule. He will have no moral compass, and will eventually force people to worship him as God.

Immediately after the snatching away of the church, there will be people who will come to the Lord. They had not been saved, but they will know what happened, and will believe in God thru remembering the testimonies of the church when it was on earth. They will be in danger of the anti-Christ, and many will be martyrs for Jesus.

God said that he didn't appoint his children to wrath, but for deliverance and salvation. This all to say, that the "rapture" is very real. Paul wanted us not to be ignorant of this mystery. It's a source of comfort, and a source of encouragement.

You live in a nice fairy tale land.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The concept of the rapture has been around since the early church, Ephraim the Syrian wrote of it... Rapture in latin is rapturo and is found in Jerome's vulgate.
Even Irenaeus wrote on it.

Darby's concept was not. He hijacked a word and created a made up doctrine.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Tribulation is known as the "Day of Wrath."

Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

We are not scheduled to go through it:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And it's not some 7 year Great Tribulation either.

The earth will burn up and melt with a fervrent heat.

 

[simonthezealot]

Darby's concept was not. He hijacked a word and created a made up doctrine.

LOL, one that was believed in the early church and is anchored in scripture.

 

[brinny]

Jesus taught on his second coming. This second coming is referred to the "Day of the Lord". This word "day" means epoch or season. It lasts more than a literal day. It's when God's judgments will be thrown onto the earth against lawlessness and rebellion. It is when the wrath of God will come upon all who live on the earth. It precedes when the Lord will return physically and reign for 1000 years. It's a 7 year tribulation period where the anti-Christ is introduced, and the beast.

But Paul was revealed some mysteries that weren't known in the old-testament. One was that Gentiles would be saved too. He was also revealed another mystery - the snatching up of the church before the Day of the Lord. The word "rapture" is fairly new. People use this argument to say it's a new idea and Paul never intended to convince believers in the rapture. But the notion or idea of a rapture is most biblical, found in 1 Thes 4:13-18, and especially in 1 Cor 15:50-53, where he describes this wonderful "secret" or "mystery", as he puts it.

In 1 Thes 5:1-11 Paul reverts then to the Day of the Lord, what Jesus had talked about, and he said "you don't need to be told about the day of the Lord," because Paul had already taught the Thessalonians this subject. What he wanted to emphasize now was this great mystery of the church being taken away before the Day of the Lord came, in chapter 4.

So, there are no prophesies we're waiting on for the snatching away of the church. It could happen anytime. Immediately when the church is gone, the Holy Spirit will be gone from the earth, and there will be great chaos from the absence of the Spirit of God, and from the absence of the Christians.

In 2 Thes 2:7 describes the absence of the Spirit of God will enable the anti-Christ to start his rule. He will have no moral compass, and will eventually force people to worship him as God.

Immediately after the snatching away of the church, there will be people who will come to the Lord. They had not been saved, but they will know what happened, and will believe in God thru remembering the testimonies of the church when it was on earth. They will be in danger of the anti-Christ, and many will be martyrs for Jesus.

God said that he didn't appoint his children to wrath, but for deliverance and salvation. This all to say, that the "rapture" is very real. Paul wanted us not to be ignorant of this mystery. It's a source of comfort, and a source of encouragement.

Does rapture mean "caught up in the air (clouds)"?

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~I Thessalonians 4:17

 

[thereselittleflower]

LOL, one that was believed in the early church and is anchored in scripture.

Do you understand the difference between a word and a doctrine?

 

[AV1611VET]

And it's not some 7 year Great Tribulation either.

I don't know my eschatology that well, but I believe the Great Tribulation is the last 3½ years of the Tribulation period.

The earth will burn up and melt with a fervrent heat.

That occurs after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

 

[AV1611VET]

Does rapture mean "caught up in the air (clouds)"?

Yes, mam!

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't know my eschatology that well, but I believe the Great Tribulation is the last 3½ years of the Tribulation period.

That occurs after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

See that's my point. . there is no 3.5 years of tribulation, no 7 years of tribulation, no millenial reigh of Christ on earth for 1000 years.

This was all made up by Darby and dispensationalists that came after him. When Christ comes back and snatches us up in the air, that is the end. right there .. there is nothing more on earth that happens.

When you peel back the layers of thet dispensational teachings, you are left with nothing.

 

[CityOfGod]

I don't know my eschatology that well

You're right you don't know your eschatology.